The Double Bind , Satan's removal of choice , and God's Provision of Choice

 The Telegram Group  Exposing Satanic Ritual Abuse and Max Lowen's Unbrokendotglobal  website will periodically cover the occult double bind .

This is a Satanic presentation of a no choice choice . Often this is presented to children in the System or kidnapped children to make them choose a Satanic path to bind their lives and in particular to get a spoken ' I will do this for Satan'.

Whether occult or normie we have to revisit these deep inner I wills to Satan with the Holy Spirit so they are renounced and we are set free .³

Conversely this earth is to give us a choice of living eternally choosing God's will or deciding to follow our will as a supposed independent self , which strangely , as we discover from the bad fruit , was a seduction into some part of a Satanic way.

So Jews had to decide whether they heard God's confirmation of His Son at His Jordan baptism or was it thunder ?

Was Jesus committing blasphemy or was He indeed God's Son sent to take away the sin of the world by being crucified as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predicted.

In my Galatians 2.20 walk if I am led away there's always a choice .....to see that wrong has been committed .....or to go with the humanly invented reason to cover ' God not going on at all ' in the real intention.

Investigate  why Watchman Nee ended up awhile as a pharmacist  then teaching us about the watchmen in Song of Songs chapter 5.

Investigate how Norman Grubb , the founder of WEC with CT Studd  , a bit like Jesus , gets squeezed out of his own ministry . 

While the still Genesis 3 independent self ridden ' presentation church ' operates its corporation style ministries ....because its a fake form of putting on a hobbit ring , it must have some Mordor in its wake and its the true ministries that get struck. But this itself is  the Hebrews 13.13 walk that is Christ laying Himself down in order to release some more manifestation of His already complete legal victory at the Cross o these famous Ezekiel eyes that range through the earth and are the Body on earth and on heaven, see the injustices in the Spirit and see how misdeeds are being covered.

None of us get away with anything . For a start we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.  Secondly ....even if we dont perceive the details , the question is will we be truthful ? Or just say nothing ? Or just wilfully choose to say it thundered and lie .

Or that the crack soldiers put to guard Jesus tomb all fell asleep .

Or that Covid and the vaxxes was a staged event similar to man ,  the evangelist Barry Smith met who had been tasked with introducing the AIDS phials into Africa.

 

How God forms His ecclesia

Part One .

Click the Pic 

 

The Bigger 2025 Picture

 

Bible Houses - introduction : What are they ?

 

Bible House mark 1 sold in1981

Bible House mark 2 with current church buildings

( Both houses are in Emsworth , HampshireUK)

Watchman Nee felt to start what we in our churches called Bible Houses . If you are not already aware , Watchman Nee pretty well maps out everything apostolic for the first time  since Bible days . He's missing great power.   His black and white dog story is starting to get towards Norman Grubb , but still far too Taoist a storyline , even though he really lived the foundation of the modern Melchizedek Order rediscovery . His " normal " books are seminal . Release of the Spirit starts to redefine things that don't come across so clearly in Norman Grubb. Sit Walk Stand is the first modern three stage of growth book . Song of Songs comes from teachings of Madam Guyon, Jessie Penn Lewis and Margaret Barber . 

What Shall this Man do starts to break down what Norman would continue in Yes I Am . Ed Miller , Basilea Schlink and Jack Schisler all ministered the first love for Jesus message . Having penetrated the heavens and learned the praise and worship protocols , not just on an individual basis like the Merlin Carruthers books , but as the blueprint for real ekklesia in the order of Melchizedek , Ed's vision for Bible Houses was training people in revival Presence . Sometimes his Bible Houses were the epicentre of the local revivals . Like the vision for IHOP , Ed was all about the seeking God message , waiting upon God . Since the Hebrew for waiting is " active entwining " , or like psalm 84, exchanging strength . Blessed are the men whose strength is in Thee . Bible Houses were the churches first real steps in modern times for the work of the Holy Spirit to " overshadow " people to bring forth the Manchild . This Revelation 12 description is really the Spirit perception of what Jesus was doing . It's what the holy place is . If it was a partical accelerator , it's the splatting engine .....it's the revving room that re engineers what we are in the natural ..... The Bible calls us " you worm Jacob ......you shall be a threshing sledge ". We don't come out of Bible Houses manslaughtering all local villages ....we come out , as 1 John 1 says , with a testimony of Jesus . We have touched tasted , handled this personal Word of Christ that has been spoken to us in many different forms . We have believed upon it until some measure is active in our Word we share . R Edward Miller was AOG , so we trained in praying for healing , facing difficult situations , all the while that our Jacob ....the us that nobody wants to face , starts emerging . And now after Norman Grubb, we should be even more specific than we were in the light of Ed Miller and Jorge Pradas.( Montse Pradas , Nuria Pradas )  

Until our generation there has never been a generation so lasar focussed on what Genesis 3 is and how it operates . Without that Spirit definition we will never get our meetings into the rest of the City. Book of Ezra has to be rolled out into Book of Nehemiah . The carnal world works with only a trowel . We work with a sword and a trowel . Learning to do this takes longer than the world system who are all compartmentalised , all perched on the grand pyramid and all building Lucifer's kingdom . Our sword is unearthing and severing the Satan - I from the operation . Non born again church is the world . It's what occult people call the " good side of the system ", usually with sacrifices being conducted underneath , or after hours or in close passageways near the church building . Born again and charismatic churches don't fully get Romans 6 and 7, and Genesis 3. We are training in Holy Spirit protocols and the gifts of the Spirit ....but if we don't occupy our houses , and that's a Manchild term or a Galatians 2.20 term or a wise virgin with loads of oil term ..... Then we have seen repeatedly what happens with charismatics in history . They get sucked off towards esoterics . Solomon got drawn off to Egypt and magic , and freemasons to this day aspire to his rituals for " gaining help from powers " , read ....being used as an avatar by Satan to move his purposes forward while he tosses a few trinkets your way ......which often includes the rape of innocent lives . 

Until our generation there has never been a generation so lasar focussed on what Genesis 3 is and how it operates .

 All of us have to take our mind to the Cross . The Bible warns us that the message begins in our mouth as sweet like honey , but in the end it is exceedingly bitter .....like a woman in travail . This is when congregations turn back . This is when people become bitter . This is why Jesus says " Abide in My Word because if you do then you are truly My disciples ......." These furnaces burn something ....and when there's nothing left to burn .....things start turning around . If people have some experience of this in Bible Houses or maybe in the future , like Jesus and the disciples , actually as ministry teams .....they will be better practiced at sticking out the real painful bits .

 Two things have to happen .

One . The Bible never says one leader has to take on a whole church's problems . There's no such thing as a modern concept of a pastor in the Bible . It's gross hubris that a man or woman thinks they have the necessary Word to bring through a room full of people in God . God Himself only had 12 . All of us need a whole plethora of ministries, gifts and direct encounter , as well as our whole life training . ( Just to recap 1 Corinthians 12 is gifts , ministries , operations / direct encounters. Paul writes 3 lists of around 14 different ministries ). 

So the first thing is we need many third level elders so we don't have this stupid 70% USA burnout of failed Marvel comic superheroes .

Point two is we pray the Father so He dynamites out workers . So there's a Jerusalem Gate process to get ministry to the third level in 1 John 2 or in power and authority terms to Gate 11, the double portion of Gate 6. Gate 11 is the double portion gate of Ephraim and Gate 6 is the Fountain Gate of baptism in the Spirit . We know Gate 11 exists because we see that mantle on the great ones we write about . John G Lake , Smith Wigglesworth , George Jeffries , Reinhard Bonnke. If not in power gifts , in the train of influence we see Ern Baxter , George H Warnock , Watchman Nee , Hudson Taylor , George Mueller . There's a grain offering . There's an oil offering . There's an acacia box mover and shaker and there's Khavod might and power . Jesus spent 30 years on the acacia box ....or muddy field with the treasure in and 42 months in the baptism of the Spirit and Khavod Presence when He ministered . In some shape or form God directs Bible Houses . Or Bob Gordon's idea of evangelism training on the hoof , see my recent blog post in comments . Bible Houses , like Jesus creating a core , form the core of the future ekklesia in one locality . Monasteries were very ' first level ' . They weren't up to getting people out again . Bible Houses were second level and still too reliant upon meetings . What Jesus was training was thirdlevel and only because He as a man , leaving His glory aside , had trained for 30 years acknowledging God in all His ways and never succumbed to the Genesis 3 fantasy of a self empowered middle man.

Youtube, Google , Facebook and SHADOWBANNING

 Firstly, Gratitude

Have you any idea how good it is for fourthquartiles ( St John type of male and female personalities)to be able to have  a platform, any platform to speak their inner truths?   Martin Luther had to fix some theses on a church door. Until 1990 I kind of felt I might have arrived on the wrong  planet. 

What happened around 1990 ? The 1960s findings of  MIT Brain Research went public on the differences between right and leftbrain function. This gave the fourth quartiles articulation for why the creative, visionary, spiritually sensitive quartile operates so differently to the other more material based, outer sense inwards data processing quartiles.  These people have always painted their vision , articulated it in plays, philosophised in print, directed films, been futurists like Alvin Toffler in Future Shock, but for the last 200 years we have been ridiculously sidelined very deliberately because we are the very antithesis of pyramid culture.
We don't operate in a control spirit. Pyramid business and pyramid politics is extremely unnatural.
So to have a blog that has reached 3.5 million page impressions ,whatever that means is extraordinary.

This post concerns nuts and bolts. A medical doctor and writer on the 9th episode of the TTAC (the truth about cancer organisation  under Ty and Charlene Bollinger) docuseries Propaganda Exposed was explaining how his posts were reaching 17million views and the particular platform used their algorithms to cut his audience to 250,000.
Many say their  channels have been taken down  if their numbers become too influential, and their message runs counter to the current dictated agenda of the oligarchy.

If you haven't realised until now the goal of this blog is three things, two in Ephesians 4, and one prophetic.
Ephesians 4 says the goal of all ministry is to perfect and mature saints
To equip them for ministry, which is hugely about reaquainting saints in the supernatural after 250 years of secular materialism based on only five natural senses. I speak of my own experiences and promote as many ministries which practice , train and impart supernatural giftings, which is why when Jesus ascended, He gave gifts unto men. They are free.They are gifted by the Lord. And they are given in the context of the extension of the reign of God into the Earth.
The prophetic aim of this blog is to both unseal the mystery of Christ in us as us, which is the third stage of growth in 1 John 2, but ofcourse as this happens the Word divides between Light and Darkness. So we expose the works of darkness as we are told to , but the trick is to do that without becoming overly heavy and overwhelmed, as obviously happened when Joshua and Caleb revealed that the  very Land of Promise, Canaan, was over run by giants.

Two considerations

Watchman Nee only ministered to those he was able to minister to in an increasingly closed China, then he was used in international Christian conferences. However Christians had kept very good notes of Watchman Nee's early sermons and those , 30 years later, were the material for the books we have in the West. 

The power of the truth  coming from these teachings means that he has affected Christians all over the world without major hype and advertising, but like it was for me hungry to learn more after a denominational church background, now born again and baptised in the Spirit, I HEARD ABOUT HIM BY RECOMMENDATION. And this warm direct communication , like bees randomly rubbing against stamen , seems to be the design of so much of how we grow as humans, inside or outside of Christian structure. 

The second consideration is trying to be effective in our use of time .  Look at the artificiality of these staistics and tell me they are not being managed by algorithms.  It's very similar to looking at  a recording that is being artificially limited in volume to create  a uniform production level throughout a track.  There's very clearly only two or three settings for the daily access to my blog .
A  default daily setting of 200 -300 page impressions
Peaks of 4000- 6000
Absolute occasional peak settings of 12,000
This is unacceptable unless there is some bandwidth/ commercial reason for this , sharing blog usage across the planet in a viably financial manner.
In the case of TTAC, Big Pharma will crash overnight if people realise there are totally viable cheap ways to cure cancer.  In the case of the thirdlevel message, then end result spells the end for the  devil's entire operation which although it now involves control at all levels of society and thinking , is still at root a spiritual house of cards founded upon a Genesis 3 LIE.

Overall figures, and current month's figures

How do these page stats correspond?

Default capped page statistics

Indication of 3 dally possible settings

More confirmation of  3 computer rigged settings

20th Century Foundations of the Thirdlevel Move

Ever since the early Pentecostal move broke out people have been pushing back boundaries. The ministries of apostle and prophet were rediscovered in the later apostolic movement. Jessie Penn Lewis as a "father level" individual in God's 20th Century Move cannot possibly be overstated yet apart from her books , precious little is known widely. But she really affected Norman Grubb, and her writings really influenced Watchman Nee.
Ofcourse we have to thank hundreds and thousands of greater and lesser known pentecostal pioneers for literally laying hold of heaven's power in an increasingly atheistic and warlike age....but i wanted to highlight those who were pushing things towards the thirdlevel.
I could have included Sam Fife who fathered the huge early prototypes of thirdlevel church, but if you read online you will hear of many many bad bad outcomes of these early pioneers. William Branham is often described as going off the rails....but i heard the other week that the CIA made huge claims about drink problems. Anybody who starts to "get" the internal world of Galatians 2:20 immediately "crosses" the Spirit boundary much ridiculed by a world totally trapped in the tyranny of the leftbrain. Power doesn't reside in the leftbrain, so if you want to do exploits for God you HAVE to move into other parts of you....and this is why the Spirit has been outpoured, to teach us and lead us in these things.
Why Morris Cerullo? Many teach baptism in the Spirit. Some teach baptism in the Spirit and fire. But Morris was raised up to begin teaching on what he calls the New Anointing. In the pictorial form of Jerusalem's Gates this connects with the double portion anointing of the Gate of Ephraim the 11th Gate. Anointing on its own isn't enough. But in the Holiest Place we see a Mercy Seat stacked out with three aspects of Word, and IN THAT PRECISE CONTEXT of Galatians 2:20 living is the most incredible experience of Shekinah glory anointing overhead that the CHURCH has never really come into.....YET!!!!!
Why Mother Teresa? Well loads do charity works. But SHE WAITED ON GOD for decades, then in the context of Jesus living her life as her....she was commissioned to do charity work as few have done....actively eating Christ every morning in the form of the Eucharist and living out from that on the streets among the dying and homeless. This is a whole different level of Christ reaching out through the church.
ENJOY perusing. I'd love to know what you think?

The earth is flat I tell you

So we have got universalists that claim we can just march into God's Presence.We can.
And they claim that God is not angry with us. He's not.
The key is Jesus Christ.
So what's the problem?
The problem is Genesis 3. Until you "see" what happened in Genesis 3, you can "universal"

all you like. You can claim God's Love. Which, it is true, is unconditional for all of us. But sooner or later you are going to have to lose the double vision you have.....the one that you and I inherited from our parents and settled into our race about the time that" our eyes were supposed to be opened.". A bit like a permanent bad LSD trip our eyes were opened all right....but we have been seeing bogus vision ever since.
You can shout. You can scream at what some of us are saying here on Facebook, but nothing you can do or say will ever change the lessons you are going to have to learn. This is it. It's unpopular. Somebody wrote today that the stuff I write is hardly read in comparison to their own writings. Well I could freak out I suppose. But no amount of Catholic writings, or Catholic insistence via Kings and any number of armies made anything Galileo discovered any less true. He possibly only wrote it down on one fragment of paper. But from the moment he discovered it, Catholics could read book upon book, vellum upon vellum, declaring their writings far more important and in keeping with tradition.....
BUT THE FACT REMAINS the earth is NOT FLAT.
Hal Williamson and Ken Dahl can cut me off, they can claim popularity, they can go on talking for every last breath of their life....but that which Madame Guyon, Jacob Boehme, Norman Grubb, to a certain extent Watchman Nee, Mother Basilea Schlink, Mikkel Thomsen, any numbers of others here, myself....the Bible....that which we patiently reiterate is 100% accurate concerning vesselhood, seeing with a single eye, and all the types of processes in the Bible that we have to pass through to catch this stuff. That just IS THE WAY THINGS ARE. God's wisdom is once again far higher than ours...and reproduces His very Self inside us en route....thus killing about 6 billion birdies with one stone. When we understand what God is laying in us, we begin to understand what we are going through is pretty trifling by comparison.

Roel Velema on Watchman Nee

From "Christ in me" to "Christ as me"

We thank God for the increasing light relative to His fulness. Many Christians are aware that Christ is in them, yet as a Someone apart from them. We recognize this when someone says: “I am perfect in Christ, but not yet in myself”. Once this apartness or dualism has gone, and we see that we died and are one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), we can have a single eye that Christ is ALL. Then we have moved from “Christ in me” to “Christ as me”, from ‘receive’ to ‘be’.
 Watchman Nee never used the expression “Christ as me” and therefore didn’t have the full light yet, but in his following words he definitely moves in the right direction:

------

by Watchman Nee

 First we must understand clearly that God has not constituted Christ our example to be copied. He is not giving us His strength to help us imitate Christ. 

Watchman Nee or Ni To Sheng

He has not even planted Christ within us to help us to be Christ-like. Galatians 2:20 is not our standard for record-breaking endeavor. It is not a high aim to be aspired to through long seeking and patient progress. No, it is not God’s aim at all, but God’s method.

When Paul says, “Yet no longer I, but Christ liveth in me,” he is showing us how only Christ satisfies God’s heart. This is the life that gives God satisfaction in the believer, and there is no substitute. “Not I, but Christ,” means Christ instead of me. When Paul uses these words, he is not claiming to have attained something his readers have not yet reached to. He is defining the Christian life. The Christian life is the Christ life. Christ in me has become my life, and is living my life instead of me. It is not even that I trust Him as a separate, sufficient act. No, God gives Him to be my life.

Moreover, in the new life there is a law—the law that determines what that life is like in expression. It is not just that a life is present in me, for if this were all, I would then have to hold tightly onto it. No, there is a law of that life (Romans 8:2), and that law looks after itself.

The daily life of the Christian is summed up in the word “receive.” Every challenging thing that God demands of me—long-suffering, meekness, humility, goodness, holiness, joy—is not something I am, or something I do, or some virtue I acquire or attain to. It is Christ in me. Each is the manifestation of Him. Let Him be revealed, naturally and spontaneously, and that is enough.

He has not even planted Christ within us to help us to be Christ-like.

 “He is made unto us …” (1 Cor. 1:30). If He were our Justifier, Sanctifier, Redeemer, we could understand. But it does not say He does these things. It uses abstract nouns: He is these things (1 Cor. 1:30). Christ in us meets every demand of God, and every demand of the circumstances around us.
It is not in us to be humble, nor shall we find it helps to trust in the power of Christ to make us humble. Christ is humble, naturally—that is, by his very nature—and He is made our humility, for Christ is our all. Even faith and trust and obedience, if we regard them as virtues by which we attain, will prove ineffective. It is not that I trust His word, therefore I can be long-suffering. It is that Christ is long-suffering, and, praise God, Christ is in me! Once again, this is Isaac, natural, simple, spontaneous, trusting implicitly and without question, because the Father has made absolutely sufficient provision.
How can we be victorious, righteous, holy?

He is these things

A Distinct Sound 2: Controversies

,

(Picture taken from Rich Ganz's unrelated book about Corinthians)
I think I may have said this before, but it is tempting to believe that everything in the New Testament operates in a smooth continuum of the presentation of the gospel of the Kingdom to a people willing to listen, first by Jesus in the gospels and then by the 12 apostles and then Paul.

Ofcourse, Darkness being Darkness, and masquerading as Light all manner of wrangles are set up. It is part of establishing the Truth in a place. For it is not an intellectual Truth only, or else we would be told to put on the eyepatch of Truth, or the Mark Knopfler headband of Truth, but Ephesians 6 says we must gird our loins with Truth. Truth is more an innards thing which finds its expression....sometimes slowly as a clear articulation.

The clash of Kingdoms is in controversy. In Matthew we see this clash first of all in Jesus Ministry against the devil in the wilderness, and then against all manner of disease and affliction of the devil. Then as fast as Jesus is trying to withdraw to give special time for sharing with his disciples, people are turning up who, too, get healed, and despite being told to keep quiet, they blab it around their localities.

Then the controversies really begin with various individuals, and more specifically later the religious authorities. This IS the nature of Spirit Life invading a Kingdom of people who believe they are  independent selves, independently controlled god-souls....but who are, once the false seeing of Adam and Eve is stripped away, simply containers for the alien spirit power of a usurping spirit....the one who has been a thief, liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Here are two of my run-ins over the weekend.

+++++++++++++++++++++

The first one is trying to get to the bottom of George's criticism of John Madden's material. And in the process learned still more of the connection between Jessie Penn Lewis, Keswick, Frank Buchman and Alcoholics Anonymous.

A Christian inventory reveals a new creation

20 September 2013 at 07:24

  As we do our PERSONAL INVENTORY are we considering the effects of Christs shed blood in our lives?  The blood of Christ keeps our sins washed away daily along with His death, burial, and resurrection. The blood holds us up righteously and pure in the most adverse circumstances. This inventory goes way beyond a mere change of perspective. This inventory will immerse us in the reality of redemption. By taking this inventory we will see that we can walk through this life with righteousness. Why? Because we have righteousness within! We do as Jesus siad we would do. That is eat His flesh and drink His blood.
  Before we accepted Christ we were a pure "sinner". And we can still be! But once we have accepted Christ what we become has little to do with us. It’s our job to see ourselves standing in the Lord psychologically and socially, that is, in our stature and in our interactions with OTHERS. We can see this because this is what we are made into by the Lord.  The origin of  this reality has nothing to do with our opinion of ourselves. We have been baptized into Christ. Human reasoning has to be cast aside in light of the facts. We consider what God has done for us.
  It is the Holy Spirit that guides us in our inventory and into the truth of it. God will reveal to us that we (the church body, the body of Christ) have been made a new creation. Our focus is to be on the finished work of Christ and how His victory  TAKES precedence over our old ways. His shed blood actually seperates us from our sin. It is a continuing action. When you do your inventory see your complete dependency on what Christ did for you.  Do not accept a different reality regarding who you are. Our attachment to His shed blood, His death, His resurrection, and His love within us is what defines us. We have consumed His blood we contain it. Let us factor this in to our inventory.  We have the life of God.
  Our character defects in the “psychosocial” are the terrible symptoms of a lack of faith. God must be fully considered when we look at these areas of our lives. He is right there within us making His blood effectiive. Have faith in what God has done in you upon His finished work. God within us is far different than what we were accustomed to before we became born again. God has miraculous capabilities that He has placed into your heart. As He once was in this world as Jesus Himself, you are! We must keep the following in mind; the Holy Spirit lives in us because the blood of Christ cleansed out a place for Him. His blood separates our sin from us. Can you see the separation ?

• 

  Owhe Augustine O yes!

  20 September at 11:28 via mobile · Like · 1
• 

  George McLauchlin 'The Centrality of the Cross,' 'The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life,' 'The Green Letters,' 'So Great Salvation,' 'Molded by the Cross,' The Book of Romans,' all these and many others that you have read explain this in a very simple way. That you make it so unclear and confusing when it is so plan should make you ask yourself, "what is motivating me to complicate what is so simple?"

  20 September at 13:10 · Like
• 

  John Madden Could be that others don't find this complicated at all

  20 September at 17:33 · Like
• 

  Chris Welch If you look at the tabernacle which is after all only the blueprint plan of our Living relationship with God....there is an entrance area then two covered areas.
  The entrance is very public, very simple, very all encompassing without much attention to detail. This is the area George is describing. We come to the Cross...the brazen altar...where verything past present and future is covered. We then meet the Laver which is like all the baptisms rolled into one including the revelation of God's Word, of His Presence, Himself within us.
  This covers us for all time. It's a place of profound relief and release.
  It is th entrance into God's love and His reality, where always before He was a far distant God that had nothing to do with me.
  However this is the front door bell.
  This is the welcome screen.
  This is the induction in to the family.
  This is the political manifesto of what God's plan of salvation will be.
  In race terms, this is when the flag goes down.
  
  Then comes the things John Madden talks about, which start getting inside our inner spaces, and inner seeing. The Holy Place. The covered place. Where we need God's Light because there is no natural light. This is the Holy Spirit searching out the inner parts. The bits we haven't really acknowledged to ourselves as covered by the Blood. THEY ARE ofcourse completely covered...but they are not covered in our experience yet, because we haven't properly applied the blood in those areas.
  Ofcourse George's gospel seems simple.
  It's the front door.

My Comment on this : Hmmm. I don't think I understood George's position at all at this point.
George McLauchlin Thanks for your comments, Christ. The Plymouth Brethren and the Keswick conferences after them taught, and Classic Pauline Dispensationalist of our time, Miles Stanford agreed with their teaching, that Romans Chapter Six had never been properly taught by the churches.
Romans 5 taught that we are justified by his blood. We were made right with him though his finished work on the cross:
Rom 5:9-11 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV
The great men and women of God who came to Keswick, inspired by the teachings of Hannah Whitall-Smith (The Christian’s Secret of a Happy Life)* were not looking for salvation. They all, with hardly an exception knew they were saved, but like Mrs. Smith they had wondered why they still ‘struggled with sin.’ They thought being saved give them the power to overcome.
At Keswick they listened to 5 days off teaching. Day One was to show these Christian leaders that if they were not experiencing ‘power for service’ it was because the still had un-confessed sin in their lives. Day Two presented the 6th of Romans, as the cure for on-going sin:
Rom 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

On Day Three attendees were asked to write down on paper all known sins and confess them to another participant. Day Five was the day where they planned to and began to make restitution for wrongs done. In later years Day Six was a day when these folks made a commitment for mission, and many went from Keswick to missionary work all over the world. They went because somewhere in the 5 day process, as they came to know their own wickedness and lostness, even as ministers of the gospel, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and were empowered to a new level of Christian service.
It was the teaching of Keswick that lit the flame of the Pentecostal Revival in Wales in 1904-5 and led to the Azusa St Revival in the US in 1906.
Frank Buchman, who led a group (the Oxford Group) that was the precursor to AA, attended the Keswick Conference in 1908. He heard Jessie Penn-Lewis preach the message of the Cross and it changed him because, for Mrs. Penn-Lewis, the message of the Cross was not just teaching, it was a real experience she had gone though by a daily confession of sin and a willingness to experience her death with Christ:
Phil 3:10-11 ‘That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. NKJV

Buchman adapted the 5 days of Keswick to the 5 things that an Oxford Group Member needed to do to, first of all, change himself and then to help promote change (conversion) in another. (His “World Changers” movement revitalized churches around the world. The saved got “sanctified”, filled with the spirit). AA took the 5 things and made them into 12 steps. AA is clearly effective in ‘changing drunks, and we do not criticize it that it does not have a vision for changing the world like Buchman was doing because they got away from a purely Christian way of talking about God to help drunks who hated God, take baby steps toward Him.
The distinction which Keswick made was the difference between being saved and being sanctified and the proof of the understanding of this truth was in the power to bring change to others.
The split that there exists between me and John, is that John is gifted to teach, but he is not particularly action oriented and is either un-willing or is unable to move (john is more cognitive and not kinetic - Romans 12 gifts) to the position that Keswick was setting forth. John is not aware that his teaching is trying to justify self. Keswick, the Oxford Group, and AA to an extent is focused on a process (action, steps) of humbling self which destroys self-centeredness. John seems to have fused together his own combination of justification and sanctification that I myself have never heard taught the way John teaches it.
John keeps arguing for the grace of God which makes him right with God. That is not the argument. John is a sanctified, holy man of God. He is just not dead buried and resurrected as much as he might claim that he is. If he were, I would expect to hear of his experience of being ‘yet not I’ Gal 2:20 ‘Glorying in the Cross of Christ My Savior” Gal 6:14. I only hear his concepts.
The world needs to hear the message of the Cross. Millions have heard that the blood has washed them clean, but they have walked away from our churches disillusioned because no one took them to the Cross and helped them stand in the place of death and their ‘after-salvation’ struggle with sin led them to believe that they were not really saved.
Many who came to Keswick in the 1800’s heard the message spoken but could not hear it clearly enough to stand in the position that Keswick advocated..
Since meeting John, I have tried to get him to shift his position; he was remained “in his head about all this,’ and tries to fuse together the blood and the Cross (confused). They are each beautiful aspects of the same new creation and should each be fully presented.
Finally, I tried another tack, by confronting him about several resentments he expressed, hoping he would see how resentment is stopping him from standing in the position and experiencing the power of the resurrected Lord. He claims to have no resentment and resents one who is trying to call him to a higher level.
Chris, I appreciate your comments.
All that I have said here is contained in my book Absolutely Sober
The Plymouth Brethren and the Keswick conferences after them taught, and Classic Pauline Dispensationalist of our time, Miles Stanford agreed with their teaching, that Romans Chapter Six had never been properly taught by the churches.
Romans 5 taught that we are justified by his blood. We were made right with him though his finished work on the cross:
Rom 5:9-11 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV
The great men and women of God who came to Keswick, inspired by the teachings of Hannah Whitall-Smith (The Christian’s Secret of a Happy Life)* were not looking for salvation. They all, with hardly an exception knew they were saved, but like Mrs. Smith they had wondered why they still ‘struggled with sin.’ They thought being saved give them the power to overcome.
At Keswick they listened to 5 days off teaching. Day One was to show these Christian leaders that if they were not experiencing ‘power for service’ it was because the still had un-confessed sin in their lives. Day Two presented the 6th of Romans, as the cure for on-going sin:
Rom 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

On Day Three attendees were asked to write down on paper all known sins and confess them to another participant. Day Five was the day where they planned to and began to make restitution for wrongs done. In later years Day Six was a day when these folks made a commitment for mission, and many went from Keswick to missionary work all over the world. They went because somewhere in the 5 day process, as they came to know their own wickedness and lostness, even as ministers of the gospel, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and were empowered to a new level of Christian service.
It was the teaching of Keswick that lit the flame of the Pentecostal Revival in Wales in 1904-5 and led to the Azusa St Revival in the US in 1906.
Frank Buchman, who led a group (the Oxford Group) that was the precursor to AA, attended the Keswick Conference in 1908. He heard Jessie Penn-Lewis preach the message of the Cross and it changed him because, for Mrs. Penn-Lewis, the message of the Cross was not just teaching, it was a real experience she had gone though by a daily confession of sin and a willingness to experience her death with Christ:
Phil 3:10-11 ‘That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. NKJV

Buchman adapted the 5 days of Keswick to the 5 things that an Oxford Group Member needed to do to, first of all, change himself and then to help promote change (conversion) in another. (His “World Changers” movement revitalized churches around the world. The saved got “sanctified”, filled with the spirit). AA took the 5 things and made them into 12 steps. AA is clearly effective in ‘changing drunks, and we do not criticize it that it does not have a vision for changing the world like Buchman was doing because they got away from a purely Christian way of talking about God to help drunks who hated God, take baby steps toward Him.
The distinction which Keswick made was the difference between being saved and being sanctified and the proof or understanding of this truth was in the power to bring change to others.
The split that there exists between me and John, is that John is gifted to teach, but he is not particularly action oriented and is either un-willing or is unable to move to the position that Keswick was setting forth. John is not aware that his teaching is trying to justify self. Keswick, the Oxford Group, and AA to an extent is focused on a process (action, steps) of humbling self which destroys self-centeredness. John seems to have fused together his own combination of justification and sanctification that I myself have never heard taught the way John teaches it.
John keeps arguing for the grace of God which makes him right with God. That is not the argument. John is a sanctified, holy man of God. He is just not dead buried and resurrected as much as he might claim that he is. If he were, I would expect to hear of his experience of being ‘yet not I’ Gal 2:20 ‘Glorying in the Cross of Christ My Savior” Gal 6:14. I only hear his concepts.
The world needs to hear the message of the Cross. Millions have heard that the blood has washed them clean, but they have walked away from our churches disillusioned because no one took them to the Cross and helped them stand in the place of death and their ‘after-salvation’ struggle with sin led them to believe that they were not really saved.
Many who came to Keswick in the 1800’s heard the message spoken but could not hear it clearly enough to stand in the position that Keswick advocated..
Since meting John, I have tried to get him to shift his position; he was remained “in his head about all this,’ and tries to fuse together the blood and the Cross (confused). They are each beautiful aspects of the same new creation and should each be fully presented.
Finally, I tried another tack, by confronting him about several resentments he expressed, hoping he would see how resentment is stopping him from standing in the position and experiencing the power of the resurrected Lord. He claims to have no resentment and resents one who is trying to call him to a higher level.
Once again, thank, Chris, .
All that I have said here is contained in my book Absolutely Sober https://www.createspace.com/3730731
You can find A Christian’s Secret of a Happy Life and The Centrality of the Cross, and Miles Stanford's 'Green Letters" free at:
http://www.thechurchofbrotherlylove.net/.../recread.htm The Church of Brotherly Love: Recommended Reading.

"Absolutely Sober" by Creating a Sober World, Inc.

www.createspace.comAbsolutely Sober tells the story of the origins of Alcoholics Anonymous in 19th Century Evangelical Christianity. The subtitle is taken from a phrase written by AA co-founder Bill Wilson as he described the cost living a God-directed way of life in order to stay sober: Simple but not easy; a price h...

Chris Welch Why is this book above interesting? And what has this to do with Morris Cerullo's idea of a 3 or 5 Day Scool of Ministry? Well the roots are Keswick Convention's Holy Spirit initiated framework of communicating the real kernel of the Romans Gospel message over 5 days, which became the framework offered in the 12 step AA programme. In the background is again Jessie Penn Lewis. Jessie is the one used to communicate the message of Galations 2:20 as inner knowing to Norman Grubb. Her agenda wasn't even to do this. She wanted Norman to be baptised in the Spirit. So here we have further proof of the major fork that occurred because Norman, like many British people, are simply too damaged by the way they are raised in leftbrain over dependency to take the gospel at face value. "Repent,be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit." Since that time we have had two main houses in Christendom worldwide. Both valid. Both separate, when the true explosiveness of the gospel is when both are twinned, as in the coming move of God ...As Smith Wigglesworth prophesied ...a Move of Word and Spirit. But both Keswick and Morris Cerullo have both proved that major fruit can be detonated in just 5 days of meetings....SO WHAT HAPPENS SAINTS when both ingredients are put together????

My Comment : This last bit was a separate status I had written because I was so fascinated to learn of the Keswick framework.


George McLauchlin Two natures
I die a natural body, I am raised a spiritual body: 1 Cor 15:42-45

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. NKJV

“I”, (the natural body, the body of sin) am (is) crucified with Christ, nevertheless, “I” (the spiritual body) live(s)….ek etai ego (yet not ego) (yet not ‘I”) Gal 2:20

When “I” takes the position that “I” is dead in Christ, “I” then stands in the place of crucifixion and “I” then, in faith, begin to experience the resurrection. “I” then is seated (sits – having entered my rest) in heavenly places with Christ:
Eph 2:4-7 4 “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”, NKJV

While I am dead buried and resurrected and seated in heavenly places, the old man is not yet dead, as I still have (has) a mortal body. The mortal body is the repository of the old Adamic life and I will need to daily allow the Cross to cut away the old man, (the circumcision made without hands, by daily confessing sin.) It is a nasty business, “I”(the old man) has been quite wicked. But if “I”(the new man) is willing to be fearless and thorough and stand in the certainty that ALL SIN has already been nailed to the Cross, “I” (the new man) can rejoice in my daily walk in the spirit for there is now no condemnation for those who walk after the flesh but after the spirit. “I” (is) am not trying to walk holy, but when “I” find(s) my SELF (the ole nature) backslidden (still with sin as I am sure to find), I simply confess, “this is sin.” and “I thank you Lord that this does not take you by surprise, because you knew what you were getting when you bought me.” (At first I may say, “I thought I was really a wonderful Christian because I was choosing to not smoke, drink, look at pornography etc. –self righteous) (but then I begin to learn) I am so glad that you are showing me not to try to walk in my own power, but in your spirit.

The best part of all is the Yet Not I.
Once I have stood in the position that I am the body that dies and I am the body that is raised from the dead, the duality that you spoke about, what begins to happen is the self, the old man, begins to shut up. The I…I…I…I…loses its ability to tell me what to do, or threaten or judge or condemn me. When it condemns me, I say, “You are right, I am a worthless bum. Thanks for helping me with my inventory. Let’s take this to the Cross. After a while it quits accusing me. (This is not the devil, the accuser of the brethren. This is self which acts on behalf of Satan, but has been dealt with at the Cross.)

"Yet not I" is that place of singleness of vision that you mentioned. But it is no longer “I” or put Paul's way “I” no longer live(s). Christ lives in me. (not left brain, not right brain)

This is my testimony: I am dead. I no longer live. Christ lives in me. I am Holy, and perfect in Him. I have entered my rest and eternity while still here in the world. I am the resurrected body of Christ. I am the Church. And if you are dead in Christ, then I am in you and you are in me, even as Jesus is in all of us and He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. We are the Body. I am the Body. Do I still sin? Yes, I am still in the body here on earth. But I am a paradox, a wicked evil man whom God has made Holy. A sinner saved by grace. A new creation.

• Chris Welch I like all this.
   

  (I wrote this a bit too glibly because I had skim read this material and hadn't noticed the horrible phrase I noticed later upon rereading) I continue:
  Our equipment is leftbrain and rightbrain and this is shorthand for stuff we are still finding out. Both can be in Christ. Both can be stuck seeing other than Christ.
  The Keswick position is NOT CORRECT or else the Holy Spirit would not have had to raise up a totally fresh move of God beginning in the 20s and 30s with the Apostolic movement.
  Keswick became this thing which is similar to many who follow Norman Grubb right down to this day, where they read all the teachings of God, their leftbrain becomes quite renewed, but they simply WILL NOT, they REFUSE POINT BLANK, THEY CUT JESUS CHRIST DEAD whenever He brings it up....
  That we must lay the whole of our leftbrain, our conscious thiunking, our step by step mechanistic way of processing down at the Cross as part of the Adamic body of sin it is.
  
  All this is returned in resurrection.
  Loving is not leftbrain.
  Visions are not leftbrain
  Speaking in tongues is absolutely not leftbrain
  the Fear of God as in His Presence of Fire is not leftbrain, though through the teachings of the Bible we can articulate some of it to others through the leftbrain
  Only the understanding and articulation part of worship is leftbrain, like Love itself most of worship and adoration has nothing to do qwith the leftbrain
  Meditation on the Word is absolutlrely not leftbrain , and is part of what made Jesus different when He talked doctrine to the position the Pharisees were taking.
  Some measure of Keswick has adopted meditation, but usually with accompanying terror lest for one moment they should relinquish having control over their thoughts.
  Miracles do NOT OCCUR through the leftbrain. To an evangelical they are rare and seemingly random because prayers for miracles are presented to God in a largely leftbrain form, so consequently Keswick people build the theology round their experience rather than round the Word....and come up with grand theories like
  If it be thy will Lord heal such and such. Keswick people love this because if nothing happens, then they are let off the hook and God never meant to heal anyone anyway, and if He randoml;y does, then God must have meant it anyway. Superb game play that has kept them amused for nearly a century!
  
  So no, keswick people have not joined the Holy Spirit in any of the main leadings of His over the last 60 to 7- years but have tagged along in the Body of Christ at a safe distance, like the multitude in the time of Jesus.

  Yesterday at 20:52 · Like · 1
• 

  John Madden George, You are absolutely correct Romans does teach justification through the blood. However this passage in Romans is not the only passage that speaks of the blood. Peter, John and even Paul had more to say. Looking at the whole picture from Genesis to Revelation the shed blood of Christ and the crucified Body of Christ is nearly synonymous and can not be divided.

  16 hours ago · Like
• 

  John Madden I agree with being a paradox especially for the young Christian who is accustomed to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As we grow we leave this tree behind and depend more and more on the tree of life. We become fathers to those who still eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Romans 6-8 is followed by Romans 9- 16

  16 hours ago · Like
• 

  George McLauchlin I give up.

  9 hours ago via mobile · Like

• Chris Welch Don't give up George because what we are relating here is the very feedback that has become leprous in the part of the Church that calls itself born again. It is foolish to believe the whole thing binding the Church worldwide can be sorted in one Facebook status.
  I didn't pick up clearly on George's "fight with the Old Man" which is clearly the same as Watchman Nee's fight with the Black and White dogs...and who wins...the one I feed the most. All very shorthand truth but doesn't stack with the Word.

  8 hours ago via mobile · Like
• 

  Chris Welch George writes above :While I am dead buried and resurrected and seated in heavenly places, the old man is not yet dead, as I still have (has) a mortal body. The mortal body is the repository of the old Adamic life and I will need to daily allow the Cross to cut away the old man,
  This "LIGHT" which is fairly standard across evangelicalism is DARKNESS. Like Brer Rabbit and the tar baby it actually grounds a whole wing of the church from ever getting airborne.
  We are spirit. We have a soul. We have a body. The white dog and blackdog picture is soulish. It says I'm a soul. It is because I am spirit that I now say I am born again. I get pulls. I slip. But I don't lose my identity and become unborn again

  8 hours ago via mobile · Like
• 

  Chris Welch This is the big area of evangelicalism that never got sorted because they refused a living relationship with the Holy Spirit. How on earth can it ever be made real that we are spirit, if people refuse to have that identity proved in practice with a baptism in the Spirit?

  8 hours ago via mobile · Like
• 

  Chris Welch I find George's position absolutely fascinating. To me it's like someone has found a spiritual reality through the Word but then it gets filtered back in evangelicalese and "regrounded". Like spirit transactions are taking place but the mind has not quite caught up with what is going on. If John Madden's teachings are taken as a leftbrain learning course, or steps...I think George is correct that they too could become some "steps to justification"...but I don't pick that up from John's spirit as he teaches. And sure as sure George has walked with Galations 2:20 for so long it is part of his inner consciousness. One who has walked a time in this does pick up in younger ones a weaker "knowing"

  7 hours ago via mobile · Like
• 

  Chris Welch I absolutely had no idea that Keswick claimed a link this close to the Pentecostal Outpouring. Whether this is legitimate I really don't know. It could be like the Catholics claiming they are derived direct from the first church...which is surely akin to Hitler claiming he was the continuation of German rule. Perhaps it is correct. I know another huge strand was the stand made for healing in the Atonement pursued later by john G Lake and Smith Wigglesworth and George Jeffries. Some rattling of bones here! True rest is only found in the third level revelations of a Church settled into knowing Him who is from the Beginning in 1 John 2.

  7 hours ago via mobile · Like
• 

  George McLauchlin A great source for what I am saying is Steve Barabbas"s "So Great Salvation" Buy in the "Yet Not "i" bookstore. http://www.yetnoti.com.
  

  
  

  Home

  www.yetnoti.com
  

  The purpose of Yet Not I is to promote the teaching and the practice of the Cruc...See more

  4 hours ago · Like
• 

  George McLauchlin This is not doctrine, but we sang it today in Church and seems to capture the spirit of what we are talking about here. A quick goggle search puts the song writer at Keswick. OH LOVE THAT WILL NOT LET ME GO...
  
  O Love that wilt not let me go,
  I rest my weary soul in thee;
  I give thee back the life I owe,
  That in thine ocean depths its flow
  May richer, fuller be.
  
  O light that foll’west all my way,
  I yield my flick’ring torch to thee;
  My heart restores its borrowed ray,
  That in thy sunshine’s blaze its day
  May brighter, fairer be.
  
  O Joy that seekest me through pain,
  I cannot close my heart to thee;
  I trace the rainbow through the rain,
  And feel the promise is not vain,
  That morn shall tearless be.
  
  O Cross that liftest up my head,
  I dare not ask to fly from thee;
  I lay in dust life’s glory dead,
  And from the ground there blossoms red
  Life that shall endless be.
  
  George Mattheson, 1882
  +++++++++++++++++
  You can see George isn't your usual storm off in a cloud of dust person.
  
  -------------------------------------

The second thing I had a funny feeling about is from Colin Lagerwall
I really didn't like something his wife wrote a while back, and I have realised since then I really don't like what I call the South African gospel. This is not so much the gospel of say Rob Rufus who is now in Hong Kong, but it's a particular Calvinist Reformed swing against the rather glib "sign along the dotted line " evangelism of many evangelical and charismatic churches there in the last decades. Both aren't necessarily God....although God can use both positions...because He moves BEYOND our rather thin understandings.
I wrote on my status:

Chris Welch

4 hours ago

Colin Lagerwall writes "Exclusion is a word which proclaims the antithesis of faith, for if 'I am' excluded from anything of God unless I have the faith to believe......." My answer was : I think this is coming out of total reaction to a leftbrain South African experience of "sign along the dotted line evangelism". It's like trying to correct one leftbrain truth with another opposite leftbrain truth.

If we are not in faith we are judged already. It's the John 3:18 dilemma He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God.

God seeing the whole thing comes from outside the spider's web and invades it and corrects it, and you are shortcutting this in the global picture by saying see God loved us all along and did the whole thing all along...which is also true. But by declaring that big panorama too soon you actually cut across what Jesus spoke Himself, which is kinda rude. It's like you are afraid of the reality of the Darkness and have to call it Light all the time, even down here. I guess we can do that...but it robs people of their own right to their own faith. And this is one of the problems with trying to hold all of God's stuff simultaneously in a South African leftbrain.We need the whole Word . I guess a similar thing would be to just talk Isaac all the time and not to include the entire Abraham Isaac Jacob package. Isaac is a good example because he really represents us getting everything on a plate.