Chris Welch on Facebook...........Gracebook....I'dlike to share about a ministry to give you an example of how Word works. He was big in the 70s. Maurice Smith.
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Judy Povey bring it on :o)
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch There was Bryn Jones,Gerald Coates,,Arthur Wallis ,Dave Mansell,John Noble,George Tarleton,Terry Virgo, John McLaughlin and many many more taking the renewal out of tonguetalkin denominational sectarianism into a "word hearing cloud followin'" People.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Nearly all of them would have used the word apostle to describe themselves, and some like Terry still would.....but I want to tell you a Cinderella Kingdom fact.PROBABLY Only ONE WAS....and he to this day probably doesn't know....because most saw him as a prophet. Maurice Smith.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Judy Povey That's interesting. I don't remember the name Maurice Smith although of course I remember most of the other names. I was part of a harvesttime fellowship (Bryn Jones) in Ipswich for a few years. The "shepherding" style of leadership eventually drove most of us out and we re-grouped independently. Now that same fellowship is in the New Frontiers family.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch It may be all the others were "apostles" of what Ern Baxter referred to (speaking of David in Thy Kingdom Come) as a ZIKLAG job.....God's initial purpose of positioning people. But who remembers a solitary word of what Gerald and John Noble and George Tarleton were saying 40 years on? Yet first in a book called 5.5.55 ,then in "Amazing Grace" some 40 years before Steve McVey, Paul Anderson Walsh, and Darin Hufford are all the TRULY important apostolic foundations of a REAL Christian life.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Maurice is virtually unknown now too.....but his foundation is the only living vibrant one of all of them here on the net. The others knew how to get you saved and filled with the Spirit.So did Christine and I when we were 13, but we never ...called ourselves apostles....or anything else really. No....I think we've all lived under a 40 year illusion that because you're a Type A personality with an organisational ability to hire a school hall and a worship group,and preach a reformed "Baptist" type "You are not measuring up to this New Testament Law" Word, this is truly an apostle. Baloney!See more
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The Word of the grace of Christ layered into a believer's insides,imparting to them faith and hope is what an apostle is. In 1981 Maurice twigged finally what Norman Grubb was going on about, and saw the fulness of "Christ in Maurice as Maurice".Others saw a weak man crippled by paralysing fears and gutwrenching nerves....Maurice now understood himself as "God's grace made perfect in weakness" "a vessel container of God's glory."
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Hasn't it been an interesting road here in the UK and the States Judy? Both the Fort Lauderdale crew who were a big feature for us in Amersham....Don Basham lit the fuse in 67 or 8, and the Pioneer,New Frontiers,Harvesttime crews were ident...ical in bringing Word,bringing the start of Church order.....but not being properly 3rd level,in the longterm built nothing more than "human franchises" from which devastations Spirit people are crawling from Terminator film-style all over our 2 countries. May God bless the net,so long as we have freedom to share.See more
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Reading thru this did you understand "the only living vibrant" foundation was the one Maurice brought as opposed to the other 70s names.....I didn't mean as opposed to Steve McVey or others now on the net. Wanted to avoid confusion and pain here.
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Judy Povey It has been an interesting road Chris. How I loved listening to Ern Baxter - he came to the Anglia Bible Week in 1983. And first of all we called our groups house churches which they soon weren't because we moved into community halls and ...we soon got stuck in legalism again. But we're all groping for the truth and I've struggled with the paradoxical (?)/conflicting Biblical themes and narratives and finally come home to trusting in JESUS. Is that what Maurice meant by "the only living vibrant" foundation? Is there anything on the web about Maurice Smith?See more
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Interesting Chris. True apostles never draw attention to themselves but to Christ. They are the pioneers of the faith because they lead the way, they plant new things overturn the status quo. Those guys probably did have apostolic anointing... but were also responsible for error in the church (the heavy shepherding movement) because they saw themselves as apostles overseeing what God had not given them any authority for. Unfortunately the charismatics have still not got over the control that introduced. In the Brethren movement the same thing happened, anointed men of God rose up and paved the way for the people of God but then became institutionalised and people looked to them rather than God.See more
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Not that I've seen....in fact if you google you might end up in the excerpts I've been putting up,I think firstly on Dan Bowens Baxter blog and mine too.
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_New_Church_Movement
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Exactly how long do you think itis Paul that we get away from believing the work of God is something like believing on His spoken Word something like Mary in Nazareth....to the point where we chase round building "things'....as if we can bu...ild the Kingdom in Lego or something.We can't even put together a human in a womb....in flesh and blood terms....how do we end up with the notion that we can "put Christ together on earth ". Is this an advanced Lego kit that only the Brethren and charismatics know about? Have I been reading my Bible wrong all this time ?
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble I was thinking - the metaphor the Bible uses is living stones - Lego is definately not in my Bible LoL. Those stones are all different sizes and colours and shapes & also change when your not looking! It is only when they come to Christ they fit into this glorious temple that God is building!
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Abundant Grace Church Always great to hear such people
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch I'm really young in understanding how "builder-types" work. It is alien to me as a musician/philosopher type. I noticed the ease with which the St Matthew-types, or St Peter types , or Rory and Wendy types, or Stan Warren of Emsworth..or Andy Elmes guys have built a framework before breakfast.They are made that way in God.cont..
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Outside of God though,they seem to build things and call them God. As I was saying,I naively went along with everyone's notions that they were apostolic.....but now I see them as builder types,but it isn't the same thing at all as Fred Prui.tt or others who are actually laying the Word of "Christ as you" in folk. This level has NOTHING to do with buildings...or even meetings,directly....this is to do with impacting people's life for the WHOLE of the rest of their lives....DIVINE encounters. Like when Jessie Penn Lewis was a few hours with Norman Grubb....and he was still reeling with what hit him at his "seeing level" at age 97. It makes the toytown stuff in our locality pretty cheap!!!See more
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Interesting again Chris - I think you will find that the musician/artist/philosopher types are often prophetically gifted (I am partly of that bent). HOWEVER I believe both giftings (Apostolic & prophetic) need more than their natural equiv...alent Eg in the secular you get these sort of giftings in the art & business world. I do wonder sometimes whether people are operating more in a natural gifting rather than a spiritual one and that is why we end up with yet another structure or music that is just a copy of what the world is doing with christian words.
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first appeared here in Chris's Preblog on Dan Bowen's ErnBaxter blog Comments section
Yesterday when I got up my eyes caught a book I have not noticed for over 20years...by Maurice Smith
called
20th Century Pilgrim ISBN 0 947599 03 7 publishers VINE. here is Chapter 1. If you like it I could do chapter 2 which is on Maurice discovering he is dead (in a Romans kind of way).
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Go on, go on, go on, go on,
Go on, go on, go on;
Go on, go on, go on, go on,
Go on. go on, go onl
I first heard those words 'go on. go on' from Henry Holloway some twenty-five years ago. The de-nomination without a name that we were in, had no set rules and regulations, or fixed doctrines and dogmas; but we had a great deal of unwritten liturgy. For instance, we used no Christian names,well hardly any. Everyone was Brother this and Brother that. Brother Holloway was around eighty years old I guess, so of course he naturally became','Old Brother Holloway'. I don't think anyone has influenced me more. He was a university graduate, in his youth - a rarity in those days - and spoke 'with a highly cultured diction, which disguised an
almost constant chuckle. He was diminutive of stature, neatly dressed with a watch-chain resplendant across his striped waistcoat. There was a permanent twinkle in his eyes. Time and again he would sidle up to me and whisper a word of wisdom in my ear. This particular 'go on' word has been with me ever since the day he looked me straight in the eye and delivered it with all the seriousness of a Shakespearian actor.
Now two and a half decades later, on a sweltering hot Sunday afternoon, the first of August. 1982 I am pursuing those same words 'Go on, go on as they’re emblazoned on-.the back of a young man's T-shirt in the Dartford half-marathon. I'm now a veteran runner and strenuously trying to maintain form to keep up with the wearer, but I do so enjoy seeing young men, and women on full stretch for the tape. Little does the T-shirt wearer know that his disappearing vest is speaking volumes to me in another dimension; the dimension that O.B.H. had opened up to me time and time again. He finished his course, we're still running on.I seem destined to be influenced by old men. At about the same time as I was listening to the thoughts of Brother Holloway, I used to sit at conferences and watch the face of an old gentleman who I would estimate was well into his seventies. This an's name was Oliphant - Brother Oliphant of course. Watchman Nee once called this old warrior The Womb of theWest, and across the lines of his face were he signs of suffering and I knew just a few of the details and the cost involved. Looking at him across the conference hall I grew to respect that lined face and silently asked God to give me some of the peace tranquility I could see written there. Somehow,those dissimilar twins of gaiety and suffering, so admirably portrayed in two of the Lord's old gentlemen, have set a course for me through the middle part of my life. They hadn't stopped going on. They
were satisfied but not satiated. My mind was made up; I'm in the race of joy and suffering for a lifetime. I didn't know it then, but I was beginning to accept the need for darkness as well as light, to make room for pain and sorrow; to receive the negative side of God and his creation as well as-the positive. Perhaps then I saw all the unpleasantness as mere back-drop to the good God wanted to do in the world, whereas the years have begun to teach me how essential suffering is to produce character and to enable us to finally reign with him ...but I begin to run away with myself. Much of the time, this was a light-hearted period of life. Jesus
and me, in good fellowship, and my acceptability as a preacher falsely giving me the impression that
I was making really good headway in this Christian business. Looking back I can see there was a lot of self-
effort in my believing, but no doubt it's all been necessary. So often we have to labour to enter into our rest. Then I felt I knew so much of God's eternal plan end purpose. Although I vehemently declared there was no set pattern for church structure and order in the New Testament, I had secretly come to believe that we were nearer the ideal than most. I'd swallowed volumes of Watchman Nee and T. Austin-Sparks and spent hours under the expert tuition of Robert Warke from Ireland. I felt ready to set in order much that was awry in the church scene. Oh my, what the intervening years have contributed towards the maturity I saw in those aged saints. It’s been painful and it’s been fun; like everything else I’ve encountered with God, ther’s a paradox to grasp and live with.
I suppose we all start with a vision. For me, overriding everything else in my life were the the words of Jesus’ prayer in John 17 “that they may all be one…that the world may believe that you have sent me”.
There seemed so few in those early days that were concerned for a togetherness. Plenty were ready to go for an old style evangelism, but the results were unimpressive, except in the case of a few very talented individuals. It was the corporate nature of our life gripped me. Somehow it wasn't just that I had etemal life now that I had believed in Christ, but more importantly that we shared it together. We really were members of one another and were meant to be together, get on together,and be such a visible provocation to the world that they'd want to know what we had got. This all seemed a million miles away from the experience
going on around me, where all I could see-was .break-up and division, back-biting and hurts, and people so full of insecurity that they didn't seem any better off than folk who had not experienced the great transaction of salvation through knowing Jesus Christ. In fact, to be honest, very often they seemed worse off. I remember doing a very simplistic survey once, when I observed over a period, and recorded, that the Christians in my street looked, on average, more miserable than their non-Christian counter-parts. There just had to be an
answer to such a sorry condition, "where the recipients seemed to have an initial experience of joy ; and first love, and then gradually sink back into a knowledge of their position, without the attendant radiance that was there at the beginning. Actually as l say, I didn't fully identify with this morbid Christian scene for several years because I was able to hide behind my preaching and natural charisma,but the crunch came when I finally felt dry. wearied of marking time. and began to search for more light and truth . The vision of the Church continually gripped me; "That they might be one' pounded in my ears day and night. Here was I with the Normal Christian Life and Concerning Our Missions To be called the Normal Christian Church Life
off pat; but I couldn't make it work. I was learning that revelation was not enough, and that the Father's way is to allow suffering to come across our path. In order to guide us into the realising of what we have seen.' He wanted what we had taken hold of to take hold of us, so that there was no strain in our living.How could I get all these Christians to be a happy band of pilgrims? How could we live the joyous overcoming life I saw portrayed as normal in so many New Testament Christians and others since them down the centuries? How could we in our generation produce men and women of the calibre of those I so admired? The visible church to my century was a laughing stock, the ready prepared material for the comedians and cartoonists. I could
no longer hide my grief and despair that. for all the ardent preaching of the vociferous minority, we were having next to no impact.
The arrival of the world-wlde charismatic movement and the consequent opening up to the Holy Spirit made a difference. But in my own experience, after the initial course of joy and the use of several spiritual gifts, I still found that life was far short of all I knew it could be. I thought the baptism in the Holy Spirit, as so many called the . experience, was going to settle everything, but far from it In fact. it seems that for me, that experience marked the commencement of a long period of severe dealings. Maybe as John the Baptist warned we were to be baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire .Everyone I listened to conveniently forgot
the fire. They never promised me that . I usually tell folk that ever since the days of my deeper knowing
of the Hdy Spirit, life has been quite dreadfel. Sorry if that doesn't/fit the recognised charismatic theology. but it's the truth. Like Jacob, I've experienced 'the gate of heaven' and 'a dreadful place' both at the same time. There has been a new sense of the presence of the Lord; a new joy, plus depths of darkness and despair that I never dreamed existed.
Certainly had I known the path ahead I would never have joined, but for me the Christian life seems best summed up in the title of Norman Grubb's book, 'Once Caught. No Escape!' Most of us are in for keeps.
The original slide-away from the joyous consciousness of his life within me and into the subtle dependence upon laws and methods and arbitrary standards of performance, had been instigated almost from the moment of my conversion. On that magic day in 1955, I had given my life to Christ; lock. stock and barrel, as best I knew how. I awoke the next day with the assurance of my reconciliation to God and a feeling of peace."
Everything seemed okay. There was now no desire for the thirty cigarettes a day which were my previous assurance of some semblance of calm amidst the storms of earning a living and bringing up a young family. As soon as work on the first day was over I shot down to the rectory to tell my good news to the rector. Dr. G. C. B. Davies, who had been instrumental in my final capitulation to God and I wanted him to share the enjoyment. He was, I was informed, at the village hall to officiate at a function, so I ran all the way there and burst in with my proclamation. Collis was delighted and confided that the Lord had told him that one person
would be converted under his ministry in the Cotswold village of Kingham where we all lived at the time. He moved on to pursue a more academic calling and was soon a lecturer at a University and eventually became Canon of Worcester Cathedral.
But I digress. I asked where a close friend was, for I wanted her to join the party. I had a river of living water
gushing up inside of me and I wanted everyone to drink. Soon I found her, and with the strains of the amateur musicians in the background I shared with her my testimony. She was absolutely overjoyed and we laughed together in quite a natural manner. I followed on the conversation by saying. as the river of life continued to rise in me:
'Can I have this dance please?'
It was a kind of celebration act to me. I can't remember now whether she accepted or not, because I was so stunned by her reply. She leaned forward and whispered to me, 'Christians don't dance, Maurice!'
0h dear,' was my word in response. It was a strangely disappointing interchange and I was temporarily confused. However, I soon recovered and sallied forth into my new found Christian experience with great enthusiasm, but almost imperceptibly the first chain of bondage had gone round my leg. A law had been applied. It was not the inward working of God writing in my heart, but the external application of a mode of behaviour that was to gradually stifle the thrilling experience , of walkjng with the presence of God's spirit within me. I had taken a step away from grace, which meant God doing something for me and I had moved into an area of law, which meant me doing something for God. And this had happened within
twenty-four hours of my conversion!
I can now see that like many Israelites of old, I was born a free true child of God, but born in a land of captivity. There were folk on every hand to tell me what I I had to do to become a good Christian. Soon I had more and more rules to observe. One well-meaning ; soul upon hearing of my conversion, asked me if I
was having a Q.T.
'What's that?' I enquired, by now perplexed; I' ve ' never heard of it.'Then followed the serious explanation of a regular Quiet Time. A period of study and meditation held early in the morning without which no serious
Christian could possibly exist. A necessary discipline I was told. No one told me to treasure the spirit within, but how to polish up the externals.
Before long I heard,'You realise Billy Graham reads five Psalms and three Proverbs every day -should you do less?' Oh dearl A sense of heaviness is coming over me,the honeymoon is passing, It's time to get down to
the nitty-gritty chores of married life with God. I think I'm losing my first love. I've failed to keep the 'ten commandments of the Old Testament and they had led me to Christ as the only hope. Now I've got to get down to the business of keeping the one hundred and ten commandments of the New Testament. Then I couldn't commit adultery, now I mustn't even have an appreciative glance according to some. Murder was out under Moses but now I mustn't hate anyone. Of course it wasn’t long before I was disliking people intensely
but loving them in the Lord', whatever that sickly phrase means, This 'love' didn't seem to be having
much effect on them that's for sure. Well, here's a fine dilemma; in thesame breath, senior Christians
telling me to trust, and not try, and here's what you must do. One classic contradiction of advice came when I was seeking guidances over a particular matter. Within hours of each other two well- meaning advisors stated...
'When in doubt, do "nowt"' and 'When in doubt, strike out!'
I realised that I was going to have to find some easier way than this; but I didn't. I opted for getting down to it. Searching the scriptures daily, for I felt in them I had eternal life.12 Praying long and hard,trying to keep my mind from wandering. Taking communion as often as possible and getting into condemnation every time my mind wandered on to the Arsenal Football Club instead of the Lord's great sacrifice for me. I so wanted to be a good Christian I so wanted to please God, that I gradually took from OB this new life-style; this do-it-yourself Christianity, this self-improvement plan! And, compared with many others, I became good at it. In public I was a most impressive pray-er and was often asked to lead in prayer at public gatherings. I could pray in spiritual jargon for the best part of twenty minutes,telling God things he knew before the foundation el
the world, but I couldn't call him Dad- (Abba)" and get an answer.
Something was wrong somewhere. This fight against sin, this strained endeavour to be a successful Christian. The great burden that dropped off me at conversion seemed to have crept back on again; but I had to keep up the front I was telling people that I was the one with the real joy and they, the non-christians, were the ones who were unhappy. I did wish some of them wouldn't be so nice though.That first-love excitement had soon worn off; mind you I still had the inner assurance of salvation and that wasn't to be sneezed at. I
knew where I was going, even if the present was not too enjoyable. That eternal life seemed to have slid into the future tense somehow, and I wanted to share some of its thrill and excitement along with all the others in my new-found family. That corporate quality of life was supposed to make such an impact upon secular society; they were supposed to be asking what was the secret behind this great spontaneous expression of carefree living. 'Pie in the sky when we die' Christianity was not such a Crowd-puller. We seemed to be answering questions that nobody was asking, and that's rude. I suppose for me the prime example of this was one day set forth in the delightful Cornish seaside resort of Port Isaac. I was the guest speaker at Stan and Marjorie Bates' Christian guest house, and after dinner one Tuesday evening I strolled down to the harbour for a breath of sea air and to take in the local atmosphere. T
The town band was playing on the harbour front and,. After I had listened for a while they struck up the Floral Dance and headed up the steep hill towards the guest house. Hundreds of holidaymakers formed up behind and began the traditional one-two-three hop. Well. you can't keep me out of that sort of thing (but I do hasten to add (that incident occurred after my baptism in the Holy Spirit because before then I would have felt such enjoyment to be rather worldly. Probably the effect of the no- dance routine I had got into). As we passed the guest house I peeled off and danced up the pathway and into the lounge where I was due to give my spiritual talk for the evening. One ultra-respectable lady looked across the room and commented in a frosty manner,
'Here comes our carnal brother' I looked around for support.'That's nothing,' said Stan, coming to my aid, ;
'we had someone so irate in here one night, because the band was holding up our Bible study, that she rushed out to witness to them. After a few moments she returned triumphant,' "Did you manage to speak to them about the Lord?" I enquired,' said Stan. "There was too much noise," she replied,
"but I did manage to poke a tract down someone's trombone"'
What are we coming to? Was this the life that sprang from a relationship with God? Were these sincere but unhappy people to be my companions on this long pilgrimage? I did hope not; it seemed to be getting more and more restricted along the way. and many of these fellow travelers had evidently settled for restriction; but something' inside me just wouldn't settle; as O.B.H. had said, I had to 'go on'.
