Friday 29 April 2011

The Meaning of Union VII - X by David Heisler

Facebook Note on Saturday, 09 April 2011 at 15:23
The Meaning of Union VII

The Child sees his “Christian” life as how it benefits him – “my sins are forgiven”, “I’m going to Heaven”.

The Young Man sees his “Christian” life, also, as how it benefits him – “I am strong” – “I know the bible” – “I can whip the devil”. Or worse – the Young Man can get into doing this or that to obtain “blessings” or “wealth” or “health” or whatever. The Young Man can be very self-centered.

The Father is different. He knows the difference between the improved life and the replaced life. His life is not about him or for him. The Father knows he lives his life for others. He is Christ in his world.

“I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning.”
I John 2.13

Let’s not forget one thing – you already have Union – His Spirit joined eternally and unchangeably to your spirit. What does that mean? It means you are already a Father.

The question arises – why should I know my union? The answer is simple – “Christ must be formed in you” – and He already is – but the “forming” is the “knowing” – intuitively, permanently, unquestionably.

Why is that so important? Why must I know this? In the Old Testament He tells us His name - “I am”. Jesus also said “I am”. But that sort of begs the question – “I am who – I am what?”.

Well He answers that question also – “God is love”. So, one thing we know is that love is not an emotion – although love can be felt. It is not a thing to be obtained. More properly Love is a Person - the Person. You will not get more love as if it were a thing to be obtained – but you will be an expression of the Person who is Love.

Why is this important? Because - Love exists for others. Love has no other purpose. If God made a choice – and that is hard to imagine because “choice” is really a temporal word – a word for time and space – but let’s say He sat down one day and made a choice. Well His choices are obvious. He could be alone – or - He could have created all that exists to serve Him – or - and the choice He obviously made, was that He could serve and, in fact, die for His creation. Well, if that’s not the best definition of love – I don’t know how to define love.

So – we are now the expression of Him who is Love. And, we are in fact Love ourselves.

More on that in Part VIII

The Meaning of Union VIII
by David Heisler on Monday, 11 April 2011 at 19:39

We know we are Fathers. We know that it is important to know this – but why?

Well, what is His purpose in all this? Are we created to be a race of immature Children and Young Men? Is there some eternal purpose in all being self-centered – “getting the blessings” like kids in a candy store? No. Of course not.

The truth is we are mature. We do know who we are. We are safe. We are His expression. He is the lover. We are lovers. He is the creator. We are creators. He gave His life. We shall give our lives. This is truly Christianity. This is who we are.

The process of going from the consciousness of Children to Young Men to Fathers is what Paul described as the “renewing of your mind”. “… be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind …” [Romans 12.2] “And be renewed in the spirit of your mind …” [Ephesians 4.23] Understanding that, as a Father, you exist for others is very different than your original thoughts about Christianity.

The Father’s mind is renewed. He does not see Christianity as a religion to improve his self. His self will never be improved, only replaced by Christ Himself. Fathers do not look to “get something” out of Christianity – rather – he sees himself as one who gives all because he loves and is love himself.

Look again at how John describes the Father: “I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning.” [I John 2.13] There is such clarity in that vantage point – knowing Him – the One from the beginning. All the nonsense of religious Christianity drops away at that point. That statement is beyond human grasp – except by intuition.

More in Part IX

The Meaning of Union IX

So how do you get it? How do you “know” your union? Well, for one it is real whether you know it or not. You are a Father whether you appear to be or not. Your feelings are irrelevant. Appearances are irrelevant. Feelings and appearances are irrelevant as to the eternal truth of who you are.

There is one thing you must know. He always gives confirmation of what is real – eventually. That old missionary always talked about expressing faith like committing yourself to sitting in a chair. Have you ever seen someone sit in a chair and the chair broke. It’s very funny if it’s not you. It does happen. Sometimes chairs break. However, He does not break.

But you must fall backwards into Him like you would fall backwards into a chair. The only difference is that He will never, ever fail you and, most important, is that at some point you will realize that it is not you that hold Him, but He that holds you. You will realize that you do not hold Christianity together by anything you do – praying, reading, singing, fellowshipping, tithing – or any of the other “so-called” Christian activities. All is dependent upon Him, period.

At some point it will simply occur to you that – what you have said a thousand or ten thousand times “He lives His life as me” – is true. It may hit you like a ton of eternal bricks. There will be confirmation.

But, as sure as the sun will rise in the east – the reality [truth] is that you were crucified with Christ – and – now the life you live is Him living as you.

The good thing is that it is not your job to give the confirmation – it is His. So, basically just forget about it – let Him be Himself.

And, so, in the words of Forrest Gump, “that’s all I have to say about that [for now]”.
Response to Union
by David Heisler on Wednesday, 13 April 2011 at 13:51
Here’s a response I got from a good friend:

“Hey David,

What's interesting to me is that everything in the Christian life works this way:

Objective leads to Subjective.

Our problem is that in natural religion, we want to see it, feel it, experience it first before we accept the truth as true.

All the truths of Christianity are only true objectively, completely apart from myself, or my
experience, or my feelings or will. They are true in heaven before we were even born in time
and space. But God's word tells us they are true nonetheless, and true of us, even before we
subjectively experience them. Because we were truly baptized into Christ Jesus death and
resurrection long before we were born, even before time began, because He is the Lamb slain
from the foundation of the world. And all men were placed into Christ Jesus.

Your testimony below reminded me of this because this is what I've been dealing with. "You're
already dead, how can you die to self when I already killed your old self 2,000 yrs. ago?"

And as we accept the Objective truth, it becomes subjective. Natural religion, even Christian
natural religion, always puts the experience first, whether that be fruit, obedience, works, the
will, the mind or the emotions or our behavior. All of these things come after faith, not before.
We have to die to our own religion, our own self, as we take His objective truth, completely
outside of what we know to be ourselves, as true on our behalf. Then as we go forward with
that truth simply by faith and meditating on His truth, the subjective experience comes along
after to prove that it was already true. It doesn't become true when we "get it" or feel it or
experience it, it's true beforehand.

"Faith is the substance," the substance isn't the substance, faith is. "Faith is the victory," the
victory is not the victory, faith is. This relaxes us because we don't have to "get it" to get it.
We've already got it all, in Him. But as we receive that, then we will experience it, but it's only
a byproduct, it's not the substance

The Anna Approach (union message X? adjunct)
by David Heisler on Thursday, 14 April 2011 at 16:36

More and more, for my own understanding of things, I take the “Anna” approach -- I refer to “Anna” as in “Mister God this is Anna”. See how Ann broke things down to their simplest parts and ideas.

P.19 of “Mister God this is Anna”

The local parson talked with Anna, then age 5 or 6:

The Parson said to Anna, “Do you believe in God?”
“Do you know what God is?”
“He’s God!”
“Do you go to church?”
“Why not?”
“Because I know it all!”
“What do you know?”
“I know to love Mister God and to love people and cats and dogs and spiders and flowers and trees … with all of me.”

Do we need more theology or doctrine?

The Meaning of Union IV - VI by David Heisler

Facebook Note on Wednesday, 06 April 2011 at 17:04
The Meaning of Union IV
Christian growth is all about understanding who you are – not becoming who you are. At the moment of salvation His Spirit formed a union with your spirit. Despite that truth, through the eyes of a Child or a Young Man - He can still seem distant and a distinct being from you.

We now enter the Young Man [or Woman – it is really gender neutral] stage. Remember how John describes the Young Man:

“… I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one…. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one". I John 2.12-14

Young Man emphasis is strength, knowledge of the written word and power to overcome evil. Young Man is a necessary stage, but it is just that – a “stage” not a place to remain.

You must thoroughly understand the error of seeing yourself as a participant in a self-improvement program – called Christianity – where you equate growth with gaining knowledge and becoming powerful. For a time you must think it is all “about you” – you are strong – you know the bible – you know how to fight satan – you – you – you.

But this stage must end – at the end of your rope. You’ve done that once - you stopped rationalizing, theorizing and avoiding the truth – you did exercise that mustard seed of faith and commenced your relationship with the King of the Universe.

Now, as a Young Man you will come to the end of your rope again. The Young Man will attempt to perfect his Christianity – not knowing it is already perfect. The Young Man will work very hard at Christianity and may spend many years doing just that.

NB Picture:This book is a spoof, does not exist, and if it existed it would be heresy. The picture is MC Escher's famous impossible staircase as LEGO. Artwork Chris WelchSo, what is the “plan”? The Young Man approaches Christianity as a religion – a self-improvement religion. He busies himself memorizing scripture [which is a good thing really], fighting the devil and being proud of how strong he thinks he is. The Young Man will pray “God fill this place with your Spirit” – or – “God give me the strength, or wisdom or faith or whatever – God give me something so I can do [whatever]”.

The Young Man still sees God as external – separate from himself. He thinks he must wake God up to the problems of the world. God is somewhere else [perhaps sleeping] and must be entreated to “do such and such a thing”. “Strength” is seen as a thing to be acquired – that God will give you if you ask Him properly.

The Young Man will, eventually fall flat on his face and say “it’s not working”. He will be frustrated with his inability to move forward, as he thinks he should, into Christian maturity. It is at that point that he is ripe for the next step – Fatherhood.

More on that in Part V

The Meaning of Union V
by David Heisler on Thursday, 07 April 2011 at 17:15

When I was young all I wanted to do was play football. So I did all the things I thought I needed to do to be a better football player. I saw it as a progression from “not a good football player” to someday, maybe, if I worked hard enough, to a “great football player”. I approached Christianity the same way.

I wanted to go from being a beginner to being a great Christian. So I did everything I thought I should do – and – there were many, well-intentioned, willing to pile on all the requirements.

I got a bible.

I got another bible.

I got a better bible.

I got a concordance.
I joined a church.

I joined another church.

I joined a better church.
I started reading the bible.

I listened to sermons.

I took notes.

I went to bible studies.

I taught bible studies.

I memorized scripture.

I witnessed – I actually won people to Christ.

The great misconception of Christianity is that it is “about me”. The great truth of Christianity is that “me is done” – in fact – “me is dead” – but rather – “me is alive”- actually – “but it is Christ that lives in me”.

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me…” Gal. 2.20

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col. 3.3

So the truth is - what part of “dead” is available for self-improvement? How is it possible to go from a “not so good Christian” to a “great Christian”? What part of “dead” is going to become a better, more devoted Christian? What part of “dead” can live an ethics – morals – values based life. No part whatsoever.

The understanding – revelation – epiphany of Fatherhood – and of true Christianity for that matter - begins when a person understands that their life is over and that it is Christ that lives His life as you. Now, I will discuss this further, later, but this does not mean you live a “dead” life. By no means! Your life will be full and vibrant with true Life.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life…” John 14.6 “Life” is not a thing to be possessed – Life is a Person – a Person that lives His life as me – quite humbling to grasp that He actually chooses to live His life as me.

When you fail at Christianity – or rather – when Christianity fails you - you commence the process of “Christ … [being] formed in you”. Gal. 4.19

More on that in Part VI

The Meaning of Union VIby David Heisler on Friday, 08 April 2011 at 13:35
The Meaning of Union VI

Having started Christianity at a relatively advanced age [18] the whole deal came flying at me very quickly. At age 19, about 13 months after my salvation, I heard my first message of “union” - Fatherhood. I had the privilege [coincidence? – mistake?] of accepting an invitation from a friend to hear an old missionary speak at All Saints Episcopal Church in Fort Worth.

At that point – in my short Christian existence – I really had heard every different take on “real” Christianity. I really don’t recall exactly what that old missionary said that day, but I knew he was on to something [understatement].
The speaker encouraged me to see myself differently. For the next seven and one-half years I said, to myself, over and over, that I, David Heisler, am the David Heisler form [expression] of Jesus Christ. I believed that to be true. But, for those seven and one-half years I really didn’t “get it”. It was initially only a concept to me – a concept I whole-heartedly accepted and wanted to know – but only, none-the-less, a concept.

In my mid-twenties I played minor league football in Racine, Wisconsin. One day, during the summer of my 26th year, I was running wind sprints along the side of Lake Michigan. I was thinking a [very “non-union”] idea that I had heard many times – that “you must die out to self”. That statement is a staple in many Christian circles. Plainly stated – “dying out to self” is a lie. It cannot happen. Even if it could, it does not need to happen. Why? Because of the very next thought I had as I was sprinting.

“I am dead”

I stopped “on a dime”. The thought “I am dead” hit me like a ton of bricks. I made that statement a thousand times since I first heard the message of Union [Fatherhood]. But this time was different.

I really don’t recall

exactly what that

old missionary said that day,

but I knew he was on to

something [understatement].

It stuck. I got it. The very truth that He now lived His life as me was no longer theory or a concept to me. It was no longer a statement I made. It was true. He was true. He lives His life in His David Heisler form. The chair I sat in proved it could hold me. He proved He could hold me.

Is this the end of the story? Of course not.

There will be more in Part VII

The Meaning of Union Parts I - III by David Heisler

Facebook Note on Sunday, 03 April 2011 at 16:48
The Meaning of Union I

In Christian circles “union” is used, but what does it mean?

“Union” expresses a “right now” reality for all who believe in Jesus. We all have “union” or are “in union” with God. But we may not know it - yet.

The idea of not “knowing” your union and then moving toward that inner knowing is what I am talking about. The discussion must start with how you perceive yourself at this moment. That might be the key to how you perceive yourself tomorrow. There are three very distinct perceptions. The best scriptural reference I know, and, refer to often, is found in I John 2.12-13
Early Fisherfolk LP (Church of the Redeemer Coffee House- The way IN)

“I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.“

John refers to three categories: Children, Young Men and Fathers. To be clear there are not three categories of believers. In fact, the reality is that we are all Fathers – we just don’t all know it. But when we do, we know our “union”. You always are in union with God, but you might not know it at the moment. But, there are eternal reasons and meaning for each category.

The category you find yourself in is merely your perception of yourself. Of course we all have all sorts of perceptions and thoughts, but these are the basic three – at least as far as John saw it.

Now, what does “category” or “perception” mean? “Children” see themselves in a childlike relationship with God. Generally speaking that person is relatively new to the faith. That person might have had a dramatic conversion experience. God, who was afar off, is now near and He is kind and loving and basically, “Daddy”. It’s a sweet time especially for those who really need a Daddy. The Child is basically a “taker” and not a “giver”.

In the [little] Children stage “forgiveness of sin” is big – for many really big. I say that because there are many that come to faith in Jesus with a checkered past. Their life gets a complete makeover upon faith in Jesus. So, knowing the burden and the penalty of sin is lifted and that you have eternal life, because of the vicarious death of the Savior is wonderful and life-changing.

The reality is that you’re not going to stay a Child forever. Some try, but inevitably all will move on.

And, we will talk about that in Part II.

The Meaning of Union II
by David Heisler on Monday, 04 April 2011 at 14:12

So, we have laid out three basic categories – Children, Young Men and Father. Let’s talk more about Children.

Most, when new to Christianity, approach it as you would approach anything new – get with the program - find out what you can - associate with others. Advice is freely given by those more “experienced”.

Up until salvation God is seen afar off. He appears to be a separate entity from me. We exist in the same universe, but He is “up” in heaven and I am here on earth. But, after salvation - I now know Him and before I did not. But basically He still appears to be “outside” or “separate” from me.

Christianity is now seen as a thing to be learned - program to do – the Bible to memorize – quiet times to have – church to join and go to – bible studies to attend. It can all get very complicated very quickly. It did for me.

I became a believer in Jesus at 18 years of age.

Sacred Heart University
Before my 20th birthday I went from being Jewish to getting baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic at Sacred Heart University in Bridgeport, Connecticut; baptized Southern Baptist at James Avenue Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas; learning about commune living at the Episcopal Church of the Redeemer in Houston, Texas; attended Bill Gothard’s Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts and finally, “got the Holy Ghost” complete with my own prayer language.

Not bad for a Jewish kid from New York.

I was mess.

What happened? What happened to the simplicity of “Daddy” – my sins are forgiven – and I’m going to heaven?

Well – what happened was my Child stage of Christianity was over and I commenced life as a Young Man.

More on that in Part III

The Meaning of Union III
by David Heisler on Tuesday, 05 April 2011 at 19:44

While my life history may be different than yours, we all have the same exact feelings, emotions and psychology regarding our progression from Children to Young Men and on to Fatherhood

Before jumping into the “Young Man” discussion, it is crucial to understand what Christian “growth” means and to review some basics.

Consider a human embryo. Upon conception that human has the genetic potential for all he or she will ever be. The human will grow from microscopic size to full grown size – but the fertilized egg is a complete human [genetically speaking]. That embryo will never become more of a human being or a better human being.

In the very same sense the “child” Christian – while new in the faith – is a complete Christian. The Child will never become more of a Christian or a better Christian. The Child will never be closer to God or have more of Him. The Christian is 100% complete at salvation.

You would never say that, because a human being is young or small that somehow they are not a complete person. Physical growth does not affect the reality of who a human is.

The confusing point is that as Christians we equate Christian growth with getting closer to God by learning more about Him or living a more ethical or moral existence – doing what “Jesus would do” – becoming more “Christ-like”. This is primarily because in the “Child” and “Young Man” stages God is still perceived as external or a separate Being – which is a misconception – as He is not external or separate.

Reality does not get any more basic than the fact that God chose to deem the entire creation lost - not some more than others – just all lost. All need forgiveness – all need a Savior. What He did at that point did not depend upon a human – with the exception of One – Jesus Christ. The crucifixion is the one and final sacrifice needed to bring the entire creation to redemption.

So, when a person avails themselves of their free gift of redemption, a very common prayer that many use, upon their first exercise of faith is “come into my heart Lord Jesus”. Well, that’s actually and precisely what happens. His spirit is now joined to your spirit. That union [right – that’s what we’re talking about] is created. It does not get “better” or “more”. It simply is. What we’re talking about is “do I know it?” And the reality is that a Child or Young Man really can’t know that – not at the moment.

Church of the Redeemer Houston Texas

So, basically, in a flash you go from lost to found – sinner to saint. There are no better or worse sinners. By the same token there are no better or worse saints. You either are or you are not. So, if there actually is such a thing as “Christian growth”, it is only in the human understanding not in the reality.

More in Part IV

Monday 25 April 2011

David Heisler - Being not Becoming

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A short excerpt from 2008, covering the main error that our culture has swallowed, and by extension almost without exception , the whole of the World's church. Allow this to download a bit, and come back and watch, or try here on this page David Heisler Video Excerpt

Worship in Spirit and Truth Parts 3 and 4 by Chris Welch

pictures are all of Mevagissey,Cornwall, two miles further round the coast from Pentewan sands, where the parts 1-4 were written.

Facebook on Saturday, 23 April 2011 at 23:48.

Issue 8 Christ in all that is in His Body.
Daniel Yordy writes :Christ is four things, five if you count the ways men have bastardised some of these after their own "likeness" reducing them to a Tree of Knowledge/ human tradition version yet devoid of the Tree of Life. Bizarre yet true, a bit like saying a Christless Christ...yet nevertheless even this is some sort of "schoolteacher to lead us to Christ. Daniel continues :" Christ is Four great tables of food,each table itself filled with many different mixtures and combinations.

  • 1 Christ is every Word God speaks

  • 2 Christ is a Spirit of Power
  • 3 Christ is a corporate Body.

  • 4 Christ is the One who lives as Me."

Now Daniel and I focus on 1 and 4, but Christ is equally 2 and 3.

30-40 years ago the prophecies commissioning our generation were things from Isaiah like :

Seek the Face of the God of Jacob.
They were :Raise up a highway of holiness in the desert.
Behold I do a New thing can you not perceive it?
Raise up the former devastations!
Enlarge the cords of your tent.Spread out.
And also: sing barren woman sing,for she who hasn't born shall bring forth a multitude!!!

Now look at each of Daniel's 4 points and realise that each strand of the Body has been working on one or more of these points in the context of the prophecies. It's been a time of concentration, of relative quiet....give or take Argentina and China's continuous miracle. The Holy place is a place like this. We are not fully mature yet, so we can only handle but one piece of shewbread per tribe...or else it confuses us.Remember the prophecy I did the cartoon about: the 1978 airplane lift off vision.(Here...last part)For an unending time the pilot was checking the systems...nothing seemed to happen.Then the engines were revved....but still the checks were going on. A lot of us wondered if Toronto was it.....or if Lakeland 2008 was it...But the truth is the Body across the Earth is now latent with the individual streams of Spirit learning that have been taking place in the "relative quiet" of the Holy Place. Well It's now time for the 3rd level of development. The Holiest Place. This is where everyone realises they went up in smoke at the altar of Incense 2000 years ago....and God does graphic representations of this in our own lives and in local Body Life.....Truth is though, when the Veil was torn in TWO at the intersection of the Holy Place and the Holiest Place....after this things get very interesting....because we are nolonger 12 tribes...we are now Called by our New Name which comes from the Mouth of the Father.....We are now walking Christ as Us.....He is our Name. As the word is going out afresh from 1 Corinthians 12 about the eye not saying to the foot, or whatever part, I have no need of you....we are nolonger talking about just squashing gifts in meetings....we are talking ALL 4 strands of JESUS above coming together as ONE THING. Not just individual Bodies and streams even....but holy , right, segments of revelation being slid beside each other seamlessy as though we'd meant it so from the beginning. Ofcourse the reality is WE Christians have been at war for 2000 years.....but that never phased the Father...who saw all along that when we got hold of "Christ as us " individually......putting the whole lot together was going to be a doddle....Yes, from the beginning the Father has never been phased!!!! He planned it so, like one enormous Symphony in Time....with everything working at every level in the final denoument of the last movement. This is the Apocalypse....the unveiling of this Mature Man.Spirit and Truth is no small back street operation!!!!

Issue 9 - Worship in Spirit and Truth is not in a "human" order. It recognises no name or label other than Christ and the order in which He operates. He is the Eternal High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek.The Order of Melchizedek is not at the summons of man, but at the call of God, or to be more defined the God cry felt within the eternity of man's heart. The spirit of a man knows what is in man and discerns his true drives.Therein by the way is the Armenian/Calvinist mystery....who initiates what? Once you see union as on earth can you tell?All this to say that if you were born again in revival you have a taste for the Melchizedek strangeness of an "order" that is not centered in human organisation. How does anyone explain Evan Roberts and Wales, the later Hebridean Revival and Campbell and my own smaller school revival? But there is the even greater mystery: the Eternal Now we were finding our way around in,in 1972 is not different to the NOW of 2011. The same Spirit that moved me 39 years ago is the same Spirit today. I have added mysteries to my life.I may be more mature as a Christian, but the Melchizedek Order is just the same.The I AM Presence of God can be experienced all day long . It can be experienced in every meeting in grandiose splendour by a day old convert as well as by some older Christian. What that day old convert reports back is as valid and as relevant to the Body as from anyone else. Name me another group on Earth like that? This is the mystery of heaven. The last thing Moses experienced as well as it being the instruction he was to relay to the elders of Israel when he asked "who shall I say sends me?" "You shall say I AM sends you." You shall say BLANK CHEQUE sends you. What do you need? Well He is there to fulfil it. But this same God reserved the right to BE the I AM in the way He wanted. So yes He was Deliverer, but He was fully ARCHITECT of that deliverance. He wasn't about to be a Sattellite TV plaything version of deliverance for each individual Israelite in Egypt. He was engineering HISTORY for the whole nation of Israel.And on such a scale that the surrounding nations became really afraid.The interesting pattern in the Key of David meetings here in Havant is the Psalm 123 truth of a servant watching for every flick of the hand or sign in the eye of the master. Sensitivity to this I AM God, and what He is doing now. What is on His heart NOW. What the Body is up to now, not only in the UK, but wherever the Lord indicates. Key of David corporate gatherings are one example of Spirit and Truth in operation. My blog posts have described that a Bible verse in such a gathering, is not so much referred to, as enlarged by the Spirit in REAL time on large 3D screens of our corporate experience. We all feel that we are diving into the limitless well of that verse.When Jesus said the time will come when we will not worship on this hill nor at Jerusalem, but we will worship in Spirit and in Truth. It is a whole new system of operation.It is relationship.It is Union. Like Dr Who's Tardis, you think you are approaching a quaint limited little object like a Police Telephone Box, but when you enter , you discover a place where all that you thought you understood is overturned...even the notion of time and space itself....which in the NOW Presence of God and the powerful powerful order of Melchizedek becomes something that is ever broadening, ever growing in definition.Issue 10.Many charismatic types will see the title of this note and then be disappointed to realise hardly anything has been about private or corporate acts of worship. You see, this was how it was for Israel too. God said through Moses to Pharoah "Let my people go out into the wilderness 3 days to worship". Israel got equally irritated when they learned this worship meeting was going to go on some!!!! Watch out when the God who created time says anything like "Soon", or "3 days". Think...a day is as a thousand years. In the same way when Jesus announced a simple sounding prophetic statement like "from now on people will worship Me in Spirit and Truth"....think Romans 12...the giving over of your entire self, for always,as a LIVING SACRIFiCE. Think 1st Commandment...Love God with any main and spare bits you find in your being. Think not 3 days conference over in some Dales Bible Week Cowshed in Harrogate in 1976, think....something that is going to unravel your whole life,your university, your career, your very existence for the short time you live out your life on earth.In my blog I posted how in 1973 two of us were discussing the BIG WORLD vision verses in Isaiah and asking, "God,how do you get from little old Amersham to the size of these prophecies."Next thing we know,Merv and Merla are teaching praise in Guildford Fountain Trust Conference. But this is God's answer....this is God's language...this is God's conveyor belt to the bigger picture....this is the start of learning "worship in Spirit and Truth"....and ofcourse to begin with we are still "in separation". But without the release of the Spirit how would we even begin to "understand" separation, to even begin to "see" the delusion the devil sowed in Genesis 3. And God chuckles....although He sees our frustration....He sees that we as a BODY are destined to get it!!!!To "see it"BIG TIME.We HAD to pass through the False church, the false loves in our own lives,both religious and non.We had to pass through the "religious adulteress", the Babylon harlot, who as Proverbs describes, is busy telling us how religious and pure she is one minute, then the next she is wanting to bed us while her husband is away. Some of us may have experienced more literal versions, but manifold are the religious prisons and bondages we have had to negotiate in order to learn the taste of the True, that of the Melchizedek Order.Nevertheless all the headlong rush to see the WHOLE, the God going on in everything, the "lie" of separation.....actually there is a Rising tide of worship. People like me who God sovereignly used to touch others in an anointing of praise and worship in the 70s and some of the 80s, and who, pigsick of their own failures and also the Corporate Brand sound of late 80s Integrity music, and who much in relief lay down music "permanently" to learn the new way that Norman Grubb and others were teaching.....are delightedly relearning that there IS A NEW WORSHIP....of the more defined type that means the "shared and specific" put aside time of the Corporate Body just to love on Her Saviour. BUT THIS TIME not a strained "false match" worship coming out from a people still not weaned from "separation seeing", but a people who know Union. I said earlier how different strands of the Body were focussed on different things. I was in a Body in Emsworth focussed on "entering the Presence of the Lord in Spirit and Truth." We had been taught by Ed Miller and Jorge Pradas. After years of battling in the Spirit a "ground of praise" was taken by faith in the Spirit. Meetings had purpose. Outstanding things were happening in the meetings. People were being mightily transformed from the inside out. Victories in praise and prayer were bringing healing, to us, to associated ministries, to unresolved situations like the Yorkshire Ripper, to expanding into Paris and North Wales. Daniel Yordy's communities were quite different. They had stupefying revelation on the Third level. Their meetings led with praise which led into amazing Word content. Until the 90s though none of these Sam Fife groups "saw" praise and worship. Once you do, you understand it is a "way" that can be complete in itself. It can lead to more revelation from the Word in five minutes than 10 hours of the most inspired teaching. These are the oddities with these "newfangled" ways Jesus was warning us about...."They will worship in Spirit and Truth."

Worship In Spirit and Truth Part 4 by Chris Welch on Saturday, 23 April 2011 at 23:50.

The Vision of the Body of Christ.

We can tell ,you know, Daniel and I, as can probably all the members of the Move under Sam Fife, or those in Los Rios of Quilmes Argentina. These are two of the charismatic groupings who often sold up everything to join these Christian Communities.There's a rightness to this and a wrongness to our experience.But one thing was left buried in our spirit, and as I said within 5 minutes we can probably read your spirit to know whether you have a clue too- About the Vision of the Body of Christ. It's not a secret bit of knowledge that God only shares with special people.Like all the strands of Holy Spirit revelation Jesus wants everyone everywhere to catch it, but knows that while young in God we can all take just so much in our little lump of Shewbread in the Holy Place. He waits patiently for the time we are more FIXED in the WHOLE BREAD which is Jesus. At this point He can deluge us with things we may have missed in earlier stages. This I believe is going on in local and national Bodies of Christ right now. There is a filling out , an even-ing out of all that has been learnt.The counterfeit of the "experience of being baptised into the corporate Body of Christ", sharing and knowing at a deep level you are joined and knit spiritually with other Christ Believers - and actively walking in the vision of the Body building itself up in love.. Well a "counterfeit" of this had to be Communism."Party mindedness was almost a mystical concept," explained Kopelev, in Sebag Montefiore's book on Stalin and Russian Communism. The worst of what Daniel and I experienced was pure socialism or at times Fascism. This is Christian community not grounded in knowing Christ as me,still meandering in and out of the independent self. As I explain in my blogpost The One Cult, I don't even need to point fingers at other people...I don't have to look further than my own messes if I want to recriminate somebody. Without a clear walk fixed in the inner seeing of Christ embedded at my spirit core, I will bring enough cultish ways into any Christian community to "fuse" out the Body building itself up in love around me. The best part of my 15 continuous years in Christian community and Daniel's in his, means that we can "read" Christians. Because of our own histories we can read "secret agendas". We know when pastors,teachers,apostles,worship leaders own inner vision still has them seated firmly at the top of their pyramid.It all may be unspoken. Nothing is explicitly stated. It's just there in everything unsaid.You know who is at the top of the shop in someone who has a vision of the Body of Christ? It's Jesus. And His Melchizedek order.He or she cares for nothing else. You see Daniel and I have seen glimpses of the Body building itself. That's why we observe Facebook,Twitter and blogs with tremendous joy. Very, very difficult for 1st generation apostles to stick their oar into what is going on. It is all very much out of control. WORD is being shared freely without strings attached, between all the continents. The thing Daniel and I know from our histories, but that others are only just coming into is this: the Body of Christ moving in the Melchizedek order builds VERY FAST. Lightning fast.Frighteningly fast. It hasn't got pinnacle ministries to stand in her way and prevent her. Everyone is given equal chance to learn this "worship in Spirit and Truth." Revelation flies about the Body just as it does in revival. Because that is the secret of the Melchizedek Order. It is continuous revival. It revives all it touches. It doesn't try to hide its secrets in spiritual enclaves, it wants EVERYBODY to know these Spirit tricks as quickly as's an open , transparent life, ideally suited to what is going on here on the internet. It's the Church Without Walls. People say it knows no is rebellious. This same junk was thrown at Nehemiah as he sought to rebuild Jerusalem by local authorities. But you know, Nehemiah actually had the highest authority. Permission had come from Babylon itself. Our permission too comes from the very highest level, King Jesus Himself. The truth is all these "apostolic enclave" authorities, so called, actually have less authority than we have, because most of them are building in little political corners, whereas we speak right across every man made boundary and declare eternal universal Word coming from the whole of the Bible. As someone sees more, we share that too across the Body.The frictions we experience are no more than are written right across the New Testament letters, indeed before that in the disciples' own frictions in the gospels. In such environments you get Paul almost pulling his hair out, sitting people down and almost embarrassedly laying out for these conceited hearers that yes, he does have great authority, if not humanly,then certainly in the Spirit.Who was it that has braved wild animals,crowds,floods and shipwrecks? The last thing Paul would do ordinarily is stress these things, but amongst a people still living in the conceit and dreamworld of the independent self then Paul has a go at pricking some bubbles. No one has seen yet a transnational Body of Christ whose culture is rooted in the truths Francois Du Toit, Andre Rabe and Andre Ousterhuizen are sharing. Or more than this No Independent Self of Norman Grubb. Or the most advances Spirit knowhow concerning the shared corporate experience of a Body moving and meeting up with Jesus "in the air", of moving freely together in the Holy of Holies. Nor of gazillions of saved ones living out their whole lives in this realm, where it says in scripture even the pots and pans cry "Holy to the Lord." We are in an age like NO OTHER

Worship In Spirit and Truth Parts 1 and 2 by Chris Welch

Facebook on Saturday, 23 April 2011 at 23:44. This series was written on a Blackberry on Pentewan Sands near St Austell Cornwall while in our caravan.See East and West views below. The site club had paid wifi, but apart from that we had no Tmobile/Orange signal, so was eventually uploaded in 4 sections on Saturday night.

Jesus prophesied that this was how worship was to be : in Spirit and in Truth

But first an Image:A group of people returned to their block of flats and downstairs all was dark,but as all was familiar everyone piled through the door of the vestibule, waiting for the first to reach the 10 minute timer light switch on the opposite wall. Except, when the light went on they could see a mother viper in the corner surrounded by its 3 offspring. Immediately everyone's cheery nonchalance froze, and had they not known better,would have created huge noise....but instead they reacted quietly ,swiftly, by backing away in order not to further scare and incite the snakes......end of image.

Issue 1.In God's Light we see light.
Without His light we remain clueless.
We think everything is basically OK.
Picture"Careful Doreen, that chair's not safe"

For decades we have run churches not knowing "even the light within us" is darkness.We have CEO pastor preachers who have completely ignored the writings of Watchman Nee in Release of the Spirit. And Nee himself was only implementing Jesus words "in Spirit and in Truth". Preachers have preached for collective hours and hours into people's lives, yet there was no release of the Spirit...No transfer of Holy Spirit impartation in the truths preached.Without Divine Life Christians cannot......cannot grow.

Issue 2:Spirit and truth
These pastors mistakenly run their organisations as pyramid heads with what they think is a Bible backed structure, but no one ever sought to question it.Today,all over the world churches are splitting and/ or winding up. Yet no one ever questions the system. A CEO pastor goes off and starts another one instead. The Bible talks about Jesus being head of the Body, and elders not "lording it over the flock", and there being many gifts including many the one church. It speaks of NOT MANY are Fathers....seeming to imply although you may not have 30 apostolic figures,say, as you would pastors and teachers, the one church may have regular visits from say, 5 to 10 Terry Virgos. You say,I thought it was one church network,one apostle? Not according to the Bible it isn't. In the Bible, although Paul enjoyed the fact that he was often laying foundations in virgin territory in Gentile hearts,do you see one reference to Paul's apostolic network? No, it was always the Church of Jesus Christ. With our present apostolic networks it is debatable whose church they are. If Jesus tries to send in workers from alternative sources because He doesn't like the incestuousness in a particular Church ministry, even so that ministry pyramid will still, in their blindness prevent the very sent ones from having any effect. More sensitive souls fearing God, would know already that for Jesus to even specially organise infiltration from outside is already a sign that His patience is running out,possibly leading to "the removal of a candlestick." I'll give you an historic reminder and example in the form of Emsworth Church, UK. Ed Miller chided Emsworth for giving their main apostle Jorge Pradas too high honour, as if he was their head, and not Jesus. What Emsworth " heard" was Ed Miller's own disappointment that it wasn't him that had been chosen. This was not in Ed's heart I believe.With Ed out of the picture, Jesus then sent in people from "nowhere"(at least nowhere as far as Emsworth's Pyramid was concerned !).And they were all brought in to widen vision,extend truth and give warning. They were John Christie a prophet all the way from New Zealand , Costa Deir the FGBMI man who was the most

sober and drawn that I have ever seen this apostle of Joy,a Cuban ex nun called Rosita and finally and not least Maeve who had led Bono to Jesus. Churches split over leadership issues because JESUS WILL NOT supply grace enabling for one CEO Pastor as head of a church. Jesus is Head over His Church so why is He going to supply grace to a usurper? Churches have many pastors and teachers and many other ministries,and their role is to bring the whole Body into hearing the Head of the Church for themselves.
Issue 3. Truth
Spiritual truth is not really intellectual. Some who are trained intellectually will be able to relay Spirit Truth in better sounding language and some "cleverness of speech",but really Spirit Truth is Power and Love. It is revelation to your insides....that is, the very programming system on which your life runs. In a nutshell it is the impartation that the you you thought was you has died with Christ on the cross....the life (centre) you now live from is Christ, or ChristYou if you will, since your life is now bound up with,interleaved with,hidden in Christ in God. Since there is no human way of talking about this or even imparting it,all true Spirit ministries pray for a gift of utterance. In other words each time we open our mouths we are dependant on a is not really human speech at all, even though at surface it may appear to be fairly normal.When we share in Spirit and Truth people who hear us REALLY get delivered. Signs and wonders follow. These things do not follow cleverness of speech....they follow the simplicity of Holy Spirit impartation.
Issue 4.In Spirit and in Truth or Word and Spirit, as prophesied by Smith Wigglesworth when around 1947, speaking of the coming Last outpouring , is not a contradiction for a church raised on "worshipping in Spirit and Truth" Only human darkness tries to deify intellectual truth , to live at variance with the Proverbs 3:5 command of Trust in the Lord with all your heart and DO NOT rely on your insight. Because we ran churches from our insight we were unable to run them on God's twins of Spirit and Truth. Christ says out of your bellies shall flow Rivers of Living Water. We run churches out of our bellies. We are to gird up our loins with the belt of Truth.....doesn't say anything about wearing that Truth Belt round our leftbrain on our heads.
Issue 5.Until we "see in His light" we think having worship groups is OK.When the church gathers each has a component to bring but as from the One Spirit....a psalm,a hymn, a teaching,a prophecy. Why? I thought the worship group were the special people who led and the congregation follow. Well if saints are going to learn "in Spirit and Truth" by doing you'd better keep it short with the worship group, or muzzle them right down.You'd better seriously assess whether your teaching or preaching will further the aims of getting people further in Spirit and Truth. If yet again all you have to hit them over the head with are OLD Testament or worse still New Testament Laws but never pointing to the Fulfiller of those Laws within them...I'd seriously consider taking several years out of your idea of ministry and learn the Spirit CHURCH way of doing things in Spirit and Truth. I have laid everything aside for years,holding down a normal job, in order to learn. I'd seriously encourage many others to do this. After all the first 30 years was how Jesus came into His ministry. If you as a "charismatic" ministry try to minister in a Church moving in Spirit and Truth you may well be caught with your pants down....worse still...your genitals actually showing....because you just have not spent long enough in a framework where you can girt your loins about with a GENUINE Belt of Truth and you are in fact still only girt around with fig leaves. Instead of Rivers of Water pouring from your insides , the Spirit and Truth congregation look aghast as a trail of hot empty air issues from your mouth,from which no one gets fed."The sinner shall not stand in the congregation of the upright" Psalm One
Issue 6 In Spirit and in Truth then is a twin pronged attack,the one ideally suited to the other,to bring forth Christ in individuals and in corporate expressions of Christ. While we remain as "children" in the backward notion that Truth is somehow the leftbrain part, and Spirit much of the rest, we fall back into the evangelical notion of the constituent parts of a human. Largely, they believe we have some sort of pea sized spirit in the centre, round this is a larger soul, and round this is a larger body. As Daniel Yordy's updated diagram shows from New testament fact the song which says "I've got the Holy Spirit ALL OVER ME" is much more accurate . The Holy Spirit is entwined with my spirit and encompasses everything about me. This is why we say we have the mind of Christ. This is why we say we who are mature have had our senses trained according to righteousness. Spirit is the WHOLE DEAL, not some relegated part according to charismatics, who are forever trying to "get into the Spirit".It is the constant believing of what Christ says about us rather than giving flesh any room with performance related measurement devices. We have died. If I slip I return as the verse returning and rest I am saved,in quietness and confidence my strength ISAIAH 30:15...

Cliff Gableman and Barbara Hughes like this..
André van der Merwe Strong stuff Chris! Lovin' it!!
Yesterday at 00:21 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Cliff Gableman Great holiday, great word, it's all Jesus........His life lived in and through us, by and only through the power of the Spirit!!! Thanks Chris

Worship in Spirit and Truth Part 2 by Chris Welch on Facebook Saturday, 23 April 2011 at 23:46.

Issue 7. When we see "Spirit and Truth" as "God going on" we begin to understand much more about reality.God is Spirit and cannot lie.Although He Himself is at rest His purposes in the Earth were switched on at Creation and continue pretty much regardless of whether we are close to Him or not.Day to Day pours forth speech regardless. In the last century and a half women have come to the fore. Now with closed religious minds we either ignore this, trying to keep our tin container structures with their lids firmly on, or we open our eyes to see that it was always God's intention to have women co ruling with men. Because of the stupid inflexibility of the Catholic and Anglican churches women have had to rebel, and "bust out" sideways so to speak. What should have been a glorious rising appreciated by born again and spirit-filled men,through total religious darkness,became instead a messy war of first the suffragettes,then feminism, at first so much mixed in with a worker's uprising,Christian Labour, later more and more atheistic and Marxist,ending with an almost universal rejection and loathing for the whole Church.But this was never God's heart. In fact pretty much the same would have occurred far earlier if people had got hold of St Paul's actual revelation, rather than getting so hung up about veils,hats and headcoverings.He would in fact have gone apoplectic with rage at how the religious spirits had diverted his original Spirit intentions in what he wrote.Returning to "God going on" is simply abandoning the fake.It is the genuine of the phrase "KEEPING IT REAL". Each new generation longs for this and whether it be 60s hippies taking off their be just who they are...or whether it be 90s and 2000s clubbers taking the Ecstacy drug (E's as in Ebeneezer Goode,Ebeneezer Goode,E's are good,Ebeneezer Goode)in order to loosen the left-brain control on relationships, and release a chemically boosted love atmosphere......All these are attempts at returning to an intimacy, a friendly innocence with one another.....while in fact totally maintaining the original lie that is that our so-called independence is a sham,it is totally interwoven with a false spirit who keeps each generation in turn in their "Particular manifestation of bondage".Owning up to the fact that we need to be empowered by God's Spirit at all times, even to return to being the original functioning beings that God always the BIG step we each have to make.More defined than this...Christ wants to live As Us...returning us to "God going on". Jesus pioneered this walk(The Father as Him)....not to return to heaven and laugh as we try and have a go. But to shower us with the full LIGHT concerning the complete work He did for us on the Cross. The more complete we get to see was His Work, the more we get to walk away free...really free...HIM as Us!!!

Issue 8 Spirit and truth has this aspect....particularly in our early days....of quickly cutting us off from "endarkened leftbrain living". Living from what we can sense and measure means we live from Satan's and "our" selfimposed limitations. We live from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. This is the first target of all the work of the Holy Spirit to bring us into Truth. What Truth? That since conversion we in fact live out from a God who knows no limits. What use our measures and senses when we are called to "pull down" from the realm that knows no limitation. What looks messy to onlookers viewing Christian "lacks,frustrations,continual crisis living" is nothing other than the underside of the rug weave, because the glorious pattern on the top of the rug is one of believers with strong faith muscles, with Rivers of faith in their bellies. Why in heaven's Name do we think Jesus began His Kingdom course in Matthew 5 with the Beattitudes. He can hardly be accused of misselling His Apostolic Training Course! "This is how it is going to be fellas.....up for it?"So Spirit and Truth tackles our personal Darkness head on with these tools : needs,lacks,persecution. But in the Holy Spirit with these tools: all the gifts of the Spirit as well as explosions and releases of all the "fruit" of the Spirit. Initially as "downpayment" format ,individually and corporately, later as a more embedded character and gifting as we learn the trick of living fulltime AS Him. Existing ministries patronise,shield their flocks....spend endless years "describing what a good Christian life should look like" rather than imparting the death and resurrection of Christ that has occurred already at their people's centre.They prevent their flock from worshipping in Spirit and Truth, from learning how to operate in Spirit and Truth, from "piecing their own heaven together in the Spirit", preferring to transfer more endless hours of leftbrain truths to already overburdened darkened minds. As a rule of thumb....saints don't need any more leftbrain measurements , they need more Spirit impartation...some of which will be Christ's own thoughts.We were given minds to think and discover God thoughts....but that is only a small part of the vocabulary of Spirit and Truth living. Many are the very real, but hardly articulatable things the Spirit does in us....well often hard to relay at the time, becoming huge strands of teaching later on, as we learn all that He was doing. Spirit and Truth is "experience". It is substance. St Paul at one stage says he longs to visit a church to impart some gift to the believers. That is how Truth is in this new realm. It is concrete. Selwyn Hughes broke off from a course of teaching one Saturday night in 73 in London, saying he felt to minister on fear, and particularly the fear of man. He imparted the antidote, boldness and faith in God. All in the room received something "in Spirit and Truth". This was early days....but this was God's real church in action. I even had a physical manifestation in a wart on my hand just fizzling away within 2 days. Yet it had been there for months.

Gary Sigler and André van der Merwe like this..
Barbara Hughes Excellent!!
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Sunday 24 April 2011

Coming Out of Darkness Part 25 by Gary Sigler

Facebook on Monday, 18 April 2011 at 21:17
We Are Judged As Sons

"Beloved, now are we the sons
of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"chilldren) (1 John

To judge yourself

simply means

to be transparent

When you look at me, I still reflect so much of my carnal nature. I am not even close to being
perfected, but it does not yet appear what I will be. God is doing a
work in me (and in you), and one day we shall be like Him. Because of His
judgments and corrections and because of His great and mighty love for us,
there will come a day when He shall appear, and when He appears, we shall be
like Him. That’s because when He appears, He is going to appear in us.

We are children of God
right now by position. We are children because God paid the price to redeem us.
Whether a person realizes it or not, the blood of the Lamb has redeemed them.
In position, we are the children of God, but we must not just settle for the
knowledge of our position, we must grow up to become sons in character and in
nature. That is one reason why we are judged.

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are
chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor. 11:31-32).

To judge yourself means
simply to be transparent. Don’t try to hide and cover yourself up. I go to God
every day with things in my life that are still carnal and not fully dealt
with. We must be honest and transparent before God.

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of
him: for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what
son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we
have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he
for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening
for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it
yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised
thereby" (Heb. 12:5-11).

You can see by these verses that God judges us as sons. If we really understood what judgment was for we would go to God daily for His correction. I want God to judge me now. I
do not want to pass from this life and then realize how far I have missed God.
It is much better to go to God every day and ask Him to deal with us now in
whatever way it takes to correct us.

Most Christians, because
they do not understand judgment, think that the devil is their problem. Nothing
could be further from the truth. I can boldly tell you that
the devil is not your problem. We have been so blinded by some of the religious teaching we
have had. We have a tremendous problem and it is right between our ears.
It is called the mind. Carnal nature and carnal thinking
is our problem.

The only power that the adversary has over you is in your unrenewed mind. Once your mind begins to be renewed in the things of God, and you go to God daily and seek Him for His correction and reproof, seek Him to have a nature transformation on the inside of you, you
will find that the devil is not the problem. Christians for years have blamed
their problems on the devil outside of them, instead of taking responsibility
for their actions.

I have been through some horrible chastisements in the past, thinking it was the devil trying to destroy me. There is the law of sowing and reaping that has nothing to do with the
devil fighting you.
"If you sow to the flesh, you will of the flesh
reap corruption" (Gal. 6:8).

Jesus said, "Narrow is the way that leads to life" (Matt. 7:14). I used to think that
meant that narrow is the way to go to heaven and few there be that find it.
That is the traditional concept. I thought if I did good all my life that when
I died I would go to heaven. However the narrow way that leads to life is
referring to God’s life. Jesus said,
"I am come that you might have
life" (John 10:10). The life that He refers to here is the life of
the Spirit, the abundant life of the Spirit of God flowing in us. The reason
that Jesus died was so that He could take away your stony heart and replace it
with a heart of flesh and cause you to walk in His statutes.<
"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye
shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezek. 36:27).
This is why we are judged.

The narrow way

that leads to life

is referring

to God's Life

"Can the Ethiopian
change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are
accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23). God doesn’t correct you, thinking that you’re going
to whip yourself into line with your carnal nature. The judgment is to get you
to turn to Him, and then from His Spirit within you, you will find the strength
to live for Him. When you learn to turn to Him instead of trying to get your
natural carnal life to live godly, His Spirit begins to operate in you and enables
the Spirit to infiltrate all the areas of your life that need transformation.
This judgment has nothing to do with the natural man learning obedience. Yes,
you must learn obedience, but your obedience must come from the new creation
man created in Christ Jesus.
"If you through the spirit put to death
the deeds of the body you shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

Turning Your Heart to Him

If you will just spend
time with God every day to get to know him, you will find yourself being
transformed into His desire for your life. Whenever the heart turns to
the Lord, the veil begins to be removed (2 Cor. 3:16).
We must learn to turn our hearts moment by moment to the Lord
. There is none of us who are so
carnal that we cannot turn our hearts to Him at least a little every day.

This is why we are judged as sons. We are judged so that we will turn to God for the supply of the Spirit, not to get us to try and make new resolutions to do better. I used to
say "Lord, today I will do this and I won’t do that." That
does not work. If you have been a Christian very long, you know it doesn’t
work. However, if you turn your heart to Him, in your seeking of Him, you will
realize that the debt has been paid. I may have some things in my life that
shouldn’t be there, that haven’t been overcome yet, but that is because I am
somewhat still living from the carnal mind.

I cannot save myself from the works of my
flesh. We need a savior. Just because we are Christians doesn’t mean that all
of a sudden we are super spiritual persons that will always be obedient to God.
There are times when our flesh gets the best of us. Wanting to do something
does not necessarily give you the power to do it. Only God can give you the
strength and power to overcome the dictates of the flesh and live according to
the Spirit. That is why we must seek God. Remember that every time you seek God
and contact Him in your spirit, something of His divine essence is added to
your being and a killing aspect is released to your flesh.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth"
(John 4:24).

There is no other way to be an overcomer. We cannot be good enough in ourselves to please God and overcome the flesh. We must contact God in spirit. We must be
transformed by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. Even if we do have a
strong natural will and can be obedient, it is to no avail. Of course, it is
better to be obedient than disobedient, but in God’s eyes, our obedience must
be by His Spirit in our spirit, flowing into and transforming our natural life
for God to be pleased.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all
our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our
iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa. 64:6). Our
righteousness is anything we do from the natural man, or good man. The best we
can produce for God from our natural goodness is as filthy rags.
To be continued

Coming Out of Darkness part 24 by Gary Sigler

Facebook on Thursday, 14 April 2011 at 15:30
Understanding Judgment
In coming into an understanding of the heart of God, I found that judgment is a wonderful
thing. The judgment that we have been taught in traditional Christianity has
given us a false concept of God. One of these false concepts is this:
"There is going to come a day when God is going to pour out His vengeance,
wrath and anger upon humanity because of their rejection of Him, and
disobedience to Him. God is so angry at mankind that He is going to pour out
horrible tortures upon them and then send them to a fiery torment where they
will be tortured in unending agony throughout all of eternity."
We are taught this concept mainly due to two things:
1. Mistranslation of God’s Word.
2. Natural understanding, rather than spiritual interpretation.
A natural, carnal
understanding of the scriptures has caused almost all the conflicts between
believers. You can have a natural understanding of the Bible and still miss
God. Spiritual understanding of the scriptures only comes through seeking God
intimately and spending much time in His presence. The Bible was never meant to
be taken strictly intellectually with the natural understanding and
interpretation. The Apostle Paul said that the gospel is a mystery. The purpose of God is hidden from the natural,
carnal mind of man. The natural mind cannot understand deep spiritual truths.
Natural man can only understand with his natural mind. To be able to understand
the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, you must have a heart that is seeking only
God and His truth. It is very easy to get this heart just by going to God in a
very simple way and asking Him to capture your heart for His purpose and to
open to you the mysteries of the scriptures.
We will see in this
message the way in which judgment takes place. We will see that His judgment is
just and righteous, not vengeful and hateful.
"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early
for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn
righteousness" (Isa. 26:9).
"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations"
(Ps. 82:8).
You can see from the
above verses that judgment is a thing to be desired. When God judges the earth,
the people will learn righteousness and then God shall inherit all nations. God
sends His judgments for correction, to teach you His righteous ways.
Judgment Is to Be Taken Seriously
Judgment is not to be
taken lightly. If you sow to the flesh, you will most certainly reap the flesh.
"For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every
transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall
we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be
spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him?" (Heb.
In these days, we are
hearing the wonderful message of reconciliation and sonship. We can all feel
the nearness of the day of Jubilee for us. There is soon coming a day in which
the firstfruits of God will be loosed from the bondage of corruption and shall
fully reveal and manifest to the world the fullness of God
The writer of Hebrews
tells us that the gospel of the New Testament far transcends the Covenant given
in the Old Testament. The Gospel of grace far surpasses the message of the law
in that in the Gospel of grace is the power to deliver you and to cause you to
walk in the character and nature of God. That is why we are judged. Our judgment
is for correction to cause us to turn back to Him as our source of life.
Judgment is simply reaping what we sow. Our own actions is what brings judgments.
The scriptures basically teach three kinds of Judgment.
1. For past sins.
2. As sons.
3. As servants.
The First Judgment Was for the Sins of the Past
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to(1 Pet. 3:18).
God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit"
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses
unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we
are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in
Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us,
who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:19-21).
It is very clear by these verses that God is not imputing sin to us, which means He is not holding
us accountable. In Christ, we are made the righteousness of God.
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should
live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet. 2:24).
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away
the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
I often ask this question: Did Jesus really take away the sin of the world? Most Christians
don’t really believe that He did.
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the
whole world" (1
John 2:2).
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a
propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the
remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Rom. 3:23-25).
Romans 3:23 is used repeatedly in gospel messages and normally is read as a standalone verse, but verse 23
should never be read without verse 24. Verse 23 is not the end of the sentence,
but goes on to say that all who sinned have been freely justified by His grace.
This is the good news.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath
laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:6). For every wrong that I have ever done, Jesus took the iniquity on Himself, and not only for my sins but also for the sins of the
whole world.

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his
head, and gave up the ghost" (John 19:30). When Jesus said, "It is finished," the
word "finished" meant the debt had been paid.
Strongs #5055: teleo (tel-eh’-o); from 5056; to end, i.e.
complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): accomplish, make an
end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform. (Strongs Concordance)
As Jesus was dying, with His last breath, He said, "The debt has been paid."
Oh, how we need to know
the depth of those words "It is finished!" Your debt has been paid.
Do you have things in your life that aggravate you from time to time? Do you
have problems with your temper? Do you have things in your life that just pop
up once in a while that you would rather not be there? I’m telling you
according to the scriptures the debt has been paid. The judgment for your sin
"na has been paid." As I have said so many times before, you need not be condemned
for the nature that Adam gave to you. You need to be transformed by the Spirit
of God growing in you. God has already judged the sin of the world at the
cross. The sin is that carnal nature that the Apostle Paul talks about in
Romans, chapter 7, That is the debt which has been paid in full. Everything
that your carnal nature does was paid for at the cross. Although God is not
condemning us for our carnality, if we sow to the flesh we will still reap to
the flesh.

The Penalty for Sin
If what we have been taught in the past is true about judgment, if the penalty for sin and
unrepentance is eternal torment, then Jesus could not have possibly paid that
price for sin, or He would have to be eternally tormented. There is something
drastically wrong with the concepts we have received from the scriptures due to
translation errors. When Jesus said, "The debt has been paid," it was
like a divine eraser that erased the sin of the world. Oh, how the world needs
to hear the good news of the gospel! They are not going to be judged because walking
around in darkness not knowing the truth of their being a son or daughter of
We have been taught that God is a vengeful God
and that because some have lived many years in disobedience and rejected God,
He is going to pour out His vengeful wrath upon His creation. God is not vengeful
or full of wrath. That is man’s concept.
We are taught that because man has inherited this antichrist nature, and because he does what his nature dictates, that God will torture him forever in unending torment. This
ungodly message, more than anything else, has so distorted the image of our

Father God.

When Jesus said, "It is finished," the

word "finished" meant the debt had been paid.Strongs #5055: teleo (tel-eh’-o); from 5056; to end, i.e.

complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): accomplish, make an

end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform. (Strongs Concordance)

As Jesus was dying, with His last breath, He said, "The debt has been paid."
It makes the cross of none effect for those who have not the
will power to change and accept the religious traditions of modern day
Pharisees. God does not condemn you for acting out of your human life. It
is natural for you to live a human life of good and evil until Christ is
revealed in you. We experience because God
loves us and His judgment and correction is to get us to turn to Him.To be continued

Coming Out of Darkness Part 23 by Gary Sigler

Facebook on Wednesday, 13 April 2011 at 16:22
The Three Stages of Spiritual Growth Part 3

"I write unto you, Fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning"
1 Jn. 2:13).

John repeats the above
sentence twice.
The Fathers know Him that is from the beginning.
Their understanding of God goes way beyond the comprehension of Christianity. When
you know God as Father, you realize that you came out of His substance. Adam is
your Father according to the flesh, but God is your Father according to the

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Heb. 12:9).

"And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall
one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?" (Num. 16:22).

"Let the LORD,
the God of the spirits of all flesh
set a man over the congregation" (Num. 27:16).

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the
heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man
within him" (Zech. 12:1).

God is spirit and He is our Father. All mankind have a spirit.
"He that is joined to the
Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).

God is the God of your spirit, not your flesh
This is one reason that all men are included in redemption. Your spirit was
brought forth from the very substance of God. In your spirit, you and God are
one. If you learn how to live and function from your spirit, then God is once
again manifested in humanity.

There will come a day in
your spiritual growth when you will become a spiritual Father.
A Father is one who is a mature believer who carries the presence of God within him.
He will reproduce God’s life, God’s will, and His glory in others.
A Father in the natural is one who reproduces human life. A Father in the spirit reproduces
spiritual life. Jesus said,
"It is the spirit that quickeneth;
the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit,
and they are life" (John 6:63). When we learn to speak from our
spirit the words of God, then our words also become spirit and life. We can
impart life to others by our speaking. True ministry imparts life and builds up
the saints.

"Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and
read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of
Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the
living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart" (2
Cor. 3:2-3).

To become a Father means that God’s life has swallowed up the carnal life and you are now a
representative of Him on the earth.
It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.
Another way to share the three stages of spiritual growth is:

1. God to you

2. God in you

3. God as you

As God to you, you understand that God came to man.
He came to you to redeem you and restore you back to fellowship with your Father.
He came not just to the Jews, not just to the Christians, but he came to the
world. God to you is the first revelation in the mystery of God. Every man has
a spirit, the substance of God. And God came to you to quicken and regenerate
your spirit, so that you could once again have fellowship and commune with Him.

God to you
that God is for you. No matter how much sin I am in, no matter how many
times I fall and fail God, He comes to me every day with the offer of pardon
and redemption.
The carnal mind will always keep us in sin and bondage, That is
why God is to you. You need to understand that God paid the price for
every act of disobedience and transgression so that He could reconcile you to
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not
imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of
reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:19).

These verses tell us
that God in Christ comes to you realizing that you are not responsible for the
condition you are in, so it is not your fault. You are pretty much in prison to
the carnal mind. God, willing to show His love, sacrificed Himself on the cross
so you would understand that He knows that you can’t in your carnal human
condition help yourself, so He came to help you. He came to be the reconciler
that would reconcile you back to God. When Adam and Eve fell, God wasn’t mad at
them; He had already made provision for their redemption. Their redemption was
based on God’s choice, not on their choice. There are people who have never
heard the gospel, but that does not stop God’s provision from working for their
good. Eventually God’s redemption will be realized fully in them.
That is God to you.

God In You

When you realize that
God is to you and you begin to seek Him and come into a deeper understanding,
and begin to hunger and thirst after Him, you then begin to realize God is in
you. Paul told us that our hope is "CHRIST IN YOU" (Col. 1:27). Our
hope is not in a "rapture" that will automatically change us into
Christ’s likeness. That is a fairy tale and a fallacy.

The only hope we have is
Christ in us. Because He is in us, that is our hope of glory. If Christ is
truly in you and you are not experiencing Him, even though He is in you, it is,
at least in this present time, doing you no good.
Knowing it intellectually is
not enough. All Christians know God came to them to save them, but most never
experience God in them to deliver them from a life of self. We have people in
churches around the world who say they are born again but never experience God
in them to deliver them.

God wants not only to come to you with
redemption, but He wants you to realize that
He can live in you, instead of
I was a Christian for years before I experienced Christ in me. I knew
intellectually and was taught that Jesus was in me, but I had no experience of
His living through me. I experienced God’s love and forgiveness, but I didn’t
know He could live His life in me. God in me is a marvelous revelation. That’s
the "young man" that John talks about. God in us with His ability and
creative Word to change us and the very atmosphere in which we live.
That is God in us and that is wonderful. However, when you experience God in
you, you still have the flesh to deal with. So yes, God is in me, but the
self-life still raises up so there is a certain amount of warfare we must do,
not with the devil,
but with self. There are Christians who have spent years
fighting the devil and trying to pull down strongholds, when they themselves are
still little children in the spirit.
If Christ is
truly in you and you are not experiencing Him, even though He is in you, it is,
at least in this present time, doing you no good.
What we need to deal
with is not the devil outside of us, but the spirit of antichrist that is in
our flesh. Some get upset when I say that Christians have a spirit of
antichrist, but nevertheless, that is the case. Has God ever asked you to do
something and your flesh said NO? That is antichrist. Anything in you that is
against the workings of God is antichrist. In the mass of humanity, both
Christian and non-Christian,
the antichrist is at this present time ruling and reigning in a people.
Christianity is looking for this man to come in
an outward way, when all the time he is working and growing in their flesh and
they do not recognize it.
Our carnal nature is permeated with the antichrist
spirit. Most Christians are in the darkness and do not understand the very
basic things of God because of the antichrist nature that is in their flesh.

The experience of God in
you is the first step in learning how to deal with that antichrist nature that
is in us. You should never be condemned for this. You have inherited the
antichrist spirit. You did not do anything to cause you to be this way.

There are only two men
growing on the earth today: Adam and Christ. (We will deal with this more in another
chapter of Coming Out of Darkness.) These two men are growing on the
earth at the same time. There is a mass of humanity that is growing within them
the antichrist spirit. I know this is hard for some to accept, but you can be a
Christian, go to church, read your Bible, give a tithe to the church, be full
of good works, and still be growing the antichrist within you. This antichrist
is not always easy to identify. The Revelation calls this spirit
(Rev. 17:5).

A mystery is not always
easy to figure out. Babylon means confusion. I do not know of a more confused
group of people of the earth today than the people of Christianity. This is not
the fault of the people. Our leaders have taught us confusion for years. We
have some of the most popular ministries of our day winning people to Jesus,
telling them after they are saved to "Go to the church of your choice. If
you want to be a Catholic go to the Catholic Church. If you want to be a
Lutheran go to the Lutheran Church." This is confusion! God is
redeeming people and calling them out of confusion, not bringing them to
Him and putting them in it. Christians need to realize that antichrist can and
is growing in the Christian system.

I am not against the
Catholics, Lutherans, or any other people. I will go to a Catholic or any other
church to minister to the people, but I will not and cannot support that
ungodly antichrist system. That system is absolutely robbing God’s people of
their heritage. There are two mysteries in the book of The Revelation and they
are both growing at the same time. They are both growing within us, and one of
them is going to overcome the other. This is why I say that the choices you
make are very important. The choices that you make will either feed the
antichrist carnal nature within you or will feed the spirit of the living God
that is within you.
People quote scriptures like
"I can do all things through Christ"
(Phi. 4:13). No you can’t, if you are a carnal
But if the Spirit of God begins to grow in you and begins to swallow
up that carnal nature, then you can be like the Apostle Paul and say, "I
can do all things through Christ." Please don’t take a spiritual baby and
put that burden on them when you yourself can’t do it.

We need Christians who
understand these principles and can minister them to the Body and help them
grow. It doesn’t matter how many times we fall and miss the mark. Just keep
making the right choices and keep seeking God until He grows in you.
he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of
them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6).

Anything in you that is
saying no to God is antichrist. That could be anger, resentment, bitterness or
anything else that is not godly. Some people think they have been good Christians
all their lives, and then something happens that they don’t understand, and
they get mad at God. When you get angry with God, you have a serious problem
and do not know the heart of your Father. You get angry with Him because of
circumstances beyond your control. That is an antichrist spirit. We need
Christians who will be honest with God and take responsibility for their
actions. Just be honest and come to the light, don’t run away from it.

God As You

As little children, we
realize that God is to us. As young men, we realize God is in us.
Then we begin to experience God as us. All three of these stages are
progressive. The Spirit of the Lord changes us from glory to glory. As a little
child, we can experience something of the Father’s reproducing life. Unlike
natural babies, spiritual babies can reproduce spiritual babies. In fact, you
can and will reproduce what you are. However, when you begin to mature and
become a Father, you will be able to impart life to the babies that will help
them grow into children, and then young men, and eventually, Fathers.

I can’t tell you a whole
lot about being a Father because I haven’t experienced a lot,
but I can tell you what it is. It is no longer just God to you or God in you, but it is God as
This does not mean that your human carnal nature is God.
This does not mean that Gary Sigler is God.
What it means is that God’s Spirit in my spirit has totally swallowed my carnal nature. I am now as He is. I and my Father are one. The Apostle Paul experienced this, he said,
"I am crucified
with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the
life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who
loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

This is what will
produce the glorious Church. A group of people who no longer live in
themselves. Their carnal life has been swallowed up in the victorious,
transcendent, resurrected life of Jesus Christ. It is no longer just God in
His people but God as His people.
natural babies, spiritual babies can reproduce spiritual babies. In fact, you
can and will reproduce what you are.

I have experienced at times being so
caught up in the Spirit of God that I have known that it was God appearing
"For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in
them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" ( That is what tabernacles is all about.2Cor. 6:16). What a wonderful revelation, God to you, God in you
and then God as you.To be continued