Tuesday 23 September 2014

The EX-Exclusives speak out on Facebook

What are some of the telltale signs that something is off kilter? Well Jesus Himself gave quite a run down in both chapter 6 of Matthew and later in chapter 23.But any people anywhere that turn back from following the Holy Spirit closely will find all the same independent self traits filing back in like expelled demons, only when they return ,they return 7 times stronger than before.
I had never really met Plymouth Brethren until I met those expelled for reasons of baptism in the Spirit. Ian McCulloch and his brother David who were in Emsworth Christian Church were both "mish kids" out in Argentina of a family that were
with the Brethren. When Ian was baptised in the Spirit he lost his own missionary position so returned to England, which was a blessing for our lives....but one wonders what he wasn't able to accomplish in missionary work because they stopped it!!!
Apparently the new ruler in chief of the Exclusive Brethren clan is a man called Bruce Hales....see what you can glean from Ex Exclusives picking over the ashes....

I tune pianos for Brethren clients. Actually they are very conducive to tuning because the lounges are always sparsely furnished, easy on the eye and not distracting. The atmosphere can be a bit Stepford wives with nothing out of place, which makes me wonder how many of the brethren pyramid structures have themselves been infiltrated by other Rothschild layering. Scientology establishments can have the same Stepford wives sterility. So about four things give away a Brethren house 1. the wives are house wives yet peculiarly they survive very well on a single male income. 2. the rooms are immaculate and simply furnished. 3. there is no TV but they will probably likely have a piano. and 4. the bookcases will appear to be stacked out with the same coloured book, but these are in fact collections of sermons from the history of the Brethren movement.

Facebook Group Ex Exclusive Brethren  27 July 2013 · Edited

****NOTE:****** This is a public group, anyone can read, but must be a member to be able to post.
It has been a number of weeks since one of the Administrators left this group for good reasons. So far, this group has managed to fumble along for itself which would be good if it continues as such. It would save a lot of stress, complaints both publicly and privately and it would be a shame if this group had to close down. Beginning tomorrow, there will be no hesitation in immediately removing any offending remarks when possible, that may be seen as hurtful to others. Keep calm and think before you speak.
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News FeedJane Von Der Becke
16 September at 19:19

I have been pondering the irony of a group who are so anti Catholic/Pope themselves setting up an elect vessel through whom all decisions have to be made.It is unbelievable really.All the teaching in the Bible about there being 'one mediator' and the curtain to the holy of holies being torn in two to give us direct access. Why oh why do they all give such importance to such an unpleasant and power seeking man. I can understand giving respect and honour to someone humble,Christlike and godly but what on the earth do they respect about Bruce??
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15 people like this.

Graham Westie Nason it's not respect, it's "blind dogmatism"
16 September at 19:25 · Like · 1

Heather Mary Porter His immense girth ????
16 September at 19:35 · Like · 1

Chris Donald remember if anyone disagrees with bruce allmighty they would be joining our ranks within a hour or so....
16 September at 20:00 · Like · 4

Gordon Martin Fear of being blackmailed and cut off from family by the cult that has taken over every element of their lives. That's why we can call them a cult since 1959-60. More moderate at the beginning with some "no no's" but the individual's conscience was respected.. ... Now it's ruthless response to the so-called "Man of God" who has co-opted the individual's conscience.. Yes Jane, Brucie & gang have become much worse than the once disdained (by the Breth) Pope in the Vatican.
16 September at 20:19 · Like · 6

Heather Mary Porter The Pope is a lovely man and walks with the people ,doesn't ride in a blacked out windowed limo
16 September at 20:41 · Like · 3

Glenys Dent Exactly right Gordon
16 September at 22:22 · Like

Ann Kerr Jane in the 50's if you were asked about your minister by outsiders we would answer we don't have one. The connection for Australia (Sydney in particular) was when JT jnr's daughter married Bruce Hales snr. from that point it took off and the Hales were royalty. Prob there was a hot line to USA ! The type of man you describe as one you could respect etc was side-lined there were many mature in the faith Christians who could have led the brethren. The open brethren haven't had the same problem but their numbers have diminished over time. Mmmm still too strict, I like the fact God gave me a brain and a conscience!!
16 September at 22:33 · Like · 3

Gordon Martin Yes, it was very difficult for the then young me to know what to say to non-EB buddies about our non-religion religion!
16 September at 22:59 · Like · 1

Ken Wallis There are a number of differences between the Pope and the "elect vessel ". The pope is elected by a semi democratic process.... The ev is elected by his former ev. There is already joking for this position within the PBcc now. If it is possible to be worse it is looking favourable . The pope has a heart for the people the ev has only a heart for himself and his possition. It is the congregation that suffers and anyone that may ask a question not considered favourable to the ev.
17 September at 01:34 · Like · 3

Gordon Martin Agreed Ken! I find nothing "spiritual" in today's Brethren. They will make superficial changes because of the Charities Commission. As to the "flock" they're being well-fleeced and unable to respond for fear of losing family contacts, and also their income if they're tied into the "system". They may mumble their prayers and join in the hymns, but there is nothing but ritual in their meaning. Interesting how "business" especially in Oz and .."strilia" have become so prominent in their role. Clutched from NYC and the Taylors who had their kick at the can.
17 September at 01:46 · Like · 2

Derek Kelly Yup its a ritual
17 September at 02:52 · Like · 1

James Hamilton a day will come, if people want to keep following him - they are the silly ones
17 September at 06:36 · Like · 1

Jane Von Der Becke I still get the impression that the elderly brethren who still would not have tv/computers and who are well removed from what is going on centrally, would not necessarily fear him but not sure if they revere him or just try and carry on like he is not there. I have met some dear old brethren through my line of work who quite genuinely love the Lord but when I chat to them and 'fess up to who I am, they can't help themselves trying to get me back 'in'. Next time I will ask what they think of Hales and see what reaction I get. It really is SO weird when you follow a doctrine of non elected leadership. CRAZY.
17 September at 07:30 · Like · 3

Alistair Deayton I remember in the late sixties some old front row brother in Glasgow saying the J T Jr. that if we didn't do something or other, and I forget, what it was, he would be the Brethren Pope. Can't remember Mr Jim's reply though
17 September at 08:09 · Like · 2

Eleanor Wills I remember how quickly younger brothers especially got behind JTJnr. They couldn't get enough of the alcoholic. 2 Timothy 2 was quoted ad nauseam and self appointed spies popped up to ensure that the many contradictory rules were being followed. I wonder why the generations were so different. Perhaps the older gentler brethren were shaped by the hardships of the 1930s Depression and the Wars whereas the younger generation who here in Aust. had things pretty easy were bored with living a simple life and wanted to feel important.
17 September at 09:46 · Edited · Like · 2

Ann Kerr Eleanor my thoughts are that up until late 50's there were plenty of genuine Christians there. Young ones were spied on it has always been a very judgmental church. Once the senior Hales dictatorship took hold older very genuine brethren just had to go along with their orders. When alcohol was forced upon everyone, the older brethren found that difficult to accept as it was foreign territory to most. In my opinion that was the beginning of the downfall of the peebs. JT jnr is proof of the damage that was caused.
17 September at 11:14 · Like · 2

Ken Wallis Eleanor Wills, have you noticed that the part of 2 Timothy 2 quoted and forced on members, is not scripture? JND inserted it in brackets. ( In separating himself from them) Although Revelation tells us what becomes of someone adding to the word, I doubt JND intended it to be used as gospel, but who knows?You will not find these words in the originals or King James Version and I believe they are not part of Gods word. Little wonder this church has descended into a cult.
17 September at 11:39 · Like · 4

Jane Von Der Becke I think the current PBCC version of the Bible has removed the brackets....so if any PBCC are reading this and want the truth....get yourselves an old copy of JND's KJB and see for yourselves that (in separating himself from them) is inserted/added by JND in 2 Tim 2 v 21 and the whole basis of separation in PBCC is based on a thought by JND which is not in original texts of scripture. How the devil must be laughing! All that hurt/pain and family division caused by quoting a scripture that is not even real. No wonder there is a scripture warning severely against adding to the word on God....see the consequences it can have!
17 September at 12:13 · Like · 3

Glenys Dent A very good post Ken, we were forbidden from reading any other Bible translation, so we all grew up knowing nothing other than the JND version and the much mis-interpretation and twisting of scripture, that so often occurred in effort to justify the extreme ideologies that crept in particularly after JTJnr took over and this got worse and more rules were added to the list with each takeover that followed up to JSH.
Things have changed dramatically for the worse with the self-appointment of BDH. The HEBs have now become a full blown extremist CULT with no principles or Christian morals.
17 September at 12:37 · Like · 3

Eleanor Wills I was referring to 2 Timothy2.19. - 'Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal,[The] Lord knows those that are his; and,Let everyone who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity'. This was the Scripture that was quoted over and over to back the Separation Doctrine in 1959 and through the 1960s..
17 September at 13:23 · Like

Ken Wallis Yes Eleanor Wills that bit is scripture and stands, however the enfaces on separation was on the words that we're never scripture. " in separating himself from them"
17 September at 14:25 · Like · 2

Gordon Martin Who decided what was "iniquitous" ?
17 September at 14:50 · Like · 1

Deb Ghinn Who decided that one must busily separate from iniquity in others, rather than just in one's self?
17 September at 15:37 · Edited · Like · 3

Bevan Thomas it came about through applying the separation doctrine to their physical lives, it is only intended to apply to the spiritual life... in fact they seem to apply scripture entirely to their physical life when most of it is intended for a spiritual application. There is a qualifying verse that states no one can separate from sin physically, they would have to depart the earth.
17 September at 21:55 · Like · 2

Jill Moxham So true, Bevan. I've often reflected how impossible it is to live a 'spiritual' life in there because it's application is so distorted. They see what is regarded as 'spirit' - as having evil connotations. They believe in a 'holy spirit' which is anything but what they demonstrate. They are so removed from 'spirit' its not funny - their application of scriptural references being acted out literally, proves such.
17 September at 22:55 · Edited · Like · 1

Bevan Thomas I have a theory that this came about by their focussing on Paul's teachings and forgetting about the teachings of Jesus, who regularly explained to the disciples the spiritual meaning and application of His physical sounding messages. Paul being a lawyer appears very legalistic when taken on his own and that I believe is where the eb's seriously stuffed up.
17 September at 23:03 · Like

Gordon Martin Frankly I just think that it was corruption cloaked with nit-picking of scriptures. "Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely" as the saying goes.
17 September at 23:18 · Like · 3

Jill Moxham The 'Elect's' being the descended line of 'Paul's'.( So often I've heard that, that it flew over my head). Now it begins to makes more sense - I wondered why Jesus's teachings weren't followed more!.
17 September at 23:34 · Like · 3

Greg Morris "Power TENDS to corrupt" is thw actual quote. The point about physical / spiritual separation is important but I think that if we are united with Christ and dedicate ourselves to holding fast to him, we will be holy by connection to him as opposed to holy by separation from other Christians. This does not exclude physical separation which might at times be required in some circumstances.
18 September at 08:11 · Edited · Like · 1

Jane Von Der Becke hey Greg......wondered when you would turn up....where've you been?!
18 September at 08:32 · Like

Greg Morris The brackets in 2 Timothy are quite legitimate as far as I can see. It is intended to convey the idea that purifying oneself requires movement: the complexity of such action is shown in the other instance of this verb (cited by Darby in his note on 2 Tim) 1 Cor 5:7 where the purging out seems to be physical albeit with spiritual consequences. in my 1920s version there are no brackets at all which would indicate that this interpretation of JNDs is acceptable to Exclusive Brethren generally not just Taylorites. Which explains the readiness of all branches of EB to divide rather than unite.
18 September at 08:37 · Like

Jane Von Der Becke but is removing the brackets legitimate?
18 September at 08:38 · Like

Eleanor Wills My understanding of Scripture is that an interpretation (brackets or not) is dependent on its readers' connection with the written word. I'm not sure if the word legitimate is useful here. All religions have their Bible so it is tricky to label one Bible more legitimate than another.
18 September at 08:44 · Like

Alistair Deayton The Amplified Bible puts 2 Timothy 2:21 as
" So whoever cleanses himself [from what is ignoble and unclean, who separates himself from contact with contaminating and corrupting influences] "
not physical separation
18 September at 08:49 · Like

Greg Morris Lol it depends if they were there in the first place. You will be shocked to hear, Janey, that I don't have a copy of the 1st edition. To some extent it is an editorial decision. The French version reads "Si donc quelqu'un se purifie de ceux-ci" no additional explanation is required as the reflexive nature of the verb indicates some sort of movement is required. Deb Ghinn's observation is very true: we are often very keen to purify others rather than turn the spotlight on ourselves.
18 September at 08:50 · Like

Greg Morris Darby's Translation is far from perfect. it was intended as a study bible to bring to believers the fruits of the latest textual criticism. Darby and other PBs were terribly excited at the discovery of Greek MSS which they believed would bring about a more stable Greek New Testament text based on better analysis to discern which were the most reliable texts. in that aim, JND was in the mainstream of 19th century scholarship. He went one step further. He provided detailed textual notes indicating how the versions divide up on a particular verse and what weight he gives to the ancient MSS and "modern" eg 16th century printed versions. So he is being quite open about showing how he arrives at his translation. He accepted that the AV was in desperate need of correction but does not suggest that his translation should be used in public readings of the Word. The 1881 hymnbook was bound with the AV not the "New Translation"
18 September at 09:07 · Like

Greg Morris The Amplified Bible given by Alistair seems to me to show that JND with or without brackets is quite orthodox in his translation. How his followers interpret the translation is another story!
18 September at 09:14 · Edited · Like

Bevan Thomas Greg, I prefer your point holy by connection than by personal action, 1 Cor 1:30 explains it perfectly that Christ is our righteousness, holiness and redemption which makes connection with Him the only option.
18 September at 12:12 · Like

Gordon Martin The behaviour of people to others seems to me to be more important than nit-picking over translations. The basic message of the New Testament is caring, forgiving and sacrificing for others.
18 September at 13:28 · Like · 5

Eleanor Wills I agree Gordon. The EB experience put me right off religion. I know that there are good people within the EB as there are anywhere but when one puts religion before humanity like many of our families have done then their so called Christianity is a farce. Who cares what a person believes in so long as that person behaves in a civilised way. When I left home I was amazed by the kindness and understanding that came from people outside. It was the first time that humanity was shown to me.
20 September at 12:46 · Like · 6

Bevan Thomas Yep I doubt anyone would disagree, that's what love is isn't it Gordon and Eleanor, people before anything? Perhaps it might be different for others but the REASON I like to nit-pick interpretations is to find where they went wrong so I can avoid anything like it again and maybe even turn the genuine ones from their ways. my motive is people first unconditionally. The interesting thing about religious authority is that the people under them demand it, feel secure under it and feel righteous when they obey it, they don't follow God they follow human authority manipulating God, the people insist on it. How can you fight that?
21 September at 01:41 · Like · 4

Greg Morris Spot on, Bevan. I would add that if nit-picking gives us a more reliable text of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles and other Versions, we will not be worse off but greatly enriched.
21 September at 08:47 · Like

Deb Ghinn Jane I think it is EB habit (certainly Taylorite EB) to just automatically tell themselves that their leader IS humble,Christlike and godly no matter what they get up to. Those three descriptors can be used to cover a multitude of sins and character traits and behaviours, when one is not using one's critical faculties properly (or never got to develop them in the first place).
21 September at 09:32 · Like · 3

Gordon Martin Each of us has a personal approach to understanding the Bible. Obviously some like the Breth can use it to support their disgusting behaviour. And then there are those who have never read or heard the Bible who can be kinder and more forgiving than those who poke their noses into the "Good Book" every day.
21 September at 11:59 · Like · 1

Jane Von Der Becke I guess in the days of the 'no internet / computers' ruling it must have been hard for UK EB to know much about what the MOG was up to but these days I hope a few of them have enough curiosity to read some of these posts and at least start to wonder whether he is quite as special as he would like them to believe!
21 September at 18:08 · Like · 4

Ken Wallis Jane, just read the spin by. Tony McCorkel in the nz press covering the mog visit to nz. They are using the very services' they banned and withdrew from people for using to keep the flock with the wool over their eyes. The only way they are" not that different" is the fact that so many, including Tony are morbidly obese. And even in that the percentage is way above average,but it's ok because the mog is.
21 September at 23:57 · Like · 2

Ash Ghinn I got into bible translation styles once, but I've seriously lapsed! There's a whole range of styles from "formal equivalence" (like Darby and KJV) where they try and translate word for word and keep the original form, right through to paraphrase (like Good News), where they forget original form and rephrase each sentence to be best understood in the reader's language.

So the formal equivalence method would translate the French phrase "que est-ce que ce est?" as "what is it that it is?", whereas the paraphrase method would translate it as "what is it?" or "what's that?".

People argue endlessly about the superiority of each translating method, with those preferring a more literal "formal equivalence" style usually bemoaning those awful paraphrase translators for taking liberties with the original text and putting their own fanciful interpretation on the words. So for Darby to provide a detailed description ("in separating himself from them") to the original writer's meaning of the word "ekkathairo" (to cleanse) he makes a big departure from the traditional formal equivalence principle, and must have been cock sure of himself to do so.
Yesterday at 04:14 · Like · 4

Greg Morris Darby doesn't strike me as a man lacking in confidence! Most translations of this word are translating as it were kathairo to purify or cleanse. I think Darby is trying to bring out the nuance of ekk which in classical authors seems to be understood as purging out thoroughly. Tyndale often drops the formal equivalence to excellent effect. Joseph was a "lucky fellow". On the other hand he recognises a good metaphor can be literally translated. "The eyelids of the dawn" is a similar literal metaphor used at Job 41:18. If you read that "before you stands an open door" the metaphor is powerful. You don't need to be patronised by a translator announcing that "there are plenty of opportunities ahead" Too much paraphrase is very tiring: it is a good seasoner but I think that used too much it leads to very flabby prose.
Yesterday at 08:54 · Like · 1

Glenys Dent Eleanor, I hear you, I experienced the same. I agree 100%


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