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Sunday, 13 February 2011

In which Jack Fortenberry and Chris Welch talk more on the subject of Christian leadership

Jack Fortenberry is the author of "Corinthian Elders"
Facebook conversation.
Chris Welch
12 February at 20:24 You,having written all this radical stuff, can I pick your brain?
In the natural world animals are always and continually establishing their pecking order. By holding out for "a pyramidless" structure is this somehow a negation of God's natural leadership order. I mean in the sense that skills of leadership manifest through some and not others.Or in the Body is it rather that many manifest leadership in different ways, for example in counselling, in administration, in teaching, in music, in helps.....and we just welcome each in their roles at appropriate times. Quakers and Brethren denominations have explored these things. How does it work among you guys? I mean, if certain of you are just really experienced in leading in secular situations, is there some sort of follow through in your church gatherings? .
Jack Fortenberry 12 February at 21:25 Report
Hi Chris,

I think consensus governance & participatory assemblies do have a negative effect on the "natural leadership order" but I don’t see it as God’s natural order. In other words just because we see a pecking order in much of nature (chickens, wolf packs, queen bees, people) remember we also see much of nature working in a euphony without subjection to a pecking order (schools of feeding or evading fish, whale pods, flocks of birds, grazing herds). Not to say there are not fights over mating rights or food but still living creatures together accomplishing feats without a leader or leader class. Likewise It appears that our return to God’s order will be leaderless (except for our Head & King) lions coexisting with lambs and toddlers coexisting with vipers without a need for subjection (other than mutual subjection). The only natural 'order' subjection from God that I see in the NT is subjection to Christ but to a lesser degree, governments, parents, apostolic teaching, employers (masters), elders (older in the faith). Then, of course, we are all to be in subjection to each other.

In our group there are those that seem to have more motivaltional, administrative or organizational skills in truth and in their reputation but those gifts seem to be enjoyed by the body without encroaching on the contributions and sincere desire for the contributions and ideas of others (less “leaderly” brothers and sisters in the body). In other words because those successful businessmen or academically talented individuals respect every ones’ gifts (as you mentioned like service, mercy, music, wisdom), then it actually makes them even better (I believe) in execution of their day to day duties.

Who would have thought that simply ‘listening’ would help so much! If it is not the listening perhaps it is their humility when not considering themselves better which somehow appears to add wisdom to those with ‘leadership’ skills. Perhaps there is a better word to describe those. Perhaps when identifying those individual talents we use ‘leader’ from our sinful nature while wanting a leader or wanting to be a leader but really we should be more precise in our adjective. For example certainly it would make sense to submit to someone more experienced for a task but also an experienced one should encourage others to receive more experience so there you go.

Hope you are well! I have continued to enjoy your thoughts on your blog and on Facebook. Blessings brother! .
Chris Welch 13 February at 20:44 thanks for that Jack. It's fascinating. Christian men are fascinating too.People in the world cannot be messed around. Step too far, the solution is simple...you get yelled at....or a fist in your face. Christian men , until God's really got a hold of them, do this "fake" humility thing. In the Spirit you can pick up their intense annoyance that they are being treated thus, but on the surface they are all genteel. So, in truth, or under God's Holy Spirit Xray , whether you curl your lip, or do this fake humility...the root is just the same. An Anger problem.
Now this affects music too. I know there is a beautiful music which is in the Spirit of God, but one of the effects of men not being properly sorted knowing who they are, manifests in music. Raw passion is numbed down so as well as getting numbed down anger, we also get numbed down praise and numbed down warfare, and wet male worship of Jesus . Some of that might work for ladies, but even there I am not sure.
In matters of leadership,

( Have no idea who these guys are....probably all 50 and older and wiser)

males who do not know they are Christ in their form yet, rather too willingly abdicate leadership to that nice strong pyramid leader who will protect them. And a leader who has 100,1000,10,000 of these is not going to quickly rock the boat and implant Christ in the others.
This is one of my major gripes with Morris Cerullo. HE HAS brought forth some incredible generals, who now in turn have churches that are huge....but I do think he has a lot to lose in terms of his megaprojects if he was to leave his patronism behind too quickly, and not head up his banquets for all punters to stump up his next 40 million quid or whatever it is now a year.
This is all talking negative. Let's talk positive. If the early apostles just by praying in Acts 4 could cause an earthquake, what would happen with a thousand , ten thousand,a hundred thousand fullreawakened men all commanding history at the same time in the Holy Spirit?

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