Sunday 11 April 2010


Norman Grubb made it clear that apostles were just "father level" ministries.Apostles are not church builders as is meant commonly here and in America. We use the term to mean people who can establish structured churches, installing a CEO pastor as head submitting to a "man's apostleship".
Real apostles just reproduce Christ in other believers. Such that they believe and walk in the knowledge that they are Christ as them.
When real apostles establish churches, they "pin" people down in the Spirit to believing that their local church is The Church in that locality, as per Watchman Nee. You can have many local churches in the same area....but ofcourse they will have a different location or street. Their function or calling will be designated by God in every case....but nevertheless they are the Church.

The walk of faith is
- "pinned down"
- is specific.
-Is the Kingdom of heaven fixed covenantally, tethered covenantally to the Earth in the hearts of believers.

Right now, we are Christ going on as individuals.
Right now we are the only one Church going on as a group of believers.

This specificity marked the callings and ministries of Ern Baxter, Ed Miller,and Jorge Pradas.
It is debatable whether the more general leadership in this country is tied down enough in their specificity. is specific. It is believing the precise thing God says about us. Muzziness
does not work. It's the difference between Portmouth UK mooting the eventual possibility of a monorail round the bay....
and John F Kennedy saying "In 10 years we will have someone on the moon!" Only one of these has taken place!
Dan Bowen was decrying the passing of various "apostolic" leaders from the 70s, wondering who was going to take their place. Somewhat stirred I wrote this in his comment section.

You and I believe totally different about this. You are still at home in teaching houses that call themselves churches. So by that criteria Tony Morton Bryn Jones and Terry Virgo are apostles.

The revelation handed down to us in the scriptures is all we have. So we can only go on what is there and what isn't there.

By virtue of his authority people like St Paul DID DO long teaching sessions to which everyone listened. We know that because someone fell out of the window and had to be brought back to life.



My first ever post up on Dan's...or anyone's blog- click on The Knowledge London taxi pic above and scroll right down to the middle of the comments section to see the original

Chris said...
A safer view of ministries has been stated by Ed Miller who helped father the 50s Argentine breakthrough, and various subsequent moves. He talks of them as taxi drivers.Taxi drivers to the throne of God. Once they have done their task, they actually have less relevance. The end goal of ministry being to reproduce Christ in others.
03 February, 2008 10:18

Dan Bowen said...
Thanks Chris that is a really helpful view of ministries that I haven't really considered before. "Taxi drivers" to the throne. I like it. Lots. The suggestion then (although you didn't say it) is that it is healthy and fitting for ministries once they have completed their God-given task to step aside and fade into other duties, maybe not so prominent. And then as you say - allow other ministries to step forward and continue leading.

It is an incredibly wise and experienced and brave man I think who can walk in intimacy with God so much that he knows when he has had his time in the limelight and it is now time to walk with God behind the scenes. Such is the "heady wine" of conference platforms and prominence.

Maybe if more ministries could grasp that concept then spiritual casualties would be less.

04 February, 2008 00:47


So I am not saying that what Bryn,Terry and Tony did is not a part of it. But it is essential that you get around some third levellers, more like Ern himself. because at the moment you describe all these figures as if they are in some way equal. They are not at all equal. You cannot put these three in the same category at all.
All three are more like superwarmed up Baptist preachers and teachers with a human capacity for organising structures like administrators.

An apostle is something in the spirit or nothing at all. He leaves behind him a trail of
self-standing people who themselves reproduce the same Word that they have eaten

I'm sorry, but this is NOT true of Terry, Bryn and Tony.

As a first generation thing of people finding their way in the religious darkness left in its wake by nearly apostate churches throughout Britain, God has honoured them and continues to honour their advances.

But unlike Ern, who himself only skirted around the edges of what his private secretary George Warnock had to share with him about Galations 2:20, Bryn ,Terry and Tony only shared about the early principles of moving in the Spirit.

They have no real clue about the last session Jesus had with the disciples in John13-17.The clearer you see it in the Spirit, the clearer you will understand what has been going on in Britain, and the very real and rebellious cut off that occurred in 1979-80 when Jesus specifically brought in many thirdlevellers to share,
but it was a Kadesh Barnea moment.
At that point The UK closed its heart and became a "closed" wilderness zone...basically frozen in its level of doctrine until things started opening again, interestingly enough, roughly when you made the decision to start your blog.

While i greatly benefit from men of the calibre of Greg Haslam who came here 2 weeks ago, I can tell you really clearly Greg has no clue yet as to the existence of a third level, still preaching as they all do,
adding to your salvation with various activities that are going to make God like you more.

Terry says some great things about grace as you know....but like Greg
that's the edge of what he knows.

Whenever you talk of maturity and authority it seems to be in terms of either the amount of people that fall down at once, or to a human authority thing born of many years study. Well John Stott has tremendous intellectual clarity and authority in his studies, but where was he during the Bible Weeks?
There is only one Melchizedek order which people choose inside of themselves to be a part of or not. This is a unique form of authority which opens and closes doors in the earth. It has nothing to do with tickling the ears of Dan Bowen with yet another insight into the New Testament so he can share it on his blog.

(If you think this is unusually abrupt- I am getting the same treatment from thirdlevellers...if that means anything) End of comment.
The truth is there are a whole host of third levellers or apostles stacked up ready right now!
You laugh.
They were there in the 40s and 50s. They were there in the 70s and 80s.
And they are there in the wings right now. Like Jesus. Knocking at your door. Patiently. It is you Church that are refusing them entrance. Because of the cost!

John 7.19If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God.... The first step is always being willing.....then the teacher appears!!!!


Dan Bowen said...

I do see what you are saying here and find it incredibly interesting. My thoughts centre around probably the most helpful definition of "apostle" that I heard David Holden give in Brighton. He had a four stage defintion.

1. Spiritual fathers.
2. Church planters.
3. Teachers of doctrine.
4. Imparters of the Holy Spirit.

So with that definition in mind, it's interesting to apply it to Ern, Bryn, Terry, Tony (you will have to advise me where it fits into the levels!).

1. Spiritual fathers - Ern and Terry definately. Bryn and Tony I don't know quite so well.

2. Church planters - Terry directly. Ern somewhat more indirectly. Bryn and Tony I think so.

3. Teachers of doctrine - all check.

4. Imparters of the Holy Spirit.

Now THIS is where I think many so-called "apostles" fall down. For example - C J Mahaney of SGM. I think he falls on the "spiritual father" front but also here. Does he either through the laying on of his hands or his teaching impart the Spirit?

Ern and Terry both do. Bryn did. Tony did. But the imparting of the Spirit is a crucial step I think for any 3rd level consideration.

That's a bit more where my thought processes lie with this four step definition.

Should we be adding to these definitions maybe with the developments of time since the 70s and 80s?

Chris Welch - 07000INTUNE said...

1 a spiritual father knows Him who is from the beginning...where "knows" speaks of intimate more...fusion. It is incredibly specific in the Spirit. A 16 year old can produce babies as a biological father without having a clue how real fatherhood works in terms of transferring identity. He may still be a child himself.
2. A church planter has come to mean a person who rents a hall, puts on a show type meeting with him as the showman or central figure until he has identified another strong character to run meetings who he will call a pastor.
In the Bible a church planter is specifically one who lays the unique revelation of Jesus Christ being our sole life, and the benefits of the Cross in agroup of people. Because the life is real, the church becomes an organism that self-builds into Christ. Pastors emerge, as well as other ministries, and a shared authority emerges by general consensus in the Spirit. See Jack Fortenbery's Corinthian elders. There IS no single pastor or head...that is ofcourse Christ Himself.
3. Teachers of doctrine in the UK means people skilled in left-brain knowledge of the general historical consensus of what Church doctrine is. Teachers of doctrine in the Bible would be people able to share the doctrine the Holy Spirit has revealed to them from the scriptures. It is a message of life."what has been handled touched and tasted" of the life of Christ within them.It is directly associated to the phrase mentioned earlier referring to the mature. " Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." Once you know the doctrine of Christ being your life, and being your righteousness, you take that revelation into life with you, and develop a feel for it in every situation in your life. After a good time you develop an ability to articulate it.
4. Imparters of the Spirit
Puzzling this one, since Christine and I were doing this at 14, but I don't think that made us apostles.

I do know that fathers impart the Spirit when they teach. People walk into their doctrine. They impart the same grace and truth that was characteristic of Jesus.

What was fuzzy and non-defined in the first generation of building new churches, now has a lot more clarity since Norman's final assault on what Romans and the other letters are on about in "Yes I am", reproduced in full in the link on my blog.