Friday 5 February 2010

So if Christ has done it all - what, to quote Watchman Nee , shall this man do?

We're having a crucial discussion on Facebook along the lines of this post's title.
Ern Baxter discussed similar things, but more in terms of the common belief that as Jesus is coming back, we surely, just tell who we can about Jesus, and apart from that sort of kick around watching things get worse and worse waiting for our bus trip home.
I always remember his phrase in Thy Kingdom Come Kansas City 1975...
This has paralyzed the church for centuries!!!!

As you read this discussion....what do you think? If you read Peter Stott's message on Psalm 24 you can see he has very clear ideas about what we are doing on earth.


Wessel Wessels (Rom 8:29) God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him.(Heb 1:3a)This Son pe...rfectly mirrors God, and is stamped with God's nature. He holds everything together by what he says-See more
Tues at 07:08 · Comment ·UnlikeLikeYou, Andrea Lynn, John Madden, Mankwe Clement Phukubje and 12 others like this.
Chris Welch What I see now is life is a series of doors in exactly the same way as it was for Jesus. If we walk in Him, we take these doors that lead onto the sort of life He lived. Without Him in our life we routinely miss these doors, and then get very disappointed with life, because we this all there is? It isn't all there is....we just missed all the clues by living in our delusive sense of selfhood, and not recognizing Him in us.
Andre Oosthuizen Good thinking Chris.
Tues at 09:19Wessel Wessels They call it revelation knowledge, it is in this way that God reveals Himself to us in many ways, Amen my Brothers!!!
Tues at 09:22Mike Daniel Chris - I DO like your illustration, while at the same time rejoicing that in God's perfect love and sovereign foreknowledge, He uses both the doors I take AND the ones I miss to bring me into greater intimacy & dependence with Himself. The difference is just that the door I take is in deliberate cooperation and participation with His plan & ...
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indwelling life, whereas the one I miss is His plan at work FOR me, but sadly WITHOUT my participating (yet) with Him.

So, where Jesus' participation (& therefore experience of joy, rest, peace, sufficiency, security, signifance, acceptance, etc.) was total, my participation (& therefore EXPERIENCE of each of these) is limited by walking in the flesh instead of abiding in Christ.
Tues at 17:24 via Email reply

Chris Welch yup Mike...that's a good summation of our record on the subject:The Bible. Kadesh Barnea was very serious for the lost generation though....although in the long plan of only held things up. Whenever we live as Christ as me's not simply a right choice , it seems to unlock things in another dimension entirely. And when we ... See moreutterly utterly fail like David in the Bathsheba episode...if we're ruthlessly honest about the whole thing, allowing those figleaves to be pulled right away....then, again God seems to snatch us up again into this"other dimension". In David's case he unlocked levels of worship that we're still trying to catch up with thousands of years later in the whole church. So in His grace it is a win win situation, though devastating to our pride.
Mike Daniel That's interesting, Chris. I disagree on a certain issue, though. David certainly did nit unlock levels of worship that we are in any way constrained from at any time. Nor are we pursuing a different dimension or reality in our walk or relationship with. I read Eph. 1 as saying we already have every blessing in Christ. I read Peter's words about His divine power having already given us everything necessary for life and godliness. My response then is not to achieve a new level of anything, but walk in the fullness of what is ALWAYS available to me in Christ.

ridiculously graced...
-mike. See more

(Sorry for typos - Sent from my iPhone

Wessel Wessels Amen Mike we live in the reality of an accomplished work, we entered God's rest and we also now rest from all our own efforts and attempts to try and please an already pleased God. God is not resting because He is tired no but He is resting in the perfection of an already accomplished work in Christ, therefore this mystery which was hidden for ages... See more and generations but now revealed namely Christ Jesus in us, is the only hope of realizing the Glory or "DOXA" of God's original foreknowledge which was a mystery to man due to the fall and the ignorance that followed it, but now we have the mind of Christ so that we may know what the riches are of what God already bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus, now we only need to come to the knowledge of a fullness of what already is ours, so God is calling man all over to repent from their own way of thinking and exchange their ignorance for the truth which is God's way of thinking, and you will realize then that this is something which we as man had nothing to do with, it was all God's idea from the beginning and therefore there is nothing that we can add to perfection, it is an acceptance of a death that we as man died with Christ 2000yrs ago and were co raised into a new life with Christ therefore our very lives are now hidden in Christ in God, we are in agreement with God, that the testimony which He testified about His Son is the truth and that He gave us eternal life and this eternal life is in His Son, which is now the very essence of our lives...There is only one door and that door is Jesus Christ Himself and no one goes to the Father but through the one door which is Jesus, for He said I am the vine and you are the branches, he that abides in me will bare much fruit for without Him we can do nothing, the Adamic man expired, man died to an old inferior might be perhaps right kind of life, we are the new generation that God had in mind and came and planted Himself therefore we are His offsprings, God's peculiar people, kings, priests and ministers of the reconciliation and revealers of the mysteries of God, we are the new creation man that's got only one mission and one only and that is to do the will of the Father through Christ who is our life. He is the fountain of Life and in His light we see the Light.
Tues at 20:35

Chris Welch For 1800 years the gospel lived side by side with slavery in the Earth unchecked. From the time of the Cross the truth was out there! We are all One in the New Adam. There is no place for Mike Daniel to be my slave! But it wasn't until this truth was unlocked by the intercessory action of John Newton and William Wilberforce, that the whole thing ... See morestarted to fall like a pack of dominoes, first here, then the States. That is the spirit in which I am speaking. You are speaking eternal truths, I am speaking of historical invasions of God's realms into ours. You are speaking of the train leaving at the main station, I am speaking of the trains arriving on Platform 4. And unless you continually walk with the glory shining out of your body, I would suggest a moment like the Transfiguration was a time when an earthly carpenter was manifesting a different dimension.
"David certainly did nit unlock levels of worship that we are in any way constrained from at any time" He certainly did and no we're not constrained by them....because they were so huge...we seem to have a hard time catching up...even in our charismatic times. It is plain in Acts about David being a type for us. But it is ofcourse understood when Paul later speaks of Abraham and David as types, they are but shadows of the greater who is Christ.
Guys, I am seriously disturbed that I even have to write this.It's like the evident grace revelation you have needs a bit more digestion.
Mike Daniel Oh, my friend. What a great heart you have! But David and John Newton had no more to do with those revelations of our flesh and God's glory than Peter caused the transfiguration! No, just like on that mountainside, God reveals His grace - in direct conflict with our flesh - according to His good pleasure, not our unlocking, uncovering, undoing, ... See moreor revamping in any way. And as for the trains - His finished work has brought them all back home - their is no where left for them to go. All that remains is for us to allow Him to show us (not gain for ourselves) all the ramifications of being safe in the terminal of His finished work! Sadly, our charismatic days speak more to our desiring edification than glory by grace, but that is another debate for another day. His glory has not not been diminished by our flesh nor is it revealed by our efforts, but all is working solely by His perfect timing and sovereign will (Eph. 1) that by His unfolding grace to us, He would be glorified through us. The New Covenant Economy is one of walking in what we already have and what He's already done - all His requirements met; all His rewards delivered - in the Person of Christ.

You are loved!

Wed at 15:05

Chris Welch Not as "separate beings" was your Saviour and mine living directly through them to turn these historic keys..."making up what is lacking in His afflictions". This is how church works.
Wed at 16:00 ·

Mike Daniel Yes - we must be available for His revelation and to participate in what He's doing, but the more we live out of and teach a paradigm of what we must do to experience what God has, the more we lead in performance and merit. As long as we are trying to turn the keys, we will continue to experience being on the wrong side of the door. In Christ, all things have ALREADY been opened - we must walk then in faith by grace alone.
Wed at 16:05Mike Daniel ...and Church "works" by an infinite God revealing Himself through the plurality of finite beings who walk in availability by the sufficient grace of His finished work.
Wed at 16:06Chris Welch "As long as we are trying to turn the keys, we will continue to experience being on the wrong side of the door. In Christ, all things have ALREADY been opened - we must walk then in faith by grace alone."
It is important to see when Jesus said to Peter, after His bold confession, "I give you the Keys of the Kingdom." that when Peter turned the ... See morekeys to let 3000 into the Kingdom for the first time, it was not an add-on to his salvation.He was not the wrong side of the door.He was not "trying" anything, he had been given this specific task to do. It was complete grace, and he knew it....because if anyone shouldn't be turning those keys it was Peter.
Was he adding to Christ's work? Nope. Was he declaring Christ's completed work. Yup. Was Wilberforce taking away from Christ's declaration of total freedom by being used to stop slavery? Nope. If Peter hadn't turned those keys would 3,000 have been saved? Probably some would....but maybe the majority wouldn't. Does this make Christ's total complete work invalid just because He required Peter to use the keys?
Who is the One who has unlocked all obstacles for all time?Jesus. Who is it who has to obey Christ to see the finished work manifest? We do. Who is we? We, as struggling Christians trying to add to Christ's work? Nope. Christ's work is already complete in heaven? Who has to enforce this victory on earth according to Revelation 12? We the Blood of the Lamb,by the word of our testimony and by laying down our lives even unto death. Does this buy us salvation. Nope. Who is we? Independent selves, born again yet struggling to do the works of heaven?Nope. People who are dead. Yes. People who now live by the faith of the Son of God, by the Christ who lives within them. Who is doing the work? Difficult to tell. When you eat a Hershey bar, can you separate out the Hershey bar from your innards? Nope. You and the Hershey bar are one.

Wed at 20:15 ·

Chris Welch Christ suddenly angered a whole host of grace message people who'd loved it all until then. He said "Unless you eat Me and drink My blood you will have no life in you?" He was talking fusion. Loads left that day. After fusion, like the Hershey bar it's difficult to tell anymore between the believer on earth and the Christ He has just noshed. There ... See moreis no dividing line. What disturbs me about you feeling you have had to write and "put me right" that you obviously see a dividng line. Focussing on Christ in the heavens is great for starters. But not for opening doors here on earth. For that you need to know within yourself that you are dead. That you are fused. If you are still seeing dividing lines, you will not be turning any keys, but it will be given to the next generation who Jesus has just had for His lunch!
Wed at 20:23 ·

Mike Daniel Chris, clearly I've offended you, and I am really sorry, Brother. I love your passion for God and His word, and realize that you stand wholly and irrevocably uncondemnable before Him, so we are definitely on the same side of faith. I do not want to divide.

I do disagree with some critical points in what you've shared, but have no need or desire to "put you right" but only to edify and encourage in the Truth as I have been sharpened so many times. If you (or anyone reading all this!) would like to see a fuller response I'd be happy to send a direct message to you with some of those points (having written it out, I've thought better of posting it here!) :)

You are right about one thing (more than one, actually) - I will NOT be turning any keys ...but resting on His finished work, fixing my eyes upon the Finisher of my faith, and focusing my heart and mind where I am seated in Him with God.... See more

Thanks for sharing your heart authentically with me, Brother!

ridicuslously graced...
Wed at 22:25

Mike Daniel Bunch of folks have asked that I post those "last thoughts", including Chris, so, reluctantly...
Chris - I'm very sorry that I've come across as having to "put you right" by anything I've written. I praise God that you, having put your faith in Christ, are completely and irrevocably uncondemnable (Rom. 8:1), and I don't mean to speak any critical word of judgment or condemnation. My hope is only to sharpen a brother even as I am so often sharpened - as we are mutually edified by the Truth.

I don't want to play tug-a-war over any issue with a brother, but want to agree with you on a couple of points and ask a couple of questions. First - love that you are saying you're not adding to Christ's work. Also - love that you're using Scripture for doctrinal defense. I especially love your citing of Christ's blood and flesh. I do disagree with a few issues as you've described them, but I may misunderstand your points, and certainly don't want to get into a semantic debate if that's all it is.... See more

Christ's flesh and blood seems to me to speak clearly of His provision - having already provided all things for life and for godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). However, I definitely agree we have an inseparable union with Christ. We must receive His provision to have life, but that is a receiving act, not an achieving act. We don't do anything to receive it, but acknowledge it by faith - it's a choice, not a behavior. Jesus himself said the only work of God we must do is "believe upon the One whom He's sent."

I don't see the correlation between the keys Christ promised Peter and what happened at Pentecost. Clearly, Jesus DID intend to illustrate something in "giving keys" but I believe this to be the principle of Christ's identity and Peter's co-identification based on His understanding of who Jesus is. This principle - upon which Christ will build His Church (again, jesus doing the building) - is I believe the crux of all our entry into heaven, namely, knowing Jesus as God's Son and being identified by our relationship with Him as a recipient of grace. I don't see any evidence (but I'm open) to the keys having anything to do with Peter's behavior then or later, and this seems to contradict some of Peter's own statements in his letters.

One statement concerns me greatly: "Focussing on Christ in the heavens is great for starters. But not for opening doors here on earth." This seems dangerous to me - I would only ask that you prayerfully consider the implications of this statement. Hebrews says, "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author AND Finisher of our faith..." He initiated and will finish all things He has designed for us. Colossians 3 directs our focus again, "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God" Praise God I died! Again - have to agree with you there! Now my life is in Christ alone. All of His glory through His Church will be by His grace to us for His glory through us.

Do we need greater revelation? YES! understand all we ALREADY have in Christ's finished work. Paul wanted to know Christ more (Phil 3), and for us to know His love more (Rom. 8), and for His Church to have revelation of what is ours from Him (Eph 1). But it is all revelation of His finished work, not our unlocking new works or blessings He has withheld to date.

I debated with myself about sharing so much - concerned that it undermines my desire not to quarrel with you. I find a greater burden though in my heart - that to share love is often to share truth, especially with someone with such passion and desire for God. Please forgive me if I've overstepped your desire for clarifying conversation.
Yesterday at 22:31
Chris Welch today
Brilliant reply.And so loving.We will just have to draw a line on Peter I guess. His was a unique gift from Christ never ever to be repeated. He got to announce that the Kingdom was now open for the first time to men. Nobody can ever be "the first" again. I would urge everyone including me to prayerfully consider the steps in Peter's life. Things like how God honours boldness and revelation and confession. God sorts out our inner stuff later. And boy, was it sorted! So here was a man brought to the right place and the right time in Acts 2 in much fear and trepidation, yet at the same time a kind of pure boldness in the Spirit. This whole cycle of events is worth taking deep into our beings.
You are right to point out that we should ALWAYS be fixing our eyes on the things above. I am writing a kind of shorthand there which can be misconstrued as....done that let's move on to works now.
No, it seems to work like this. In Ephesians we see a progression. As believers in God's school as opposed to the religious systems of men we spend at least 2 chapters or a third of our Christian experience doing NOTHING but focussing on Christ and our new position in Him. This is comparable with Romans Ch3-6. It seems we do nothing else and as believers we get a lot of flack for it. "You're NOT doing anything!!!" people cry. But because Christianity is an inward seeing, layer upon layer, like French polish...and NOT a left-brain seminary course....God has us in this bit for as long as He feels is necessary...THEN while living in Ephesians 1-2, and Romans 3-6, on our insides, the next phase is to get our believing working in 3D laboratories called family, work and friends...believers and unbelievers...This is Ephesians 3,4 and 5.
But nowhere have we moved outside of our continuous inward seeing of Ephesians 1 and 2 and Romans 3 to 6.
On Facebook we have to use shorthand...but the casualty is clarity. So naturally you thought I was moving on from ever looking at Jesus.
What happens after this is we begin to see Jesus clearer and clearer in absolutely everything that is going on. We begin to see what Jesus meant by "seeing what the Father was doing"...only for us it is seeing what Jesus is doing.

In terms of meetings, this is the key for moving in miracles. Jesus used to say..."Aaaah...I see the Presence of God is here for healing...who wants to be healed?" The phrase that is in the Bible is when Jesus saw that God was present to heal.
These Ephesians and Romans processes are outlined in the articles Merrill Thompson and Nancy Gilmore are sending out. The whole book of Norman Grubb’s entitled “Yes I am” is linked to also on my blog for download. If that’s too long, track down Romans 6-8 by Norman Grubb. It’s the same subject but more potted. More about keys and how the earth is given to the sons of men to either bind up or unlock is here in Peter Stott's series on psalm24.

Having driven Ben to school I feel to commend you on stressing the finished work of Christ. The reason Rob Rufus is having to spend about 5 years teaching nothing but grace in an alien law-filled environment of Hong Kong is entirely correct in the Spirit.

Churches all over America are run by seminary trained individuals that have gone through a left-brain training mill of knowledge and they wonder why after spending 2 weeks a year teaching a left-brain version of grace, and 50 weeks on its outworking....why their Christians never grow.
We only grow by revelation. They themselves were never told it was an inward religion. The left-brain does not handle grace as a subject too easily, any more than it understands Christ in us the hope of glory and questions of love and being loved. The left-brain was just not equipped to do that.
Christianity in this way is condemned to failure in the west. The whole way it is run is doomed from the start. Praise God for people like you being raised up.

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