Spirit is Spirit, neither to the left or the right

We can view most things Jesus says as enigmatic. But they are not. They are Spirit. That's the difference. When interpreted through our human thoughts and feelings they become tainted. We go to the left or the right. The Spirit is single eyed and walks straight ahead. This is the subtlety with proverbs by the way. It's not a Tree of Knowledge Book. Don't go left go right. Don't go right go left. It's a Tree of Life book....don't go left or right....walk in God, walk in the Spirit.
Let's take a real world example. Kisa Emmanuel Amos
Kisa is right in the thick of it!!!! He is ministering the gospel as an evangelist right in the middle of the new planned Muslim hub of central Africa ...Iganga. It's almost similar to St Paul wanting to minister in Rome, the centre of everything. Kisa was reporting back his success, and I said...well I am not concerned with your success in ministry...but I am really happy about what Jesus is doing in you and through you. Making the point that Jesus often did with His disciples.....no man can do great works....but we can be vessels for God to do His stuff through us. That's one side of the Truth. But the Spirit did say the other side of the Truth namely that because Kisa has identified with the gospel such that he has been willing to be imprisoned 38 times, be beaten such that he spent 3 to 4 months on crutches, and also was poisoned in prison, so that he had to go to hospital....the Holy Spirit Himself is making Him a minister of Jesus Christ in this precise place at this precise time. Jesus on location in Kisa's body as Nancy Gilmore would say.
This morning I was writing about apostles.
This subject too has two sides...both are incorrect.
Barnabas and Paul were called gods at one point, because of surviving lethal snake bites. As soon as Paul and Barnabas pricked this bubble...the hearers wanted to stone them. There is a reverence for ministry that is pure DOG'S BOTTOM. It comes straight out of Satan's Kingdom. And this is the spirit Paul and Barnabas were addressing. Actually God has a special type of person He has lovingly created to destroy DOGS BOTTOM spirits. He is called ST MARK. These are people people. They are the Darin Hufford s.
Their God given purpose is to remind all humans that they are in the end humans. Every ministry should have one in tow. They are like the kings who employed jesters who always cut them down to size.
But for St Mark's God has designed another beautifully crafted arch nemesis who reminds them....humans aren't just humans
although made lower than the angels....God crowns us with glory and honour
He puts on Transfiguration episodes which wow everybody
He reminds us ....actually we are spirit.....and spirit awesomeness squashed temporarily and awkwardly into molecular flesh and blood for a while.
He says if we say (in our hearts more than anything) blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord, then we shall receive a reward from the Lord, a blessing from the Lord. St Johns are hot on this one.
So ministry when described in flesh terms is always an enigma. Either over revered in a dogsbottom sense....or underrevered and people miss Spirit coming through flesh.
Can you see though....once you have a single eye you are able to see Spirit for what it is. Spirit is NOT enigmatic...it is SPIRIT going on. It's viewing things in separation....with a Genesis 3 hat on.....with bogus inner seeing which infected us all from the Fall....that makes things appear in a prism of enigma. WE ARE AT FAULT. It's not Spirit.
Elaine Waterfield knows what it is to be used by God as a nothing, so nobody is going to fool her that by putting on white sheets and various forms of bling and being "ordained" that that is going to add to anything Jesus is in her. It may open various doors for the ignorant in England who still have dogsbottom spirits, but in the Spirit of God it doesn't make any difference at all.

At spirit level everything is from Source Life or derived life, God or the devil. At soul level things are to the left, to the right, straight ahead, or shades of grey all over the place. Never mix the two realms.

Likewise on the other end of the spectrum I was writing about how the Anderseck's are SO INTO apostles they almost are at the other extreme and he probably needs to spend more time with the Union brethren like Merrill Thompson, Mikkel Thomsen, Sylvia Pearce, Brian Tandy Coatney Fred Pruitt Nancy Gilmore and DeeDee Winter . In the thirdlevel of Christianity ministry almost has no meaning. Why? Once you are all walking as Jesus Christ in you as you...all you can really do for one another is add or confirm the things God is at work and willing in you anyway. At any point prophecy,speaking a Word of faith,praise,worship, hospitality,love are in your life anyway and you will be well on your way in your own personal "impossible" commissioning anyway.
When you see "an apostle"....always look carefully in the Spirit. Do you see a pyramid? With the "apostle " on top. Or do you see a family of individuals being raised in Galatians 2:20 around the guy or gal who all know how to walk as Christ in their forms? Mostly what we see are pyramids of "charismatic apostles" who wouldn't know how to reproduce after their own Spirit kind even if it was an overhead menu screen in a Macdonalds outlet. So look carefully. Do you see family members all taking the main positions??? Yup. Thought so !!!! Flesh has tremendous leverage over its own!!!! Who is my family Jesus asked.....all those whose will is to do the will of the Father....so He was surrounded by a whole mishmash of different unlikely types. LOOK FOR THE UNLIKELY TYPES !!!! And that isn't quite the same as compliant, bespectacled quiet Luke and Mark characters that don't ordinarily say boo to a goose. No....LOOK FOR A REAL MISHMASH....people who wouldn't ordinarily be seen dead together!!!!!
That's God's family!!!!! That's ministry.

Three Excellent Into The Wild Podcasts with Darin Hufford

Personally Christine and I have been caught up with decorating a space attached to our house. This has meant time for listening to podcasts while painting.
If you only have time for one catch the third.
One and three are a continuous item.....a mature concept of grace.
But the second one is kind of related in that it discusses how we see the daily power of God

In the seventies in the UK the new churches split into two main streams ....one was more openly powercentered and evangelism centered around Bryn Jones and perhaps Terry Virgo
the other was around the London brethren and John Noble, and tended to emphasise Fulness of Life and living, which is what their magazine was called :"Fulness".

If you know the lightnings of God, His fire, His anointing, sometimes these sort of talks can be confusing, but in my spirit I knew what John Noble was saying was as correct as what Bryn Jones was saying. Today I know also that Darin and Jasmine are saying similar things to John Noble.

I cannot put much here now.....but meditate on this if you start freaking out.
When the disciples asked Jesus how to they could have greater faith He replied enigmatically about servants first working in a field, then serving the master in the House. There is a mystery here about how God brings forth the people of God. Some are too HOUSECENTRIC and only that....some are too FIELDCENTRIC.....but they are both related....

AND FINALLY.....the tables are turned.....and Jesus says to mature saints

RIGHT....you do the Ordering of the meals to eat.....YOU SPEAK THE WORD OF FAITH and as you are now SAFE SONS Knowing about the Yoked Life of Me living in you as you....

I WILL BACK YOU UP!!!!



Click on each image for the podcast messages.

What to Expect When You Are Expecting
Darin and Hans talk about the misunderstandings of the grace message and how people choose to use it as an excuse to do nothing or to live wasteful lives. Darin talks about a new book that is coming out by his good friend Paul Anderson Walsh called, “Grace For Grownups.”

Power Walking for Real People

Darin and his friend Jasmine Pambakian have another “Into the Wild” conversation about what it really means to walk in the power of God. Being raised Pentecostal, both Jasmine and Darin were led to believe that a true Christian should be experiencing God’s miracle power in their everyday life. We were taught that walking in the Spirit meant that we should be in a constant state of victory at all times. Miracles, healings, prophecies, and moves of the Holy Ghost should be an everyday occurrence. Unfortunately, neither Jasmine nor Darin have ever witnessed anyone accomplish such a life. So what does it really mean to walk in the power of God?

Beating The Rock - Darin Hufford

The way of the heart,
the way of life,
the way of creativity,
invention,joy,purpose;
the way that is discerned subliminally in Psalm 19 :Day to day pours forth speech .
This all stands in direct juxtaposition against the "known" way that has entered into the lore of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


So as long as we live among loonies of the opposite gospel to Proverbs 3:5 ,
the ones whose statement of belief is
Trust in your insight with all your heart and lean not unto your Lord....just so long will we be perceived as the loonies, the ones upsetting the applecart, and we will never have the security of an instruction manual, BUT We Will Be ALIVE in God! - Chris Welch


The article below was first posted on the Free Believer's Network page by Darin Hufford. This posting has new illustrations by ACW.

There’s a story in the Old Testament where Moses and the newly liberated Israelites are fresh in the wilderness just after having escaped the Egyptian army through the Red Sea. The Israelites are thirsty and immediately start complaining. God tells Moses to take his staff and strike this rock in the middle of the desert and water would flow from it. Moses obeys, and water springs forth. Enough to quench the thirst of over a million people and their animals.

Later on, the Israelites find themselves right back in the very same place and in great need of water. Like clock-work the people begin complaining and Moses goes to God for answers. God brings Moses back to the same rock as before, but this time He tells Moses to take the staff, gather the assembly together, and SPEAK to the rock before their eyes instead of striking it.

Moses, in his anger and frustration, gathers the assembly together in front of the rock, takes his staff, and strikes the rock two times. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

Moses pays a great price for this little episode. God takes from Moses the honor of being the guy who gets to lead the people into the Promise Land. He was only allowed to stand upon a mountain and see this land from a distance, but he couldn’t lead the people into it.

For the first ten years of my Christian walk I shook my head at this story. It didn’t seem fair. In fact, it angered me because Moses was the most obedient guy in the bible, and God held him back from entering the Promised Land for something as stupid as this. The punishment just didn’t fit the crime in my opinio n. If THIS is what it takes for God to strip His promises away from us, I thought; then we’re ALL screwed. I eat this kind of disobedience for breakfast. Moses made this one little mistake after giving his entire life to God, and the Lord takes away the very thing Moses worked his entire life for. So much for the word “PROMISE.” What’s up with that anyway? What kind of a God would PROMISE you something and then not give it to you for getting pissed off at the same people God Himself wanted to wipe off the face of the earth just one book earlier??

You’d think that God would be even more understanding with Moses when it came to being upset with these particular people. Moses does something as simple as striking a rock instead of speaking to it and God takes everything away from him in an instant?

Years later, as I began to know the true Heart of God for relationship, this story took on a completely different meaning for me. I began to see the purpose of the two incidents being recorded in Scripture and what was really taking place in this story.

The first time the people needed water, God told Moses to take his staff and strike the rock two times in front of the Israelites. This is a picture of Christ being stricken. It’s also a picture of law. Moses is given exact directions on how to get the water and he follows them to a “T”. It’s almost caveman like. He strikes the rock twice with the same magic wand he struck the Nile river with, and water gloriously springs forth. All he’s got to do is follow the formula and the magic happens. It’s heartless. It’s mindless. Even a monkey could do it.

The next time around however, God instructed Moses to SPEAK TO THE ROCK. This is an entirely new covenant!!!!! This is a picture of the very essence of the New Covenant. It’s a picture of RELATIONSHIP. Can you see how this story goes from following rules andformulas to trusting in intimacy? Scripture later explains that this “Rock” was Christ, or a picture of Christ. He need not be stricken twice. He was crucified once, for all mankind. It is not rules and regulations that bring us closer to God at this point; it’s simply believing and trusting.

The reason why this is such a devastating story is because Moses insisted on doing things THE OLD WAY. He was presented with the quintessential spirit of the Promise, and he rejected it in front of the very people he was supposedly leading towards it. The lesson learned here is NOT that Moses should have obeyed God’s instructions, but that NO ONE can enter into the New Covenant realm through Old Covenant formulas. You cannot have it both ways.

The Promised Land wasn’t withheld from Moses because he disobeyed God. It was withheld because he embraced law-mindedness over intimacy. His “Believe” was put in the wrong thing. In fact, the Promised Land or the “Kingdom realm” is hidden from anyone who rejects its essence and relies on law to find it. It remains invisible to the man who attempts to obtain it through obedience, ritual, or formula. In fact, the law itself becomes the blinders that make such a person stumble around in darkness, unable to behold the Kingdom. Paul once said that, “... for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.” (2 Co 3:14-15)

Whether we want to admit to this or not, the sad fact is that Christianity HAS subscribed to Old Testament beliefs and because of it, we have not witnessed a damn thing! This is precisely why the vast majority of Christians in every denomination DON’T WITNESS. It’s not because they don’t care and they don’t want the Gospel message spread to the ends of the earth. People aren rsquo;t witnessing BECAUSE THEY HAVEN’T WITNESSED ANYTHING!!!!

In essence, God was saying to Moses, “Put down the stick.” It’s time to lay down your little sacred tools and start trusting in something entirely from the heart; relationship. This must have been a difficult request for Moses. He had come to rely on his staff. He had come to believe in all the tools, objects, and utensils that he personally supervised while they were being overlaid with gold and silver. We always associate the Pharisees with those who loved and relied on the law, but remember it was Moses who actually wrote it. ThePharisees even referred to the law as, “The law of Moses.” Imagine how difficult crossing over from the Old to the New must have been for Moses.

In this particular Testament-Taste-Test, Moses favored the Old wine over the New. He was the first in a long line of people who would make the very same choice. Christ Himself said, “No one after drinking Old (Testament) wine wants the New (Testament), for they say, “the old is better.” This was true for Moses and it’s true for most of modern day Christianity.

Sadly, the very heart of this story with Moses is being played out week after week in churches throughout America and the rest of the world; and just like Moses and the Israelites of his time, I see millions of frustrated Christians with their staff in hand, striking this rock, and that for all they’re worth trying to get a drink of water. They’re dying in the wilderness without getting so much as a glimpse of the Kingdom that was promised to them. Our leaders lead us towards it, and even right up to its edge, but they themselves never enter because they choose the old over the new.

Sadly, because Christianity today does not want to give up the Old Testament, we have done our best to weave both covenants together in a way that makes them void each other out completely. We’re safe, and then we’re not safe. We’re loved, and then we’re not loved. Salvation is free in one moment, and then in the next it’s not. We’re forgiven, and then we’re not. We’re paid for, and then we’re in debt. We’re not under law, and then we are. God will never leave us, and then He does. We’re set free, and then we’re caged again. We’re given a guarantee of what is to come, and then we’re told there’s no guarantee. It’s all free, and then we’re charged for it.

Christianity has become a deadly roller coaster of contradictions and confusion at every turn. We take people to the top, give them just a glimpse of the Kingdom, and then we go into a nose-dive into a world of fear, insecurity, confusion, and condemnation, followed by a series of loops and turns that actually make you believe you’re going somewhere. The problem is that when the ride is over, you’re right back where you started, and there’s a guy ushering you off the car and pointing towards the exit sign until next week.

This is a picture of what happens when we refuse to let go of the Old Testament and fully embrace the New. We simply cannot have it both ways. It’s like watching a guy get married, but still maintain a “single-man” mentality in his heart. He destroys himself, his wife, and their children. Marriage only works when you give yourself over to it fully and let go of the single life forever. The difference between Old Testament and New Testament is that now God is married to us. Though HE has not changed from one covenant to the next, THINGS have changed. The intimacy that He desires to share with us now, is a thousandtimes greater than it was then. There’s NO room for the Old covenant in our hearts anymore because we are married now. In the Old Testament, we dated Him. He kissed us good night at the end of of the day, and we waited until the next time He showed up. Today, however, He lives inside of us. We sleep together and are one in every respect. To intentionally bring back the Old Way is a betrayal to the very heart of what we have with Him now.

The more I speak with Christians from all over the world, the more convinced I’ve become that this generation has absolutely no idea what was accomplished on the cross. I think people are trained to just say, “Jesus died for our sins” without having any depth of understanding beyond that. Amazingly, I’ve found that even pastors and teachers are almost completely ignorant of the changes that have taken place because of the death and resurrection of Christ.

I honestly believe that this is more than just a theological misunderstanding.

There is something hypnotizing and alluring about the law. Pastors literally get a high when they go through Old Testament passages concerning the temple rituals and the law. They’ll memorize the priestly procedures and go over and over them in their mind like an obsessive compulsive person. Even the mere mention of grace sets them off and causes an inner panic. They despise the freedom brought on through the cross because it threatens to strip away the very thing they’re addicted to - control.

Every area of a modern day Christian’s life is so saturated with Old Covenant residue that I honestly wonder if Christians today would even choose a New Testament relationship if it were offered to them point blank. Most Christians have no comprehension of what that means. It quite possibly wouldn’t even be attractive to the average churched person in America.

Most of us have been raised in a world where Old Testament thinking is the dominant mindset. Every single principle in Christianity has been poisoned with this thinking.

When we worship, we believe that God shows up because we’re told, “He inhabits the praises of His people,” so we do our best to lift Him up so He’ll “show up.” When we pray, we do so with a “God is not in us” mentality. We throw out fleeces, pray the prayer of Jabez, and listen for an audible voice from the sky like Moses did. We even focus our eyes on the upper right-hand corner of our bedroom as though He’s somewhere out there looking down on us.

When we give, we sit around and wait to receive something back because we’ve been taught if we give freely, we will receive freely. We read our bibles because we think we’re still in the same predicament as King David was thousands of years before Christ. We think we have to meditate on it night and day or we won’t ever know God. We even refer to our bible as “The Word” as though the Word never became flesh and dwelt among us. We go to church thinking we’re still in the Old Testament Era when God’s temple was a tent or a building that people come to in order to meet with Him. Rather than embrace that WE are now the temple of God, we prefer it the old way. When we do show up to church, we do so with the same Old Testament mindset that people had in Moses’ day. We wait for our leader to go to the mountain top and get the revelation from God for us. Rather than know and hear God as individuals, we have traded that New Covenant attribute for the way it was before Christ.

Several years before I ultimately resigned from being a pastor, our church took part in the National Day of Prayer. This is a time when all denominations come together and set aside our differences just to ban together and pray for our nation. The key verse for this particular event was 2 Chronicles 7:14

“ If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”
This bible passage was plastered on billboards, canopies, brochures, and flyers all over the city. This passage completely negates the cross! It puts us right back in the pre-Christ time period when everything was based on works and law. Amazingly, I don’t recall one single Christian in my group of almost thirteen-thousand saying a single word about this. They all bought it hook-line-and-sinker. Today’s Church has eliminated the works of Christ altogether. Is it any wonder why we show up to these events with our staff in hand, striking any rock within reaching distance in an effort to get just a drop of water? We are a generation of women at the well who politely refuse Christ’s offer to give us living water that will spring up within us. We don’t want that. We like drawing water every day. It puts us in control.

I honestly believe that the only difference between the Old Testament lifestyle and modern day Christianity is that today, we don’t sacrifice bulls and goats. There is no doubt in my mind that if given the opportunity, many churches would go as far as to resurrect the whole sacrificial system again. According to the theology of a great number of Christian people today, the only ones who benefited from the death of Christ where the cattle and the sheep. Because of what Christ did, they get to live. We no longer sacrifice them, but other than that; NOTHING else has changed.

This mentality is what I referred to in my book, The Misunderstood God as an “Anti-Christ mentality.” At any point where we hold to Old Testament principles, we are embracing an Anti-Christ position. We are rejecting what was accomplished through Christ on our behalf. Our religion proudly proclaims the death of Christ on the cross, but we routinely deny the resurrection. Oh, don’t get me wrong; we pay it lip-service, but when it comes to what we teach and preach every week; we don’t believe a word of it.

We are infatuated, enthralled, enchanted, enamored, and hopelessly in love with Old Testament thinking. At the risk of sounding offensive or off color, I want to define exactly what the spirit behind modern day Christianity’s obsession with the Old Covenant is allabout. This generation detests intimacy and prefers to do things manually. They actually enjoy “beating the rock” if you will. It’s SO MUCH EASIER than

having to actually have relationship and involve another person. The “manual” way gives us all the control we crave, and make no mistake about it; our infatuation and attraction towards Old Testament principles, coupled with our complete disregard for the intimacy required in the New Testament relationship, is without question, a perfect picture of spiritual masturbation. It’s a way to avoid the intimacy of lovemaking and become one with ourselves.

If that offends you, let it, because this is the state of Christianity. Our religion is afraid to commit to the New Covenant completely because it knows the moment it does, people will be set free and they won’t continue to serve the system. Eventually everyone gets tired of the sticks and stones game and they want something everlasting. As long as we continue to vacillate between law and grace we will never experience the spring of living water from within that Christ talked about to the woman at the well. Our generation spends Sunday after Sunday beating the rock, in an effort to get another sip of something that was promised to us fully and naturally through Christ. Christ's words to the woman at the well are just as perplexing to us today as they were to the woman he was speaking to. We haven't found this water because we refuse to put our staffs down and speak to the rock!

Darin Hufford



Related post..................

Darin Hufford talks to worship leader Heidi Venie

Click photo for Part 1


Darin and Robert talk to Darin’s friend Heidi Venie from Alaska. Heidi’s an ex-worship leader who left the institutional world almost one year ago.




Click for Part 2
She discusses her path in the wild and how God is healing her from spiritual abuse. Heidi represents thousands of ex-worship leaders who decided to live in the wild rather than succumb to a system that promotes performance over authentic worship.Heidi has a unique perspective on the heart of God. She isn’t a person who bought into the teachings of organized religion and had to relearn God’s heart when she got out. Heidi knew the truth about God’s heart long before she left church. She has a wonderful husband and two beautiful children. You’ll enjoy her heart in this conversation.

Click for Part 3
Darin and Heidi discuss the last two podcast shows and the reaction of some of her old church members to it. People took it personally and some were quite angry. Heidi opens up about how liberating it was for her to finally stand up and tell her story. There is a power that comes upon each of us when we stand up and proclaim our story to others without regard for personal consequences. Many of us have been raised in a religious world where “talking” about certain things or just plain speaking our mind is forbidden. We have been taught to shut our mouths and go with the flow. The moment we stand up and proclaim the truth in any situation, there will be division. Truth divides. The power to bring freedom to ourselves and others rests in whether or not we are willing to speak the truth.


Click for Part 4
Darin, Aimee and Heidi Venie talk about how difficult it is for the inner part of us to embrace and live by the truth about God’s heart while the outer voice of religion speaks lies and manipulation. Heidi talks about how she learned to do just that while serving as a worship leader in a local church. This is technically part 4 of the earlier interviews Darin did with Heidi when she was in town from Alaska. This is such a great conversation that is beneficial to both Free Believers and people who are seeking truth. Learning to listen to and trust our heart over our head is a life long assignment for everyone of us.

Comments from page 3 of FBN podcast site
Heidi, I have the utmost respect for you! It is so important that those of us who have been there, or are there know that we are not alone. Thank you so much for putting yourself out there, taking the risk to share your heart and set others free.

Ringtales
Sep 09, 2010yep, i still get the "the service was AWESOME!" adverts, yaaaaaaaaaawn! been there done that! literally got the program over and over and over again, i KNOW how much of it is bogus, sheer imprisoning religion Heidi, bless the gentle Beauty of your heart, the enduring Kindness of your soul, you have strengthened my Hope this morning. Thanks Darin.

Warren Aldrich
Sep 09, 2010Heidi, I cried when you were talking about your abuse by that church and losing your child and not being cared for by your husband and church. It pisses me off that you were not taken care of, and you put it well when you describe it as "rape." No wonder this is still raw to you. To my sorrow I also abandoned my wife and kids for ministry many times and for many years working at a Bible school/church. I pray that God continue to heal the hurt and bless you with his love. Thanks for sharing so vulnerably. Warren

Carol
Sep 13, 2010It is hard listening to these podcasts because it hits so close to home. Heidi, I feel your pain and share in your desire to tell your story that will help others to freedom. My family and I are still walking through the healing process of so many yrs. of abuse that totally changed us and left us bleeding and dying. Thank you Heidi for having the courage to speak out and thank you Darin for the presenting a "safe" place for people to speak. When you receive criticisms just remember all of us out here who are finding our heart and voice from sharing this journey w/ you.

Starla
Sep 13, 2010Amiee..LOL "Gag reflex"..that is beautiful...I am sooo there with ya! hahaha loved it!

Deb C.
Sep 13, 2010Heidi I'm sure you will receive a lot of flack from your old church for doing this, but rest assure that many more people will be helped by this. When I stood up and gave my story, my pastor called me a liar and the people in my church acted like I was a pagan satan worshipper. 6 years later most of those people have left that church and contacted me to thank me because what I did, set the pace for them. I think pastors wouldn't do half of the stuff they do if they knew for sure that people would talk. You go girl. Thanks.

L.J.
Oct 16, 2010yes, the weekly gig... I hope God has a plan of restoration from all this... thanks for this.. so much more I could say... but just don't wanna type it.. C u...

Tony
Oct 16, 2010I could so totally relate with many of the things that Heidi described; former worship leader, etc. -- many of the "performance points" were unspoken rules, observed and mimicked by others . . . i.e. you have to somewhat follow the model, even if you're different. You can't coax folks to worship, if they are not feeling it ... the "song selection" was always a pain, it had to be just perfect. There were some brilliant moments of "corporate worship or praise" but not enough.

denise
Oct 16, 2010Right on! blessings to you! it's soo awesome to hear you speak out truth!!! Rock on !!!! God is soo awesome! He loves us soooo much....we don't have to fake it...JUST be who God made us to be and no 1 else!

Amy
Oct 18, 2010Lots and lots to chew on... woow weeeee!! :) Been having the same conversations you guys with my hub.. what does it look like now? Can I share what might seem like a really silly picture? I totally dig that movie The Matrix... and more and more religion represents the Matrix to me. So my question to God has been, "Do You send people back into the Matrix, to offer the message of freedom, grace, and the Father's heart?" I wonder if there ARE those that have the grace and the love in their hearts to go and, in a sense, be freedom fighters and go in and share freedom with people that are ready for that message. I have been asking God about that one.. A person that is like a Neo or a Trinity that knows the system, but isn't a part of the system. I don't know. Just some ideas popping around in my head. In my walking this area out, I have come to a huge revelation that I am created to connect with God and people through music. I thrive in it.. I adore it... it so moves me in deep ways.

Amy
Oct 18, 2010Music IS such a powerful vehicle! And personally, I have been on the hunt for "freedom" music. Music of grace, of unconditional love, of being included and in complete relationship with God, of Christ dwelling within, and walking that out.. I have so so wanted that and been seeking that out for myself. And I think it would be so amazing for artists, and worship leaders to begin to write songs in the midst of their journeys to freedom in Christ... in the wild. How cool that would be? Aimz, I loved what you shared about that No Condemnation song being an anchor... music is so that for me too. I can listen to a particular song and it brings back floods of memories and feelings of when I first heard it, you know? Anywho, Darin, Heid, and Aimz.. you 3 have totally rattled me, and got some gears churning.. thankyou for sharing.. love you guys so much!

Amy
Oct 19, 2010P.S. Would so love love to hear from other musicians/worship leaders on this topic. I don't know anyone that is here in this space. What is God unfolding for other people in this area? Would so love to hear! :)

Aida
Oct 19, 2010I thought it was a great point that worship can be expressed in many ways and I could really relate to Darin’s comment about sermons being worship for him. Although I was never a pastor, thoughts and concepts come alive as I verbalize them so I’ve always enjoyed teaching and public speaking. Writing and music just don’t satisfy that inward desire for me and, since I rarely have face to face contact with other free believers, I always tend to feel bottled up. As a result, when I do finally get a chance to talk to someone who knows where I’m coming from, it all comes out at one time and I tend to talk non-stop. Heidi said that she didn’t know if she’s ever going to have a chance to worship as she had before and I’ve come to the same conclusion. Part of me feels very lost because I can’t worship in the way I was created and it’s possible I may never be able to. That’s still hard for me to accept but it is what it is so I do what I can even though I always feel somewhat unsatisfied.

Shannon Brown
Oct 19, 2010I wasn't a worship leader, but was the go-to person for the lastest Christian music. I would make mix cds of songs that spoke to my heart and share them with whoever wanted them in my church and elsewhere. Occasionally I would play a song that was on my heart during a service. Music was huge in my life and still is...for me it expresses what is deep in my heart that I am not able to put into words. I encourage Heidi and whoever else has it on their hearts to make music that is full of hope and freedom. This kind of music is needed! Like Heidi, as I read over things I wrote while still in religion, I find His love and freedom underneath the confusion and despair. My heart knew there had to be something more to this life with Him, but I couldn't find it where I was at. Not until I left it all behind, did I find who He really is. It has been very healing to hear your story Heidi...thank you so much for sharing it.


If this interview speaks to you please use the comments section below.

BBC Series Victorian Pharmacy : Managing Change

Victorian Pharmacy is a brand new, quality BBC Production which recreates the social history and environment surrounding pharmacies in the Victorian Era. It is one of those programmes that is pleasing on many levels at once. The presenters are animated and enthusiastic. The research is second to none, and consequently presenting how remedies were made and applied is both accurate and amusing. Camera work and lighting, as you see from the stills are immaculate. But even more is revealed as the pharmacy is put into its context of a unique society. The information and pictures here originate from Episode Two.




Victorian society is unique in this way. Perhaps it was the last truly "old-fashioned" society, based on customs and mores from time immemorial, while the new scientific thinking was just breaking through into people's consciousness. In other words, many stupendous discoveries were just starting to be made across all the disciplines of science, but they were as yet too new to have made too much of an impact. Yet from this time on, the empirical approach resulting from hard science would gain ground, and out of this the very way we live our lives, which really hadn't altered a great deal for centuries, would completely change.
So studying a pharmacy isn't quite the narrow study you would expect.

Here are some elements.

As new science emerged, a new understanding of our daily world emerged too. Ideas behind health and healing would changeand consequently medicines would change.




The secondary element covered by the programme was traditional and the placebo effect. Traditional medicine did not disappear and still hasn't. Some of the tried and trusted herbal remedies still exist for a reason. They work. Others continued to be used because they were traditionally thought to work. Some of these, which have no rhyme or reason to them whatever, continued to be used because of the placebo effect. They were confidently and authoritatively dispensed, so for that reason alone, and with no basis in scientific fact, the purchaser would confidently take them expecting to improve, and they did.

A third element had more to do with what was fashionable. In today's society firms have to be very careful how they word their sales pitch.But still today, as then, items were purchased simply because it was fashionable behaviour. "Because you're worth it!"

One of these customs surrounded the fashionable feminine behaviour of swooning. Who has noticed that ladies don't generally do this any more....unless extremely excited by the presence of pop stars.s!

The habit of swooning, feigning swooning or threatening to swoon was the socially acceptable and attractive( to males at any rate) way of demonstrating their position as the weaker, dependable sex.

The pictures show how pharmacists prepared smelling salts : white ammonia salts collected from stale pee and smelling of such, in a solution which was then soaked into a sponge, (in order that less was used,) topped up with something to disguise the bad smell, like essence of lavender. This was then sold with a high price tag.

I wonder if any regular blog readers have already caught where I am going with this. If I was part of the "Discernmentalist Mafia", I would be comparing swooning with Toronto Manifestations. And dubious clips do appear on Youtube. But there are also great clips, such as the one where a baby goes straight out in the Spirit. (How many mums and dads are thinking I'd like some of that at 3 am in the morning?" )

But no, this post is about managing change in the Church and although triggered by the analogous changes demonstrated in Victorian Pharmacy, it turned out more than usually prophetic of 3 occurrences last week. Firstly, a surprise initial visit to our house from our University friend Mike Terry who was at Exeter University with Christine and myself.
A former naval commander during Falklands, he has just passed a Theology degree, flabberghasted us all by marrying (even later than me) and both he and his wife,American Nicky Sue, run separate local Anglican churches. Bear in mind that as a piano tuner and salesman I either tune or have sold pianos to many ministers of all denominations in the area...so not a few acquaintances are familiar to both of us.

The second element was hearing a podcast (No.10)between Darin Hufford and Frank Viola,two names pretty synonymous with Emerging Christianity in the USA.

The third element was my first ever meeting after 11 years alongside Christine with Peter Stott, who is effectively the senior overseeing pastor of Havant Church. He kindly spent 3 hours of his time with us and some basis of relationship was taking place. These 3 occurrences are entirely relevant to the subject of Managing change in the Church worldwide.

So let's work out from the Victorian Pharmacy.

1. New science was emerging, so new treatments and more hygienic behaviours were appearing.



2. Traditional pharmacy was often slow to change even if, from a scientific point of view,it could be proved to be of no use at all.



3. The placebo effect was often king.




4. Some practices were not just pointless, but both the remedies and the "conditions" in the first place were totally spurious, only existing for another reason entirely : to drive an entirely manufactured form of social interaction. Fashion.

Every stage of corporate and individual Christianity has its wineskins. Its attendant structures.

Before Luther, Christianity had pretty nearly been reduced to the taking of Catholic Mass. The Eucharist. For a more in depth understanding read Frank Viola's "Pagan Christianity"

Luther restated that justification was by faith. Not works. And the ball began rolling again, as each subsequent generation started to get more revelation from the Heavenly Sanctuary, whose earthly 3D diagram was the Old Testament Tabernacle and Temple layouts. This is actually what happened, and things are an awfully lot simpler seen in hindsight. The Anabaptists discovered water Baptism, but also believed in the "washing of the Word". So, without going through everything on this post, but if putting our faith in the Christ on Calvary is the same as approaching the brazen altar of God's judgment, and baptism as a believer is represented by the laver, which also represents the cleansing operation of God's Word, His scriptures......then you can pursue all manner of movements since then, like Darbyism which represented meetings where believers gather round equally to share God's Word in the manner of the Table of Shewbread, and Quakerism followed by later pentecostalism, this sense of meeting in the Holy Place, where there is NO NATURAL LIGHT....no pure reliance on intellectual understanding, but reliance on a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

It cannot be emphasised enough how big a change has come on the worldwide church in the last 100 years through Pentecostalism. This is related also to the Holy Place.

Now each type of church usually begins in Pyramid format, with a leader and congregation, typically matures and then more and more people grow into leading roles. If a leader's vision is all about him being leader, splinter groups form underneath his cork in the bottle approach,and they then hive off with perhaps a greater revelation, to either begin the same pyramid cycle, or to learn to proliferate in a more generous and organic way.

So what happens in the Third Level? The level represented by the Holy of Holies?

Is this where we now are? Well, in the USA, it means walking out of what they call the IC (Institutional Church)and learning the whole Christian Life from scratch based on a completely new set of findings. This would be the angle of Darin Hufford and Frank Viola and many others in the Emerging Church USA.

Neither Mike Terry representing Anglicanism, nor Peter Stott representing quite a serious seeking of God -charismatic-independent church seem to have fully grasped the unusual nature of the hour.

Some of the American believers who have left IC, are still in seeking mode. Others have been in finding mode.

Through my own prayer of desperation between 1978-1987 I too was led into a completely new understanding of things, and the substance of it remains pretty intact today. See the bloglink to the 1989 message "Third Level Christianity". Events drove me out of a charismatic church to spending a whole 10 years or so outside church altogether and learning a bit about how this third level works.... or, maybe, as I have said before, to thoroughly ground me in the true 2nd level before launching into full-fledged intercessory operations. Norman Grubb calls these faith commissionings.

How do traditions change? 1st level churches had seminary trained pastors. They had national conferences around Bible speakers. These became much more colourful in the 2nd level with the ability to sing praise and worship with completely new songs, spontaneous flow, singing in tongues. Leadership became less reliant on seminary trained individuals.

3rd level stuff is even more loose, organic; based entirely around real heart relationships, not the professional ones that still existed sadly in the charismatic setups. It's more about transference of the Living Word, from out of someone's genuine life experience straight through to other people's spirits. Do we go to church? We are the Church. The Church is doing what we are doing.

How does worship work? Well it should be purer. But that's really the wrong question. Or it's a 2ndlevel question coming out of a 2ndlevel mindset.

The truth is this. The whole idea of 1st and 2nd level church is blown out of the water by 3rd level realities. It's like someone coming into the pharmacy asking for a cure for an atmosphere of bad miasma. Science had just shown that the whole "miasma" world view was complete and utter baloney.

The problem was bacteria and you needed to wash your hands, because they were transmitted through air, water and by skin contact.

Here's a typical internal shift in our new reality.

June Melanson posts this excellent quote from Martin Kronback on Facebook "NEED "MORE" OF GOD?" People are looking for "more of God" We got the ALL of God in Christ but it's a mystery. "We carry this treasure in earthen vessels"..."if the same Spirit that raised Christ that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you..." That's because you are already "United with Christ" 100%... if you are born again‎(Romans Chapter 6) Rest in the I GOT IT ALL ON THE CROSS . True Sanctification is a fruit of that rest. No glory to us, but to HIM BE ALL THE GLORY!
We recieved a perfect gift like a Pandoras box (but positive) we got the full gift once but... it opens up in new dimensions and this treasure unfolds itself in and through us. We need to rest in the gift of Salvation!!!!!!!!!!

I tried to clarify this further:

It's the unspoken side of "More of God" that's the problem.What on earth do you mean Chris?Well,included silently in the equation is you as an "independent being" leaning out over a clifftop reaching with flailing hands to try and include "more of God" into your "separation existence". And we get so annoyed when our prayers aren't answered.

It's a similar frustration to Joshua asking the strange looking man "Are you for us or against us" and getting the reply "No!"

You can hear Joshua going"What d'you mean no? That's not an answer!" Then the angel of the Lord effectively says "Because I am the Commander of this show...and you...fall into line!"

In similar vein God would also say to us "I'm not answering your" more of God" prayers", because firstly I am not going to add my glory to your delusion of separation and secondly,I already answered your prayer 2000 years ago and you've just not been listening. I killed your delusional "separation existence" at the Cross and both raised you up and REPLACED you with Me...so how am I gonna add more of Me to your old-fashioned now out of date delusion!!!! "

Mike Terry approached things from a very interesting angle. He said that a Messianic believer

had been talking about the Bible representing both the priestly and the prophetic.But here the meaning of priestly is as in Anglican priest incanting repeated formulaic phrases into which people meditated and prayed. So Genesis 1 was more in this style, whereas Genesis 2 and 3 were more questioning, more prophetic in nature, cutting to the heart of things. The prayer of Jabez is more of a formulaic prayer, as are many many of the shared Israeli prayers. Mike stated the example of Catholic Rosary prayers and the Anglican system of using set services which people knew by heart, and could settle into with the things that were on their heart that week.

The point of singing new songs and choruses repeatedly has the same kind of meditative intent.For me personally, the routine of piano tuning has a similar meditational function, so I cannot really argue too much.

Mike also made another oft repeated point. That church history is filled with schism and why should it be so?

I have thought about this seriously this week and sought to address both topics in a Facebook message to Mike, also including information about our meeting with Peter.
----------------------
Chris Welch 24 July at 16:48
There are certain structures and frameworks.Daily routine/structures of things to apportion responsibilities.The Bible calls these wineskins.The big one is Genesis 1.
No generation yet has learned how to hold the wineskins(the smaller ones)so lightly that the Holy Spirit only has to whisper and we change them.

In Genesis 3 the devil enticed us into a whole new existence where we live thinking we have a separate life from God and we make our own choices from a Tree of 2 extremes.Good and evil.

The opposite of the Tree of Life is not anarchy but order.Man is held in a form of check,a cage of the law of sin and death until they live from the Tree of Life.

Religion and politics are two fierce arms of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The pliable wineskin filled with new wine ends up shortly as the dry cage of religion's next generation.
The e-cclesia-Greek- is the called out community ...German root KIRCHE-KIRK-Church.

The church is always called out by the Tree of Life to extend the borders...to suffer outside the city and bear reproach there Hebrews13:13.

To date no generation has learned how to move with the cloud....and even those Israelites that did fell in the wilderness.
Individuals have.Derek Prince for one.So we know its possible.

Jesus said the Kingdom field would be a mess.Good seed and bad seed.All seed is known by its fruit.

He also said seed has to go into the ground and die.We as individuals do,but on a much bigger arc the Church has too.

Luther was used at the Church's lowest point to start the trek through the heavenly Tabernacle again.The OT was a poor picture version of the Eternal reality.

Luther put his flag in the soil
Reintroducing the New Covenant version of the Brazen altar.
Each move since has taken us progressively further.

No generation has studied how church works like this generation.Initially we youngsters "moved"out from where we were because we did not yet have the authority to speak into the previous move.
I personally am at a crossroads which is why your visit was so extraordinarily timed.
You see,in America,the new move which believes the things I put on that tape cassette in 1989 on the Third Level see my blog(obviously they never heard this tape but the Spirit has taught them)have all left their churches and are calling themselves "Free Believers".
I became established in these things spending 10 years outside a church1988/99....but I believe in the vision of the church local and international.So it was pretty significant meeting I just had on Friday with our senior leader in Havant.The question is...can this generation walk at home with God's fire...or does He again have too recruit elsewhere once more beginning a totally new wineskin from scratch.
Jesus said take out the old treasures as well as the new.
I think you would agree that the church take this to mean old treasures=traditions. I believe it means that which is of God that has been revealed. So for us, it is the scriptures, notable writings that are tested by tons of saints over time, and also every confirmed revelation that has come since Luther. Certainly many of the Anglican practices are not confirmed among the international body of believers. The same goes for the Catholic practices, from whom Anglicanism is largely derived.

During our time with Peter, Christine and I were able to share about the good and the bad of both our times in charismatic churches. We both lived through the strict shepherding periods which came as a result of Yonghi Cho's teaching,Juan Carlos Ortiz and the Fort Lauderdale men.Peter shared the angelic prophecy given in the 50s that a "false move" would arise in Fort Lauderdale.Norita Roberts shared that one with me, and it tore me in two at the time, because what had come through Ern Baxter both in the 1975 Kansas City Shepherd's Conference, and the subsequent Lakes,Capel and Harrogate Bible weeks were SO anointed that I defend them to this day. But now that I see the 3rd level clearer through Ed Miller's eyes, I can see that most of the leaders who shepherded us were 2nd level themselves.

You can read more about the distinctions here,

but without clear 3rd level dealings in your inward parts, you cannot help discipling people to you....and not to Jesus only. You also, like Jorge Pradas, will have this annoying habit of being chief apostle to a set of churches, when Jesus alone determines His own apostleship to a church, either directly by revelation,or choosing who He may from a whole raft of prepared 3rdlevellers.

At no point is an apostle in charge of a congregation. Neither is a pastor.Churches have many pastors.Jesus is the one maturing His church. ("You have not many fathers") But this is how it was in Jorge's framework, and how it was for Daniel Yordy in the Move under Sam Fife. Who knows, is that why Sam died early in a plane crash....because Jesus wanted His church back?

Ed Miller attacked this pedestal positioning of Jorge Pradas by Emsworth. People thought it was sour grapes, because Ed wanted that position. I actually think Ed had more understanding than that, because he always spoke of ministries as Taxi Drivers to the Throne of God.

To be fair on Mike Terry and Anglicanism, they also understand that ministers are not there to build people unto themselves. If bishops sense any leader doing this, they tend to get moved on in the system somewhere else. But the Anglican system actually favours the other extreme, not caring too hoots whether you are even born again. In fact in most Anglican Churches it is positively discouraged. So right there, you have the opposite extreme of cultish behaviour.

So, like the Pharmacy then, we could say that a certain amount of formalism allows for personal meditation, or we could also say it performs the function of a meaningless placibo that makes people feel better.

Please listen to the podcast of Frank Viola and Darin Hufford because it will introduce you to the hearts of these men. You will hear a more 3rd level approach when they are talking together.

They are not vying for limelight. They genuinely love, respect and honour each other's contributions and they both have one thing clear that is analogous to new science and the Victorian Pharmacy.

Both understand "Christ as us". Both talk about Jesus living our Christian life.

2ndlevellers talk about the Holy Spirit and them, or even Jesus in me. A few years ago the Elim movement ran a promotion in Britain called JIM....or Jesus in me. But the understanding is always God and a separate me with a bit of Jesus inside.

This non separate internal revelation of Christ in me the very hope of glory is what marks this new move out. Rather than even pick their way through the myriad complications of American Church life....they have upped and left.....to BECOME IT in their daily lives.

When the Catholic Church formed,(In my opinion, the Catholic Church began on February 27, 380 when Emperor Theodosius issued his edict, De Fide Catolica, in Thessalonica, published in Constantinople, declaring Catholic Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire.)

and their attempt at owning the previous history of the Church is downright dishonest, many left in droves for the wilderness. Without a clear "seeing" of what it means to live by the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, as a spiritual empowerment, the religious, or Tree of Good component is SO DANGEROUS, true believers can be forgiven for running for their lives....for the Devil has been a murderer from the beginning.....commencing with the spiritual death of Adam and all those still found in him, and continuing with the King of Glory Himself.

So right now at a personal level I want to open up to a community that God is forming in Havant.If there is any residue hurt that comes from my past that sullies any behaviour towards saints, then may it be flushed out.

But I can trust Jesus on this one, because He is my Life.

If on the other hand , there is a denial going on in Havant caused by them seeing more than God in themselves or other believers, and still a separation in their thinking,

and the same sort of expressions that Jesus lived with like "Who is trying to kill you?....you have paranoia...or they actually said "you have a spirit"

Well yes Jesus did have a Spirit....the Holy One. And He read the thoughts and intentions of people's hearts.....and they surely did kill Jesus.

So the big question is:

Am I moving from hurt?

Are they just in denial? And using this as an excuse not to hear the "New Science"

Or both.

Is Havant just enjoying old Pharmacy medicine a little too much? Not really realising there are no miasmas, only bacteria. That a lot of their problems stem from the old way of seeing, and now it is totally totally irrelevant in the New Light God is blazing from His throne.

In the following linked article I spell out more of the meaning that I felt was being typified by the Victorian Pharmacy.

The Church that Christ built by Darin Hufford and letter to new leaders

We've got a slightly bizarre relationship with the Church here. God is definitely building something....but for the last 11 years we've not really known whether their patience will cease and we'll be out on our ear. (It's a bit like John Clarke's and Eldred Linden's relationship was with Emsworth)God has been in this though, because before the contingent arrived from Emsworth,myself included, God warned them of our arrival in a prophetic Word. Which kind of eased the way a bit.

Apart from men's weekends, I've not spent any time with Peter and Mariette Stott, and only an hour in 11 years with John and Wendy...I've been trying to dodge being drawn into furthering any 2ndlevel churchbuilding, while sneaking 3rdlevel stuff in through the cracks in the walls.

They've tried to draw me into music, because it seaped out that I play a few things. They've tried to get me to go to other countries with them. But the only thing that interests me is the outer reaches of key of David meetings. I just do not want to be seen ever again in any way supporting the "fake" superstructure of secondlevel churchbuilding...built on the lie of the independent self. If I had enough authority in the Spirit I would pull down all the works in Spain and rebuild 3rdlevel versions that are built on knowing Christ and Him only. No Genesis 3. Nothing!!!

For the last 3 years we've conducted a household policy like Darin's article below, which I read only this week. Here is a letter I wrote to the new leaders.






Hi Roderick and Angelina (names changed)

I wasn't there on Sunday but congrats on taking on more of a leadership role.

I thought I'd share some things that became clearer the other night while Christine and I were sharing with Nicholas and Pam. This concerns some light on light!
Dovetailed with this has been much more clarity on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil versus the Tree of Life. (see facebook)

But first, a ground rule or 2.
The prophetic in us looks at situations, not at face value, but at the direction arrows that these situations point to.
It gets preachers into a lot of trouble.
So in World War 2, preachers saw Hitler as 666, and preached him as such.
Hitler wasn't 666 as it turned out, and they got egg on their face. But in the Spirit they were 100% accurate. He was moved by the Antichrist spirit....and if we'd have allowed him to continue...who knows where he would have ended up.

I got into trouble with Jeannie (Martin and Jeannie) who had just become ill , because in the meeting I had prayed over her, but first said this, which surfaced from my insides..." Jeannie, we just praise God, because the WORST that can ever happen to you is that you die and live for ever and ever and ever and ever with Jesus."

What she heard however, was a curse, which she began praying against for months afterwards. At Roger's leaving do she began telling me off really strongly for cursing her. This, from that moment on, tied my hands with having anything further to do with her...for instead of seeing me praying at the Rowans, she would have seen a warlock cursing her.

What the Spirit was really doing however was addressing this deep rooted fear she had about dying. Who knows...if we could have just unseated that one, maybe we could have prayed better. Jesus had a similar spirit confrontation when He announced...Don't fear the one who has power over the body, fear Him who has the power over the second death.

So sometimes the Spirit comes out of us to knock something on the head. This was happening throughout the gospels through Jesus.

Why is this relevant? Well, do you remember how i shared with you how frustrating I find some of the meetings? And then I said that odd phrase...which you returned back at me.."I'll smash your face in brother".
Not very Christian is it?
But in the Spirit it means.....if there's a choice between Havant running a nicey nicey meeting....and proclaiming the Word of the Lord....

You know , I'll forgo the relationship.....and do the equivalent in the Spirit of smashing people's face in....in order to get the Word out...because the Word literally brings the atmosphere of heaven down. Now ofcourse, no one's face really gets smashed in...but it is the kind of Spirit violence that makes a choice according to the scriptures

Unless you hate your mother ,brother,sister.....then you can have no part of me. We have to allow all soul ties to shatter at the Cross in order that we are free to love Jesus....and here's the surprising bit.....in order that we are now free to love each other with renewed love. More about love in a bit.
30 years ago Jorge Pradas taught me that every meeting had a key or keys, that brought the Presence of God. As I was sharing with Nicholas and Pam this week I saw these weren't just keys.....they had the same role as in Genesis 1. They were the spoken Light that bound darkness, that annhilates it. The reason the Kingdom comes tangibly when we have found the keys to meetings is because we are literally BINDING a bit more darkness, and the kingdom comes in power. We are opening up a few Ancient Doors...to use Peter's picture....and the King of Glory comes in!!! It's not just any old meeting. It is the gathering of the saints to see a little bit of history accomplished. Exciting no?

Back to relationships etc....
I spent the best part of 10 years in Christian community. 6-7 years in round the clock 7 day a week , 2 meetings per day seeking God kind of fellowship. It was a forerunner to Key of David stuff but, 30 years ago. Heaven doesn't seemed to have changed too much though!!!!! It's still brilliant.

I was rather thinking that we were building relationships. I mean you could be forgiven for thinking if you spent this amount of hours with folk...that something was forming.

Then I was chucked out. And until Facebook, just about 100 percent never talked to me again. For 20 years.

Now Angelina's probably thinking...."Aha....that's why he's weird . He's been hurt badly and needs healing."

Maybe. But I think there's a better reason.

Jesus was 24hours a day, 7 days a week for 3 years with His disciples. How many were with Him at the Cross? Did the Father then pray for Jesus's hurts when He ascended into heaven? No....it says Jesus knew what was in them (the disciples). We as charismatics just wander around blissfully naive.

How many were there standing on the Day of Pentecost,braving every human authority, having been utterly utterly
broken by their previous inability. Yup. All 12. (well one was new).

John in his letter 1 John2:12ff speaks of 3 stages of maturity.

Acts 2 was when all 12 were ready. They were mature.

How's this affect things then? Well it means I wouldn't give a bunch of charismatics like Havant house room, save for sharing more about how we reach a trustier level of maturity. Until people really know that they know that they know they are in the third level.....I wouldn't trust them as far as turning on a lightbulb. They'll sell you down the river as fast as they can.

Until people are rooted and grounded in Christ, they are NOT rooted and grounded in Christ.. When they are, they'll tell you, in loud confession,Jericho style. Until then they are just like Israelites marching round and round the same mountain waiting to die in the wilderness.

Human love is meaningless, and when it's not convenient people will just......well.....hate you. You can say what you like about Havant....but they just are not all that different from Emsworth 30 years ago . I know you feel you are. But where is that confidence coming from....flesh.....or Christ Himself?
Christ's love really breaks out in a congregation full time....when people KNOW that they KNOW that they KNOW who they are. Until then....we're stuck with the "earnest" of our inheritance which is manifest in meetings....

but because saints don't know the third level tricks of living outside of meetings....it stops there...at the meeting house door.
_____________________________

Obviously, this assertion can be taken negatively...or people can

bolshily reply "I do know who I am. I have died with Christ.It

is now nolonger I who live but Christ who lives in me"....in which

case...I'll say...the provocation worked...we got a confession out of

you ....now the Holy Spirit will overshadow you and make it more

real. (Believe in your heart, confess with your mouth....and you will

get the salvation, the realisation.") If there's a quiet sullen response

I'll know my assertion rests.

__________________________



Christine and I made a decision after Table Talk.
We will only relate with people who want to relate with us. We'll let God bring people into our vicinity.

So far we have a handful of real friends, and we're watching God add. This will seem radical to a church based in its roots on Brethrenism, as was Emsworth.

Brethrenism is all about "the meeting" imperative which is placed above relationship.
Below this is another brother who has found the same.
Something profound went on in my insides in the last glory conference. Peter never meant Greg Haslam's visit to be a kick in the stomach. But ,to be precise his book cover on preaching, which featured my 70s pastor, had this effect.

What God was doing through it was showing me that as nice as Havant is....I should handle the church with a lot of wisdom, because my relationship, which I had taken to be deep, is really one degree only above meaningless, as characterised by this "international guest speaker's bookcover". I would love God to establish me here with Christine....but it has to be Him doing it.

I've "done" with 2ndlevel churches. They are dangerous places. Roll on the Book of Acts. Not the old Pentecostal Church model....but the real one in the Bible. http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/04/actual-acts-2-without-pentecostal-specs.html

Chris

The Church That Christ Built

Darin Hufford

I am coming to the conclusion that the Church that Christ is building is something quite different than what we have been taught.
I can recall studying the "5 fold ministry" while in Bible college. At the time we were taught that
those five ingredients are what make up the Church. Where Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are functioning together; there is Church.

Rather than understand that particular verse to mean that these things will exist in the Body of Christ worldwide, we have foolishly interpreted it to mean they must exist "underneath one roof". I've even seen Churches advertise that they have the "5 fold ministry" in an effort to draw a larger congregation. There are articles and books written on whether or not these five things are working in today's Churches. When we build a new Church great time and attention is put into making sure that all the necessary ingredients are present when the doors open. The theory is that if we have an Apostle, a Prophet, an Evangelist, a Pastor and a teacher all within our congregation, we will have everything we need to "do Church". It's very much like opening your own McDonalds or Jack in the Box. Once everyone is in place, it's time for business. You need an owner, a manager, an assistant manager, a fleet of workers and you're good to go.

About two years ago I started taking a close look at my life and the lives of people around me.
Everyone I know has their own personal circle of friends they hang out with. It may consist of family members, people from work, school, internet or their neighborhood. Every person I know has their "Inner Circle". It usually consists of between 5 to 10 people. They have other friends as well, but those people wouldn't be considered "Inner Circle" friends.

To be an "Inner Circle" friend, there just has to be something that causes a mutual connection
between the two of you. There is no recipe for it, and one can never predict when it's going to
happen. You can't force it, plan it, cultivate it or even command it to take place; it literally blooms totally on its own. I have found that only certain people can "jell" together on a level of deepness that is not necessarily shared with others. It's almost as though they were made specifically with the other person in mind. In a realm only known to God Himself, these people fit together like pieces of a puzzle. In fact, I believe that they were brought together by the Holy Spirit. Only He sees the inner structure of each individual soul and then finds another soul to connect snug and tight. It's unexplainable and cannot be manufactured or re-created by human hands in a million years.

I have an "Inner Circle" of about 10 people. These are folks that I'm super close with. Our connection didn't happen in an effort to fulfill some Christian obligation to meet together and perform relationship once a week. We all connect because we fit. We knew it the moment we first met. I have many other friends that I absolutely adore and love spending time with. I'd even die for them. They mean the world to me; however they are not in my "Inner Circle."

My four year old daughter brought out a "Hello Kitty" 100 piece jigsaw puzzle the other day and

asked me to help her put it together. The box said that it was for ages 6 and up so I knew it wasn't going to come together without my help. As we were laying out the pieces and turning them all picture side up, my daughter started screaming with excitement. She had found two pieces that fit perfectly. The problem was that though they fit, they didn't go. The picture didn't come together. As I took a closer look at all the puzzle pieces I was surprised to find that many of them were the exact same shape. This is confusing for a four year old girl. All she is thinking about is getting the pieces to fit. She is too young to understand that there is a bigger picture being formed when all the pieces are in their proper place.

When mankind sets out to "build a Church" we are very much like my 4 year old daughter. We think that "fitting pieces together" is what it's all about. It's ironic that man would even set out to build Church when Christ Himself said "I will build my Church". Only He has the blueprints and the final picture. The most we can do to build a Church is snap two pieces together that fit, but have nothing to do with each other when it come to the big picture. That is exactly what I see happening in the Institutional churches across America. They try and try with all their might to dictate and orchestrate relationship on their terms, and they do it all in the Name of Jesus. It's no wonder the Body of Christ today resembles a Mr. Potato Head that was put together by a deaf, dumb, and blind 4 year old.
There's an arm sticking out of the eye socket, the lips are where the ears go and the eyes are on top
of the head. It's a mess.

If a "men's accountability group" is meeting every Tuesday night at 7:00, YOU NEED TO BE
THERE!!!!!! We are told that every man needs to come and connect with all the other men because they need that accountability. The problem is that the pieces don't go together just because they say so. A room full of men does not equal pieces that fit. Even if they are all Christian men who know the Lord well! You can manipulate and obligate these men to "go together" all you want, but it won't work. We have been taught if we are Christians, we should all fit together with that "Inner Circle" type of intimacy. WRONG!!! Jerry and Todd may both love the Lord and be brothers in His Name, but
neither of them were made to be put together. YES they are a part of the same picture, but they

were never intended to connect with an "Inner Circle" connection.

The sad thing is that Jerry is told over and over by his group leader or his Pastor that he needs to connect with Todd out of Christian love. So Jerry tries with all his heart to make that connection. He secretly beats himself up and feels condemned because it's just not happening. He starts to feel rebellious, and eventually wonders if he has the Love of God in him at all. Each week he reluctantly shows up to the men's meeting and makes small talk while glancing at his watch and wishing he was somewhere else. All the while, his leader keeps complaining to the group because he doesn't see the men connecting and talking as deeply as he thinks they should. (This is the story of almost every men's meeting in America) Perhaps the most disturbing thing I've seen in institutional settings is when people do find authentic connection with certain individuals in their Church and it is excused and labeled as a "click." People are made to feel like they are doing something wrong when these real connections happen and many times the leadership does whatever they can to dissolve any "Christian clicks" that have formed in their congregation. How sad.

I honestly think we try to "build the Church" because when push comes to shove; we really don't believe there is a Jesus Christ at all. We can't see Him with our eyes and we can't hear Him with our


ears, so it makes it pretty difficult to just sit back and let Him build the Church. We jump in and do it

because we don't believe in Him. Think about it. I am also convinced that this is why we start

"Discipleship Groups" in our Churches. We honestly don't believe there is a Jesus. We feel that it's

our job to disciple young Christians instead of just turning them over to Christ. I thought He wanted us to make "Disciples of Christ"? Why then are we intent on making people our disciples? Where in the Bible does it say that WE are supposed to disciple people? We do this because we don't believe there IS a Jesus.

If I disciple Jim and Jim disciples Tony and Tony disciples Greg and Greg disciples Brian; who disciples

me? Who disciples the guy who disciples me?? Eventually won't it lead to Christ? Can't we just go

directly to Him or do we really need another mediator? (More on this subject at another time)

So where is the Church that Christ is building???

It's your "Inner Circle" of friends. He is the one who brought you together. Not only do you "fit" with these people but you "go together" with them. You fit together in the big picture!!! Your close friends ARE the Church that Christ built. If you look within your "Inner Circle" you will find diverse personalities. One has the personality of an Apostle, one is a Prophet, one is an Evangelist, one is a Pastor and one is a Teacher. Everyone I know has the 5 fold ministry built into their "Inner Circle" of friends!

We spend hours trying to pour our hearts into fitting pieces together that have nothing to do with the original blueprints. We focus our time and attention on building the synthetic church while we neglect the actual Church that He as already built into our lives. I hear people say to me that they need to "go to Church" because they need to find Christian people to connect with.

My advice to them is that they spend their time deepening the connections they already have in their life. I believe that everything we need exists within our "Inner Circle" of friends. All we need to do is press in even deeper to those people that God has built into our lives. Those are the relationships that came from Heaven. Those are the relationships we need to spend our time and focus on. Those relationships ARE the Church that Christ built!
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Christine's comment about Darin's post is valid. It's not either /or. Circle of friends/local church.
My comment would be however, Darin's post clearly addresses what was occurring in the original discipleship group...namely Jesus and the 12. It was organic church. And this foundation BECAME what we now know as the church. How the disciples originally felt about each other would be a good question in heaven , as Jesus gradually by the Spirit fingered each. The "flow was happening around Jesus, how long a "flow" developed between them as individuals we are not told.
Confusion
Remember, the dichotomy between circle of friends/present day church exists because of the confusion caused by our churches....not Darin's article.
Our present day churches - even good 2ndlevel ones - do not have Christ as their foundation, though some get pretty close.
Thirdlevel churches have the distinctive of understanding the Genesis 3 problem of the independent self and are run* by people who know within them "they have died with Christ and now live by the faith of the Son of God." Run * is a Key of David word, meaning not the current form of run _ which means "lead","make things happen", "pull strings", but instead it means "give the rhema current Word" and leave the meeting to fly. To find the Spirit key or keys, which opens some more "Ancient Doors" and the King Himself comes in...and He doesn't need "running" thank you very much.

Rediscovering the Prayer of You - Darin Hufford and comments to Jack Fortenberry on the 3rd protagonist

There are 3 protaganists in your Christian story and your church's story. It's not quite the simple 2 protagonist tale you bargained for. This is more than born out in Darin Hufford's experiences on prayer below, first posted on the Free Believer's Website.

But first this is part of the email I sent to Jack Fortenberry on Facebook 10 June at 11:45 as a direct result of Darin's article.

This may or may not have impacted you fully already. It came out of the Time Appointed by Roy Dungar...a man with engineering for a brain...I think not unlike yourself...you guys are very interesting once you've got light...because you have this clinical precision which doesn't let people get away with fuzziness. As I put on my status this morning, Roy gives a rundown on Song of Solomon as NOT 2 protagonists but 3!!!! The third wants to seduce us away from the One True thing...this life expressed by a hind skipping upon the mountaintops, and also by "the Bride coming out of the Wilderness leaning on her beloved".

So this is what I haven't put on my blog yet.Came out of this when I was reading Darin Hufford's great post on prayer. It's this!

Song of Songs and the parable of the Field that was sown, then resown by "an Enemy" at night show us these things:
1God knew the church would be a mess through history
2 He "meant" the church to be a mess...why?....
3 Because His way of producing mature lovers in the Spirit is to "allow " us to be seduced (if possible) by this 3rd religious agent in the Song of Songs, this Galations "bewitching" force, this Great Harlot of Revelation, or Abraham's big mistake...Ishmael...the child of the bondservant had to be cast out
4 This "experience" makes us mature,razor sharp,in terms of what is truly our Beloved and what is fake
5. It accounts for the Arc sweep of Church history. The Church born out of Judaism still had enough Judaism in her that she must be left to die, until a pure strand originating through Luther, be raised up brighter and brighter until at last a pure Bride appear raised uniquely in the Revelation of Jesus Christ and Him alone, to cast out the bondwoman completely.

Rediscovering the Prayer of You - Darin Hufford
When I first became a Christian I fell head over heels in love with God. I would spend hours talking to Him and praising Him. The lines of communication between He and I were always wide open. The word, "Amen" didn't mean, "Over and out," it meant "So be it." There was never a point when I wasn't listening for Him or speaking to Him. It was perhaps the most wonderful and simple relationship I had ever experienced in my life. It was pure, unscripted, from the heart and completely raw.



Then one day I was in a local bookstore and I found a book on prayer that I had heard a lot about from friends. As I was standing at the counter purchasing it, I remember hearing Him try to stop me within my heart. For some reason, I closed myself off to Him and got the book anyway - rationalizing that if it's on prayer, how could it hurt. That day marked the ending of my pure and unpolluted relationship with the Father. All that I had was taken from me within the first chapter of this famous and well respected book. Everything that came so naturally and without force was literally blown away like dust in the wind. For the next ten years I would do nothing but fight to find my way back to the place of my youth where my connection with Him was so wholesome and untainted. There were times in that darkness where I wondered if what I remembered having with the Father wasn't just a figment of my imagination. I wondered it if really happened like I had remembered it or if perhaps I had dreamed it long ago.

I truly felt like I had been violated by the author of this particular book. It was as though he molested my spirit. He stole my innocence and purity and replaced it with heartlessness and death. It would be almost fifteen years before I would find relief from that religious oppression that hovered over my head. Today I guard my relationship with the Father with everything that I have. Its power has proven to be beyond my imagination and yet it amazingly remains as delicate and fragile as a flower.

I believe that the concept of prayer that is taught in today's Christianity is not prayer at all. In fact, I believe that it has become something so sinister and self serving that it borders all out blasphemy. I wonder sometimes if people in this generation ever stop to really listen to themselves when they talk to God. Do they hear how deceptive and manipulative they've become over the years or are they spiritually oblivious to it? I wonder if people actually hear the barefaced manipulation that is woven throughout those scripted formulas they've been taught to recite to the Father to get what they want.

Molested Mindsets

It has been said that when a person is molested as a child, they are twice as likely to become a molester themselves when they grow up. There is a mentality of molestation that many people take on and live their lives by from the moment someone abuses them in that way. I personally believe that this generation has been spiritually molested by religions heartless desire for control. Just as the step by step teachings on prayer that I read, took my innocence away and left me empty and hallow; I believe that thousands of Christians have been emotionally stripped in very much the same way. We've been violated by an unfeeling and heartless set of rules and religious methods that are not only void of real intimacy with the Father, but are designed to drain away and bleed out any future possibility of intimacy. This is exactly what takes place in the heart of someone who has been molested.

Molestation is when someone penetrates another person for their own personal gratification and with no intent for relationship. It's physical penetration without relational penetration. It's a mindset that TAKES for one's self, without the intent of giving. Many people who have been molested as children grow up and become adults with a "Molested mindset." They're repulsed by the idea of relationship and intimacy with anyone. They often use people to receive whatever personal gratification they want at the time. Ironically, this is the same mentality that the person who violated them years ago, lives by.
Darin's 90s band
So what does this have to do with prayer?


This same mindset has followed us into our prayer lives. In short, we have become "God molesters." We find ways to penetrate the throne room of God so we can get what we want, but we have absolutely no desire for personal relationship with Him. We find ways to physically penetrate the Throne of God, without actually relationally penetrating Him. Our main focus today is how to make it work, or how to get the answers we want. Intimacy has little or nothing to do with it. In this generation we care very little about anything other than results. Almost all of the popular teachings I've heard on how to pray are centered on getting God to give up the goods. We're taught how to approach him, how to manipulate Him, how to seduce Him and how to convince Him to give us what we want. We've even been taught to obligate Him and make Him feel like He doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's amazing how similar our tactics are to the planned patterns of a child molester.

Something is deeply wrong with this generation when we are actually studying, "What God has to do for us" because of some technicality in Scripture. When we start taking things that bloom from real relationship and using them as tools to manipulate God, we are a generation of God molesters. A child molester will do and say anything he has too, to get a child to believe in him. He will take the very things that bloom from real relationship and mimic them in an effort to seduce the child into letting him have his way. He'll say he loves the child, or he'll never leave the child. He makes the child feel secure and safe with him. All these things are counterfeits that come from the fruit of real intimacy but are acted out to get the child to drop his defenses. A molester will use anything to get what he wants, and we have become no different today.

My heart grieves when I hear people using things that spring from intimacy as tools to get what they want. We've been taught to use the Name of Jesus to make things happen on our behalf. His Name has become nothing but a spiritual bobby pin to pick a lock in the invisible realm or a clove of garlic to ward off all the vampires. We reduce the things that transpire through the fruit of closeness and relationship to a pair of bat wings in a witches brew.Picture :Darin Hufford now

Beautiful things like faith are captured and cultivated for no other purpose than to get a desired set of results. We've become a generation of lawyers who are experts in using God's words against Him. In the end, we seem to have convinced ourselves that the end justifies the means. If the outcome if favorable and positive on our behalf, it was a success.

So we approach God with something we want, and we go through our spiritual tool belt and follow the formula to a "t". We use the Name of Jesus, we use faith, we claim it, we stand on His words, we anoint it with oil and rebuke the Devil. Suddenly IT WORKS. We got the job, we got the car, the promotion came through, we got the raise; IT WORKED!!! But we are no closer to the Heart of God than we were the day before. Closeness was NOT the aim. In the end, we just found ways to penetrate the throne of God to get what we wanted, but we had no intentions of having relationship. It was physical penetration without relational penetration.

No longer do two or three gather in His name for the purpose of relationship with one another. We do it to fulfill a quota that will then obligate Him to respond in our favor. Even our worship is laced and poisoned with manipulation. It seems that today, almost everything we do has an underlined reason behind it that has nothing to do with intimacy with the Father. Even things such as abstaining from sin, can be traced back to some form of spiritual manipulation to get Him to give us something. Make no mistake about it; this is a "God Molesting Mentality!" He feels it the same way a child feels it when they are betrayed by someone they love. It's heartbreaking to Him.

I remember reading in the Bible about a time when Jesus pulled up into a town on a boat and everyone came running to Him begging Him to just touch the edge of his garment. It said that "all who touched it were healed." I refer to this verse as the day Jesus was gang raped. Can you imagine how He must have felt that day? Not a single person was there for relationship. No one wanted Jesus for Jesus. It was the garment they were fascinated with. In fact, when they killed Him they even cast lots to see who got to take it home. Relationship was the last thing on their mind. When I see this spirit in today's Church it grieves my very soul. Prayer in today's generation is nothing but an excuse to rape and pillage heaven.

When I speak my wife's name, it has meaning. It vibrates my soul and resonates within my heart. The very sound of her name causes a mist of her presence to surround me. I can literally catch the sent of her breath and feel her hair in my hands when I speak her name. Before I knew her, "Angie" was just another name. It meant nothing to me. After I became one with her, her name began to take on an entirely different meaning. Today it explodes with the essence of Angie when it comes from my lips. The power of her name comes through my intimate knowledge of her as a person. It is not the name, in and of itself that is powerful to me; it's the relationship behind the name that makes it live in my spirit. The same is true with the Name of Jesus. I think it's pretty pathetic when the Name of Jesus means more to demon spirits than it does to us.

It would be wrong for you to read this article and come away with the notion that the name of Angie has power in it when YOU speak it just because you read about it here. Until you have experienced her heart; her name is none of your business! In the same way, when you have experienced the Heart of God in relationship and intimacy, His Son's spirit will vibrate within you. It's what the Bible refers to in Romans as "The Spirit of Sonship that cries Abba Father." That Spirit is NOT a tool or a technicality; it's a position of closeness and intimacy.

I feel that prayer has gone from a conversation in the midst of relationship to a formula that has been concocted for the purpose of manipulation. Perhaps the most well known teaching on prayer today is called, "The prayer of Jabez." Millions of Christians are encouraged to recite this simple prayer that a man prayed over three thousand years ago, with the promise that "It will work."

This reminds me of a bill board that I once saw in Florida while driving down the freeway. It said, "Prayer Works." I have found this to be the very bottom of the barrel concern of every modern day Christian. Does it work? How can we make it work? My question is this: Is prayer something that was intended to "work" or was it intended for another purpose? When I kiss my wife a m I concerned with whether or not "it works" or am I doing it because my love for her has culminated to a point where I need physical confirmation? To say that "Prayer works" is to suggest that the only reason for prayer is to get something personally from it that we didn't already have. It has nothing to do with relationship or intimacy. It's purely selfish.

I know that this article sounds almost belligerent at some points and perhaps downright confrontational at others, but I sincerely want this generation of Christians to know the Father personally. If you don't know Him; all is lost. What's the point? He created you and me for relationship. That's the first thing on His heart when he thinks of you. Everything else is secondary. The purpose of this article is not to condemn you or make you feel bad. I want to encourage you to seek Him on a different level than what you have been taught. Find Him in your own way. Don't worry about how to pray or what to say and in what order. Just talk with Him because you want to get to know Him.

Believe it or not; God does NOT want you to pray the prayer of Jabez! God wants you to pray THE PRAYER OF YOU.