Barbara Rogerson finds her new identity and experiences new anointing

I'd like to share more from Barbara Rogerson's life story.The previous chapter describing the pioneering house churches in the 70s is here.

Real stories are always best. The problem with "charismatic stories" is that while the spiritual experiences are usually real enough, the very real context....in fact I would say the whole reason we live our lives in this kind of universe...is simply glossed over.

I see this even more since Rich Novek's posts last month.
Barbara's whole story to date can be found in 23 chapters here. Simply go to her archives on the right and click on My Story and you will get all 23 chapters in reverse order.___________________

MY STORY Chapter 14 by Barbara Rogerson - From Darkness to LightDuring the time timescale of the last chapter there were a couple of significant times of enlightenment that began to make a difference in my life. The first came in 1982 at a time when I felt so inadequate and depressed. I was looking out of my bedroom window when I saw a lady from my church walking down the street looking so happy and ‘together’ and striding out with great confidence. It had an immediate affect on me, why could I not be like that? I now know that I was only seeing at the appearance level, but at that point I just sank to my knees and cried out to God. I suddenly realised that my dialogue with God was coming out as a poem. The poem has since been a help to me and many others and was later published as an “editor’s choice” in a book of poems called “Praised Voices”.

THE MIND OF GOD

O my God, why do you leave me in despair and desolation?
When all around is seemingly glory and triumph
The very essence of life appears and disappears
As though they were just puppets, on a string
You mock me, You tantalise me, You hide your face.
Is it a game that you are playing?

Child, you have forgotten your prayers of yesteryear
What, me give up the things I hold so dear?
Lord, you know I want to change
But, how can You and I achieve the impossible?
It only seemed impossible to you
Because you did not have My infinite mind.

Remember the prayers that went unanswered at the time
The prayers you prayed that were impossible for me
For had I answered in the way that you had wished
Those other prayers of yours, the most important ones
Would have vanished like a vapour in the sea
And never would have brought you the life you long to see.

My love for you is more than just a fleeting feeling
To lose you would have been too great a price to pay
Your suffering has been your greatest treasure
To keep you close to me so come what may
THE MIND OF GOD WILL BE INSTILLED WITHIN YOU
So that you can live the life for which you pray.

Barbara Rogerson 1982

I continued to seek God and for a long time spent many night hours unable to sleep. I was getting more desperate and as written in the closing lines of the last chapter, I came to the point where I felt that nothing was working, God didn’t seem to care and it was too hard to go on living like this another day. I told God in the middle of the night that I was finished, I was giving up. Whereas to me it felt like the end, it was really the beginning of some new enlightenment on my journey. I clearly heard God say, “That’s all I have ever wanted of you, for you to give up your self effort and striving and allow me to be your life” He told me I was dead and it was only His life in me that would make a difference. I ran upstairs, woke Alan and said “I am dead, God’s told me I am dead!” Alan’s reaction in his sleepy state was to say “Oh! Yeah” and turned over and went back to sleep. I was excited for the first time in months and knew that something significant was happening, even though at that time I did not understand the living out of this revelation. I said to God, “I will not do another thing until I know that it is You doing it”.

On a practical level all I knew to do was give up all my activities and I stopped going to meetings and just waited on God. Initially I stayed in bed for two days as I did not know how else to stop, or what to do next. It looked like a breakdown but it was God’s way of getting me quiet. One enlightened preacher came to visit me and prophesied that as I came to the end of myself God would use my experiences to help others. This meant nothing to me at the time.

Our fellowship had grown quite large by now and we had been involved and deeply committed for 10 years. However this was also the time when there were many splits and breakaways in the house church movement worldwide and ours was no exception. We were pioneering, it was a time of learning and mistakes were made, particularly in the area of shepherding. I need to say that our then leader has since publicly acknowledged the mistakes while also recognising the good and positive that came out of this time. I know that God uses everything and nothing in our experience is ever wasted. All is a growing process. We felt that we needed to break away and see what God was saying to us personally.

We were for some time alone and without ‘formal’ fellowship but this was the time when God started to make Himself real to us in a new way and also the time when I started to really listen. A very simple lesson came one day when sitting reading in the garden. I was reading the book “Rees Howells – Intercessor” and began to think that I could never do what Rees Howells had done and the old condemnation soon reared it’s head. God clearly said, “I’m not asking you to do that at this moment, you only need to do what I ask you to do.”

One day we planned a visit to a preacher/friend of ours who lived about 2 hours drive away. On the day all my old fears came back as I started to think about the journey and we left late as I had spent so much time in the bathroom due to anxiety. We eventually made it to our friends house only to find he was in a similar situation being a very anxious and nervous individual himself. When we both shared how we were feeling and why he insisted that it was all an attack of Satan. I did not enjoy my day and when we arrived home late at night I fell into bed feeling as defeated as ever.

The next morning I was standing at my kitchen sink thinking that if Satan had such power to paralyze me and wreck my day, what chance did I have of fighting this. I would always lose. Suddenly the light came on and God said, “You are not meant to fight, you are meant to believe” He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world, 1 John 4:4. Here were Scriptures I had read all my life being made real. Yes, all I was meant to do was believe the truth. The truth that the only power that the enemy had over me was the power that I gave to him through my wrong believing. For me it was a revelation. I then began to see that I was not a depressed person, that I had the Creator of the universe living in me. I might feel depressed but that was not my identity. My identity was Christ in this earthen vessel.

I asked God right there, “ OK, how does this relate to right now?” I was still feeling depressed. God’s answer was to tell me to just do the next thing which happened to be clearing the dishes. In asking again, it was to make the beds. I lived like this for the whole day, taking one step at a time and trusting the next moment to God. I chose to stop seeing myself as a depressed, inadequate and defeated person and started to trust God in a new way no matter how I felt or how it looked. He showed me how to take one step at a time, just doing the next thing. I’m sure it would seem very elemental to some, but for me, having struggled in my own strength for decades I learned a lot in those days. As I stopped the self effort struggling and just listened to God He continued to show me through the very mundane activities of life.

One day I heard of an acquaintance who was feeling very low and depressed and I felt to go and visit her. I arrived on her doorstep and felt dumb. All I managed to say was, “Hi! I hear you are feeling bad and I just wanted to tell you that I care.” On the way home after a cup of tea and a chat I felt frustrated when all the things I could have said to her came flooding into my mind and as I questioned God as to why He said “I only asked you to go, and you did, you can share that with her next time”. God was showing me the difference between relying on Him and self effort. I was wanting to run ahead of God and do His work for Him. He knows what is needed and unless we are listening to Him we don’t.

Very soon we had a small group of friends meeting in our home for fellowship and God started bringing various ministry teachers into my life who confirmed all that God was showing me. This was not overnight but over a couple of years. This brought increased healing as I began to believe Galations 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ, but it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me”.

We will see in future chapters the difference this made in my life. During this time there were some dramatic and distressing events in my extended family but they will have to wait until the next chapter.
____________________________


MY STORY by Barbara Rogerson - Chapter 22 - A Moving of the Spirit
During the 90’s there was a very strong influence on many people and churches across the world, namely the “Toronto Blessing”. We were not involved with this as God had us focused on the direction that He had given to us at that time.

It became so widespread, affecting churches and groups of all denominations, congregations, leaders, pastors and vicars alike, young and old, that I began to seek God as to whether we were missing out through not being involved. There were people that thought we were. The ‘blessing’ appeared to be an outer experience but those involved said that they were much more in touch with God and renewed in their spiritual walk and it had increased their hunger for God. I could not deny that God was doing something and He was certainly getting people’s attention and giving them a sign of His power. I had been very involved in the early days of the Charismatic renewal in the 60’s so it was not entirely new to me, but those days were on a much smaller scale as people did not travel like they do now. I did know that I did not have to be actively involved in this ‘blessing’ in order to experience the by-products as I believe that in God we live and move and have our very being. I know that trusting His life in me would bring me into all that God had and desired for me. I know that His life brings us into a day in, day out lived out life of constancy in the Holy Spirit where ‘blessing’ takes on a whole new meaning as Jesus Christ through us strives to see Himself formed in all of created beings. Do hear my heart, I am not in any way speaking out against the “Toronto Blessing” but sharing where I was on my journey at that time.

Moving on in to the new millennium, God proved yet again that we never miss out in this life of faith if we are trusting in Him for He has His times and seasons for everything in our lives.

During the summer of 2001 I was sitting at my computer one day when I received an E-mail from a total stranger who I will call Jenny. Without going into details of the E-mail I wasn’t really sure how it involved me. I replied saying, “Who are you, who do you fellowship with and how did you get my address?” Not friendly at all, in fact I was quite indignant. In that moment I heard God’s voice so clearly it caused me to take notice. I heard God say, “Keep an open mind or you might miss something.” I received a reply from Jenny stating that a ministry package was in the post. Believing that I had heard God speak I was intrigued enough to eagerly await the arrival of the package, but also to know how this person from Ohio had come by my address. I eventually found out that it had come about through Jenny’s contact with a Christian travel agent who knew a friend of mine from the States who had visited with me on a number of occasions. The problem was that my friend who is busy and travels a lot with her own ministry had forgotten to tell me.

It turned out that Jenny was a church pastor and evangelist and she had received a number of prophecies from different sources stating that she would be going to London to minister. The package duly arrived and after being touched and stirred in my spirit when listening to the tapes, I eagerly devoured the accompanying book and could not put it down, finishing it within 24 hours. The only time I have been glad to be stuck in a long traffic jam. I knew that if she was coming to London then I wanted to meet her. Having had nothing more than a word from God and a rising in her spirit, Jenny and her ministry helper, who I will call Joan, had booked on a tour to London where on arrival they were going to part from the tour group, visit some churches and see what God did in the situation. However, due to unforeseen circumstances the tour was cancelled. It was after this event that Jenny contacted the Christian travel agent. Plans had been made for them to stay in a hotel in London and she had made contact with me in the hope that I would go and meet with her giving her a contact in London. I agreed to do this and a date was fixed. This seemed quite easy and straight forward at the time but none of us knew the implications of 9/11.

Jenny and Joan were at the airport waiting for their American Airlines internal flight when the first plane flew into the twin towers in New York City. Needless to say everything was cancelled and nobody knew how long it would be before aircraft would be flying out of the States across the Atlantic again. The priority anyhow was to get stranded people home. As it happened, and obviously after much prayer, the travel agent finally found seats on a plane for about 10 days later. In view of the event money for the hotel stay had been refunded. At this point I suggested to Jenny and Joan that they forget about booking a hotel and come and stay at my house instead. They agreed in amazement as they had never stayed in the house of a stranger before.

I organised various meetings for them both in my home and at various churches that I had contact with. Our Pastor had by then listened to the tapes and the first meeting was in our own church. During ministry time I was prayed for and immediately fell to the floor. Jenny turned and said, “Look at your hands Barbara, they are covered in oil” When I eventually looked, not only was there oil but gold dust too. I had heard of people manifesting gold dust but never oil. It was not something that I had asked for or gone seeking after. I realised in a new way that we cannot put God in a box, He does what He does in spite of us. My husband Alan had the same experience that same evening at a meeting at a friend’s house. We had four meetings that Sunday and the folk at the Russian church which consisted of refugees from the old Soviet Union were really hungry for God and during ministry time they all fell down like dominoes one after the other and most began speaking in tongues. The children fell down too and I knew it was real when I witnessed a baby prayed for and saw his head just fall back on his Mothers shoulder under the power of the Spirit.

I must make it clear that we do not talk about our own personal experience generally but I do so here because it is part of my spiritual journey and was another life changing event. It is not something I can take credit for, or make happen it is down to God. It’s not something I even think about it until it happens and most often it happens during praise and worship times. On asking God why and what it was for in our own lives, for Alan it came as a sign to pray for someone and for me more of a confirmation of something that God had put on my heart, be it a word, a prophecy or to pray for someone. Many times it has just been a confirmation of a real presence of the Spirit. I am glad that I heard God and responded that day just sitting at my computer.

There were 2 incidences shortly after this that I will relate as a picture of how God used this gift. Firstly a Russian Mother asked me if I would pray for her teenage son who was rebelling against God. On agreeing I first wanted to talk to him and ask his permission and on chatting with him it became evident that his studying of science was a hindrance to him believing. I boldly asked him if it would make any difference if God gave him a sign and he said maybe. In faith I held out my hands to him and they were covered in oil and gold dust. He sank to the floor, accepted Jesus as his Saviour and was immediately baptised in the Spirit. God confirmed to me that although the inner life was the most important, outer manifestations do have their place too.

Soon after that I was having coffee in Starbucks when I noticed a family with a very sick looking little girl who looked like she had Leukaemia or something. I suddenly felt pressed to pray for her. In the middle of Starbucks, what was I thinking! Panic rose up and I said to God, “If this is what you want, then give me confirmation”. Suddenly oil appeared on my hands and I knew that there was no turning back. When I approached the Mother she was very sharp with me telling me that her daughter was very sick but I should not worry as it was not catching. I explained that that was not what I was suggesting but I wondered if I could pray for her. She wanted to know who I was and for me it felt like it was getting more difficult by the minute. I told her which church I belonged to and she became very embarrassed and said that she thought that her child would not cope with being prayed for in such a public place. She did however sound very pleased when I asked if she would like my church to pray for her daughter. The following Sunday the whole church prayed for this little girl and I saw that I had been taught another lesson. It was for me to be obedient to God’s promptings and the outcome is entirely His responsibility. I had initially been tempted to think that I had got it all wrong but who knows what seeds were sown. A life of faith is about trusting and believing and taking the next step no matter how small and insignificant it might seem at the time.

So, for the next six years we hosted this lady in our home whenever she came to the UK and organised meetings for her until the time came when I felt that we had connected her up with enough groups and churches for her to be able to make her own arrangements. As far as this story goes I will be wrapping it up and bringing you up to the present day in the next and final chapter. It has been interesting during some of the writing to realise that I have been learning all over again from my own writing. God gives us revelation and then through life experiences causes us to learn to walk in those truths. He changes us from one degree of glory to the next.

The Order of the Holy Spirit

One Hundred years ago something started to shift.
Something seismic happened, which the devil wanted to make sure never happened again.
So , in direct response, his ragings increased something like 10 fold. History is now there for everyone to see, but in the space of one short century, lest we concentrate any more time and energy to what just happened in Wales and Azusa Street and the Black Forest in Germany, he pulled and nudged and guided and directed left-brain locked humans:
into two world wars
inwhich callous generals sent wave after wave of human flotsam into the path of new killing machines in trench warfare
he inspired men to think it a good idea to arrange for themselves an Acts paradise of shared property and possessions without new birth and by superimposition from above in the name of atheism (Communism by way of Marx)
and to do this in such a way that in both Russia and China the biggest swathes of indiginous population up until this date were simply vaporised at the whims of dictator leaders.

Using age-old spiritism on one side and a hubristic left-brain hook-up on the other, he inspired the cleverest nation on earth to think they were weaving for themselves a completely new salvation that somehow involved the Aryan race, and the destruction of every living Jew in range by means of a clever mass organised purpose-built infrastructure that involved gas ovens.
And so the century continued, interspersed with other huge scale disasters such as the 1918 flu pandemic which killed more than the rest of the First World War.

Through the direct cat and mouse influence of one totally given to his schemes, the devil-inspired Chairman Mao Tse Tung, the Americans were drawn in hook line and sinker to a war that was impossible to win in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, the pincer movement back in the west was to so use the domestic disillusionment caused by this raging to further lock people up in their left-brains, such that by now all intelligentsia were now continuing in the very thought processes that had led up to the second world war in Germany..."the fact that clearly God was dead", "church was finished" and all that remained was the French philosophic movement of Sartre and Camus and existentialism. I was in University at the very tail end of this and read every so often of another student's death as in direct logical conclusion, another would hurl him or herself to her death off a high building.

So what was this thing that the devil was so sure he did not want further investigated?

Listen! It wasn't just the rediscovery of the baptism in the Spirit and the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit as principally outlined in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and referred to continuously if not obliquely at several points in Acts, as well as phrases such as "laying on of hands" in Timothy, and "powers of the age" to come as in Hebrews.

No.Something far greater was happening on the floor through Evan Roberts. Something that has scarce been mirrored since through nearly 100 years of programmed, progressive Pentecostal effort.

It was a COMPLETELY new Order. The Order of the Holy Spirit.
Where the One actually sent to prepare a Bride for the Son was allowed to fulfil His task, probably for the first time in such a corporate way since the Book of Acts was first written.

Now although, initially , in Wales at least, it was only one man who really got this order, who really understood how to move with it, a man called Evan Roberts, IT was Never
I repeat Never
I repeat Never
the Holy Spirit's intention to ever again raise up another human pyramid around a charismatic man,
a charismatic leader,
who would continue the line that the devil began in the garden
after his own order
which always involves pyramids of power based on the most willing to fall into line with his whims.
The devil only understands pyramids.
It's how he runs his own unseen kingdom.
Anyone falling into line with his unseen kingdom will build according to this pyramid.
The most obedient will look like the Italian mafia. Or Chinese Chairman Mao. Or Russian Lenin and worse still Stalin.
The less obedient will look like
Bill Johnson
Joseph Prince
Morris Cerullo
Benny Hinn
Yongghi Cho
Terry Virgo
Frank Viola
People who cultivate a culture that revolves around them. Without meaning to.
Simply because they have never learned to listen to the prophetic.
That somewhere within them is a blueprint of "the fathers" and how they have always run things, rather than being diligent to seek out how the Holy Spirit runs His church
as laid out in new books appearing by people like Jack Fortenberry (Corinthian Elders).
And with each new insight or angle, these other charismatic dazzlers write a book in their name which further cements
the idolatrous notion of a symbiotic relationship in the people of God.

Remember, the same spirit that works in unbelievers to call the Apostle Paul Zeus one minute, then when he refuses to play ball, they stone him,
is the same spirit at work in the church....
To the extent that the "independant self delusion is not dealt with". (See the rest of the contents of this blog or read the link to Norman Grubb's book "Yes I am".)

If I may I will write that again.
To the extent that a gathering of believers do not believe or are muzzy about who they are now since the Cross, is the extent they are still able to be manipulated by the spirit that takes its blueprint from the devil's pyramid order.

So God has instituted a way of running things
that does not involve a Pastor at the head of it.
That does involve apostles and elders.
But obliquely and subtly.
Like Evan Roberts.

If you can understand how a man can run things face down on the floor.
Then you can understand the New Order.
If you can understand how a man can run things by appearing to do nothing directly then you can start to understand a third level church.
If you can understand Moses standing on a hillside with a battle raging, with two men at his side lifting his arms....then you are starting to see it.
If you can see a group of men kind of piggybacking each other in a kind of tag game, delivering the Word in sequence , in the sequence the Holy Spirit shows, as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and all in the powerful Presence of the Holy Spirit

such as we saw oh so briefly in the London brothers at Friends meeting House in 1974-5.
As we saw oh so briefly at the beginning of their influence in the 70s, the brothers in Fort Lauderdale , Derek Prince,Don Basham,Ern Baxter,Bob Mumford etc.that so radically changed the way we did things in Britain.

If you can see the outbreak in Toronto in 1994, and understand that although it appeared to revolve around the couple John and Carol Arnott- THAT WAS NOT THE SUM OF ITS STRUCTURE.

If you can start to see in the Spirit what He was wanting to start doing through the platforms of Lakeland ,Florida in 2008.....and those who were there, it was not simply to build around the one man flame thrower Todd Bentley, although we must honour him as the fire-starter...well this end of heavenly proceedings...

But an order was starting to form. The same order that would have matured a hundred years earlier if Evan Roberts not been knocked out of the flow.

Yes God uses ministries. Men and women. Yes there is a sort of structure to things. Kind of familial. Yes there is mutual respect. Actually it is more like a dance in the flow of the Holy Spirit.

But once people actually understand what a ministry before God is. Once people understand the first ever post I wrote which can be found in Dan's Vaults and on his site....which was the words of Ed Miller.
A ministry is just a taxi driver to the throne of God. Once he has brought a believer there, his role is finished.

Ministry, and in particular 3rd level apostolic ministry is simply the presentation of Christ as a believer. Laying the foundation of Christ AS that person in a believer.
Ripping away the false delusion of an independant self, so that a human being can begin for the first time to live as was always his or her destiny....knowing Christ in them as them.

The point of what we are calling the Key of David way of running meetings is that believers experience this new order.
That they learn how to function in it, as was happening in Florida, and now appears to be continuing in IHOP Kansas.

All the men in the ministry list above are people with a David heart. Yongghi Cho even calls himself David.
But the first David, probably through exhuberance, and a lack of due diligence

returned the Ark to Jerusalem on a New cart. He was returning to "the fathers way of doing things"...by this I mean, not his spiritual fathers...because he would have then known to do it right, according the Levitical pattern...
No I mean "fathers" in the generic sense.
The way the world does things. The humanly expected method. The way that does not involve knowing the heavenly pattern. The default "pyramid" pattern that was drawn up by the father of lies. The one that does not involve relationship. Sensitivity.

A pattern which may not reveal itself straight away, but one that emerges pretty soon in the form of anger, frustration, fear, domination, and ultimately if not corrected
ICHABOD - the Glory is gone.

I believe when we receive revelation and the manner we receive revelation to be important. Like the heaps of stones, the waymarkers of the patriarchs.

I received the revelation of the New Cart way of doing things, the incorrect way, in precisely this context. Now God never allowed me to bring what I was seeing, He used me to bring something else. But it all surrounded, funnily enough in the context of this post, Wales.

I was in a Cinderella role in a Welsh Conference quietly helping out with some children's work. Actually not in the meetings at all. This was around 1983. There was an oppression affecting all of us. One aspect to it was some kind of Jezebel spirit coming through the women as well as control I guess coming through the men.
So the leader doing the kid's work and myself really gave ourselves to intercession. Actually we had no choice. Our guts were gripped by such an intense feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, and here we were trying to look a bit encouraged for the conference kids. Precisely then, and in that conference did I then get this whole gripping revelation about charismatics bringing the Ark back home on a New cart. But it is not until this blogin the last 2 years, that I have seen so clearly what we have been doing.
As soon as I got this clear breakthrough in revelation, the very next morning absolutely everybody was called into the main hall to seek God together. God used me to give a breakthrough prophetic word for the conference. I think that was my first in a conference setting. It was a clear prophetic promise concerning the significance of that conference for the whole of Wales. At that time there was so little happening in Wales as compared with England.

A breakthrough Word sets the tone of a conference or meeting. It is like an invasion of the Kingdom of God into what may have felt up until then quite a staid, normal human gathering, with nothing happening.

I am sharing this, not to draw attention to myself, but simply to say this post has already had accompanying signs to it. The material is not new, although it comes with greater clarity.
If we want the glory of God to return to God's House, we have to learn to do things according to the heavenly pattern and be extra diligent about not building any more symbiotic Zeus Clubs.
********************
This post was nudged by this Facebook post below and my personal desire to nail exactly what my misgivings are with people being so evidently used by God like Bill Johnson and Rob Rufus and Joseph Prince.
New Creation Church Is NOT A Cult!Share
Stanley Wong
Sunday, 07 February 2010 at 23:30
For the past few weeks, I have been playing Joel Osteen's DVD sermon, "A New Season of God's Mercy (Favour)", at my stall over and over again. Last Saturday, a first-time customer saw the DVD sermon and warned me to be careful of his teachings. She learnt that I was from NCC and immediately gave me a disapproving look and told me to "be careful of these cults; their teachings are not based on the bible". She also said that the preachers are promoting themselves only.

Despite she being my customer, I could not resist telling her off. I told her that she can disagree with NCC's teachings but she cannot label NCC as a "cult". It seems that the term "cult" is freely thrust upon any church that does not seem to conform to the preaching or theologies of mainstream/traditional churches, especially if the church in question does not belong to any recognized denomination. I'm sure that Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals and other denominations differ and disagree with one another on certain aspects of theology but you don't hear their church members labeling the other churches as cults.

Since 17 Dec 2008, I have been regularly attracting hits on my blog through google search. Anyone want to venture a guess on the googled keywords? Yes, you've guessed right: "new creation church cult" (see picture, left) and the reason why google direct them to my blog is because of the article I posted on 17 Dec 2008 - "Is New Creation Church a cult?".


In that post, I reprinted an article which described the characteristics of a cult, and I think it is worthwhile to reiterate the key points of that article here:

1. A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers.

2. The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

a) A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

b) A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person.

c) A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

The three elements listed above are very successful ways to create a group mentality, an us-against-them way of looking at things. This is essential for any cult that wants to keep its members. The more afraid of the outside world the members become, the more strongly and faithfully they will keep within the safe fold of the cult.



I regularly attend New Creation Church's Sunday worship service together with my family and about 19,000 other people, and from my personal experience, I can tell that we are not a bunch of tightly controlled zombies worshiping Pastor Prince. Pastor Prince himself has also encouraged us not to just blindly accept everything he says but to check his preaching with what we read in the bible for ourselves.


Pastor Prince's sermon CDs are available for sale at the Rock bookshop and on the online store, and those sermon CDs, which date from the year 2000 and represent hundreds of hours of preaching, are easily accessible to any critic who wish to mine for any evidence of Pastor Prince preaching heresy or focusing the attention and veneration of the members upon himself.

Sad to say, many of these critics shoot their mouths off based on hearsay rather than examining the evidence at the source. At this juncture, let me express my utmost respect for Pastor Kenny aka blogpastor who, in his blog post "Give Joseph Prince A Fair Hearing", said "Pastors should not just go by hearsay and what they read of others’ comments, but actually go to the source and give Joseph Prince a fair hearing: read his books or listen to his tapes. Put down your guns and set aside the warning label called “antinomian” for the time being, roll the sleeves, and do some honest research."

Without a doubt, Pastor Prince is a charismatic preacher but I challenge anyone to produce evidence of Pastor Prince preaching a sermon which promotes only himself. Every Sunday, we hear Pastor Prince preach only Christ and His finished work on the cross. Of course, not everyone agrees with all that he preaches, and over the years there have been people who left NCC because they could not accept his preaching but looking at how NCC has almost doubled from 10,000 members in 2004 to 19,000 today, it is obvious that many more have come than left. However, my point is not to boast about NCC's church growth but to highlight the fact that NCC's members are FREE to come and go, which certainly is NOT the characteristic of a cult.

About 2 weeks ago, a customer patronised my stall. I chatted with him and discovered that he also attends NCC. He said, "Coming to NCC was the best thing that happened in my life." He is not the only one to feel that way. I also feel the same and hearing the testimonies read in church every Sunday, I know quite a few others from America, Europe and other parts of the world feel the same too. Again, my point is not to boast about NCC but to highlight the fact that for every critic out there who objects to and disapproves of Pastor Prince's preaching, there are many more whose lives have been transformed for the better because their eyes have been opened through his sermons.

Am I asking you to agree with Pastor Prince's preaching? NO! I am asking you to listen to Pastor Prince's sermons and read his books for yourself before you condemn him, NCC and its members!! Don't you dare call NCC a cult without producing any evidence to support your accusation!!!

My reply and that of Geraldine Tan -Wee
Chris Welch The drawback with Pastor Prince is not Pastor Prince.The drawback is that it is like Acts 2 but with only Peter preaching.Now we know he was the first preacher, but he stood up with the other 11 surrounding him, and all of them were used to preach from house to house and probably in ongoing meetings. Pastor Prince as wide as he is on the very key subject of grace, needs the other 11, who have received the other revelations in God's Word. It would be like only feeding on Rob Rufus of Hong Kong or Ern Baxter in the 70s without all the other 70s preachers. Things Pastor Prince does not preach on yet, presumably because he hasn't met them yet, is "the dark night of the soul, and Romans 7 from this perspective, the Total exchange that took place at the Cross, and how we live our lives now Christ as me in my form, with my personality. He has that joy to come!!!
Today at 11:03 · Chris Welch But he is not a cultleader!
Today at 11:05 · Chris Welch For more light on all this read Jack Fortenberry's new book "Corinthian Elders". See my blog or Amazon
Today at 11:07 · Geraldine Tan-Wee The thing is this- the Holy Spirit teaches all things. PP(Pastor Prince, she means.Call no man father...or anything else for that matter! Receive them for their gift , yes, but the fruit is not your lips, it is actually hearing, understanding, and doing what they bring that you become a Living letter describing what they were bringing - then move onACW) does not have exclusive insight because the same teacher that teaches Him, teaches us. That said, some people have greater discernment than others. We all have the same source of wisdom, but not every one taps into it.

IMHO Why PP is a good pastor is because he boldly preaches grace without letting the naysayers faze him. And I am glad that he has a group of very good pastors (after 37 years of this stuff, this is a very chilling phrase indeed ACW)that also provide very interesting insight into the Word. Because most the sermons from our church that is shown overseas is that of our senior Pastor (just as Hillsong's is Brian Houston, CHC's is Kong Hee and Lakewood's is Joel Osteen, etc.) you have not met our other anointed pastors- Ps Matthews, Ps Gabriel, Ps Mark, Ps Lian, Ps Keith, Ps Christina, Ps Lawrence, Ps Benjamin, Ps Daniel, Ps Barnabas Kim, Ps Henry, Ps Darren, Ps Wee Soo Teck, Ps Joshua, .... hey! What do you know? That's more than 11 other pastors that share the pulpit and help lead the church along with him! =)

What is good is that he doesn't just feed the church members, he teaches them how to study the bible (and the writings of other grace based writers) in the right context. Most NCC-ers are able to discern the Word and study the Word in depth because sermons in NCC do go into the original Hebrew and Greek of the Word, as well as touch on biblical symbols and types. ... See more

And yes he is NOT a cult leader. I can still make my mind up about everything in my life. A cult leader won't allow that. =)

Today at 11:30 · ReportChris Welch It is very good that you write and make clear what is not clear to external televised audiences. Thankyou. I feel strongly the Holy Spirit is not letting your church off the hook though and I have tried to put it down in a long post here. Please understand I am not into destructive criticism.What the Holy Spirit is always doing is Yea and Amen ... ...Ever since the the 70s in our home town revival here in 72, followed by reading about Mel Tari, then subsequent meetings in London...I see the continuation of another order entirely emerging.
http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/order-of-hoy-spirit.html
17 minutes ago ·

A Study on The Three Levels of Maturity - Sylvia Pearce,It's original context and its current local church context

My thanks go to Merrill Thompson who has stored all these excerpts over years. This is his Facebook profile if people want more material, and this is how the container looks now.

Below is an MS DOS version, or rather dry left-brain code of the three levels of maturity. By that I mean, the Windows version is to be us! We are the Living letters that Paul writes about in 2 Corinthians 3 This is not to be disparaging about the format below. As we meditate on it it is actually packed with life.

Jesus said the time would come when we would worship "neither on this mountain nor at Jerusalem" . He then went onto say "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Here is an amazing thing when you think about the 3 years Jesus was with His disciples.
Jesus had laid His glory aside. He was functioning purely as we are meant to function. In His case as a container for the Life of the Father within Him. He had also been baptised in the Spirit when He was water baptised. But his disciples were not born again. Not as we know it now. He had not yet breathed His life into them. This could only happen after His body death at Calvary. And the disciples had certainly not yet been baptised with the Spirit. This happened to them some ten days after Jesus returned to His Father at His ascension, to be an exact prophetic fulfilment of the Jewish Feast of Pentecost : The First harvest.

Now Jesus was permitted to endow the disciples with a certain measure of the power of the Holy Spirit that was upon Him. With this power they were sent out to heal, perform miracles and proclaim that the Kingdom had come!
Yet , other than this, Jesus was transplanting His life into his twelve disciples by the power of the Word alone. He did not sit down and read books to them. They did not have His indwelling life that came later. They had received no overpowering release of the Spirit upon them in the form of a baptism in the Spirit experience, which is the believer's rightful due now since Acts 2. It is the Father's good pleasure to give you His Spirit without measure. And just pray that your body container can stand it!!!!
Yet during these three years....none of this. But just by living with Jesus. By His Spirit -filled Word alone penetrating their being, in the form of stories, in the form of timely rebuke, in the form of encouragement, in the form of being eyewitnesses to extraordinary miracles, in the form of learning Jesus pace of life in the Holy Spirit.Also, and this is not talked about much in Zerubbabel quarters, Hebrews 5:7, 7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered.....

He did not get a soft ride. Because He was the Son.
So , how "grace" people expect to glide into this grace walk as though it is a matter of believing yourself into a few scriptures.And that's it.
John Clarke (The Move) described it like this: "Some days will find you doubled up on the floor in agony. It is like the verse in Revelation which talks about the Word being sweet to the taste when you first hear it, but round about the time it settles on your stomach, it becomes a bitter thing, as the literal Word of God takes hold of your insides and changes you from within out."
Not for nothing the references to the labour of childbirth in scriptures.

This is the birth of the New Covenant in His people.

Beforehand you sing songs about it.

You talk about it in meetings,

You use the phrase in the Lord's Supper. "This is the blood
of my new Covenant."

But one day...it has been written in you. Across your insides.

And you become a living letter to others.
If Jesus then, within three years, by obeying the exact instructions of the Father, by just speaking Word, could move twelve men spiritually from child stage, through young man stage to Fatherhood stage, as expressed in Acts.....

Now the Holy Spirit has been outpoured

Now a peculiar vessel for the maturation of individuals has been birthed :The Living breathing Corporate Body of Christ-


How is it people are still taking 70 years to go through the growth stages?
Well. The meaning of the word "Satan " is opposer.

Satan is opposing the birth of this Manchild in the earth.

This corporate expression of Living letters.

Churches neither know the three stages. Or if they know it, it is mere head knowledge.
It's like reading this wonderful teaching script below....which is the legal language of all our inheritance in the Kingdom.....but it only then remains stored in the left-brain.
We have to eat it. Preferably along with the rest of the local family.
Here is some more on the functioning of the local New Covenant Church.
Chances are, many of you have not been able to experience this so far.

It's not taught in seminaries.
It's not clearly taught by powerful ministries like Morris Cerullo.
It's not taught clearly in Pentecostal churches.
Although denominational churches are starting along the path, having taken on board the Alpha courses, chances are they are not mature in this yet.
This is learned in the Spirit. In relationship with Jesus. Who ,by the way, is still alive! And is currently teaching those who will listen, all over the world, how He wants church done.

The importance of Corinthian Elders by Jack Fortenberry is that how we do leadership is totally rewritten. I used the phrase earlier "glided into". Well instead of gliding into Spirit stuff regarding leadership, all we've succeeded in doing is "gliding into" human tradition, human hand me downs
of what it is to lead. Most of this comes straight out of a skewed pyramid understanding of authority, which comes from the Fall.
Neither is it anarchy!
No leadership in the Kingdom is primarily relationship.
In just the same way that our first experience of it, for good and bad....came through our parents. And just as a good parent is after the maturation of their kids, such that they can go off and run successful independent lives, and pass this onto their kids.....this is actually the Kingdom way of reproducing Christ's Life in our form.



It is no coincidence that coupled with a new wave of the revelation of the Father, which came through what was popularised as the Toronto Blessing in 1994 through the Airport Vineyard Church, but what was always from the Kingdom perspective what it said on the tin :"The Father's Blessing"....well it is no coincidence that coupled with this revelation comes a totally but totally new perspective on how leadership works in the Kingdom. I would firmly counsel everybody to get this book. And no. There is stuff in this book that you will have heard from no one else. So, leadership covered, I want to give a potted version of the local church.
There is transformational power in the local church.

• When working properly, people will be laying the foundations of our new life listed in Sylvia's study below.
• The church will know how to enter the Living Presence of God in their worship. More and more of the congregation will be knowing the secrets of how you live there anyway.
• Learning how you enter a real experience of the Holiest Place together...how to respond to the Holy Spirit as a gathering as He takes you all still deeper (recent examples The New York meetings with Heidi Baker, The Key of David meetings here in Havant, many soaking meetings all over the world
• All the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be increasingly manifest, through the youngest believer to the most mature. Greater care, and love and respect will actually be invested on the younger members, as Paul writes in his Corinthian letter.
• Regular breakthoughs manifest in believer's lives
• The quickest way to learn how to function from the new Life within you
• All believers regularly prophesying and praying into other believer's lives
• A place where you can bring unbelievers who are hungry
• The Body knows how to bring itself forth. The Holy Spirit directs what needs addressing ,when, in a spirit of love, humility, and godly grace authority
• caring for one another's practical needs
• addressing local problems and needs, but not from a basis of those needs - that is humanitarianism - but based on the timing ,instruction and Word of the Lord.
• a place of training of the Authority of the believer. (testimony of prophetic faith declarations which resolved issues within hours/days months - the exposure of the Yorkshire Ripper (hours), the healing of Tony Fitgerald's wife 50 miles away in a hospital bed(same instant), the healing of an all but paralysed girl in the church such that she married and went to Barcelona to live (months), the healing of a son, then his father of a strain of leukaemia(weeks)
• learning how to be Christ to each other
• learning 3rd level laying down of your life to bring forth life in others.
• learning how to call on the Lord together. (See Hebrews 5:7 above)We learned much from the Argentinians who had been battle hardened in the many and various extreme financial recessions through the last decades in Argentina
• learn what it is when the tangible Presence of the glory falls. To rest still in this Presence for minutes /hours together. In the gospels we have examples when a particular Presence came down. For example the phrase"the Lord's Presence was there to heal"

If your local church is not like this, this is our birthright, and we are to give the Lord no rest until this pattern is everywhere in the earth. THIS IS NORMALITY for the believer.

The Three Levels of Maturity
Sylvia Pearce
I John 2:12-14
Little Children
“ I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name sake.”
“ I write unto you, little children, because you have known the Father.”
Why do we need our sins forgiven? And how can we know the Father?
The Fall Of Man.
Gen 3:1-15
Result Of The fall:
John 3:19-21-“Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light.”
Romans 3:10-18-“There is none good, no not one.”
Eph. 2:1-3 “Dead in trespasses and sins,” “the spirit that works in the children of disobedience” and “they were by nature children of wrath.”
Acts 13:46-“Judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life.”
I John 3:10-“Children of the devil.”
John 8:44- “you are of your father the devil.”
Rom. 6:17-“Slaves of sin.”
I Peter 3:19-“Spirits in prison.”
Romans 9:23-“Vessels of wrath.”
Romans 5:12-“Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
The Provision For Our Sins Through Christ’s Subsitutionary Death.
John 3:16-“For God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten Son.”
II Cor. 5:19-“To wit, that God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself.”
Col. 1:14-“Through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”
Romans 3:24-25-“Justified freely by his grace, through faith in his blood.”
I Peter 1:18-20-“Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.”
Heb. 10:12-“One sacrifice for sins forever.”
How is Christ Made Mine?
John 1:12-“As many as receive Him to them gave he power to become the sons of God.”
Acts 16:31-“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.”
Titus 3:15-“Not by works of righteousness which I have done but according His mercy He saved me.”
Romans 3:24-“Being justified freely by His grace through Christ’s redemption.”
Romans 3:28-“A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Eph. 2:8-9-“For by grace you are saved, through faith.”
Romans 10:9-“Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart, you shall be saved.”
How Can I Have The Assurance Of My Salvation?
Hebrews 4:9-10-“There remains a rest, labor to enter in.”
Hebrews 11:6-“For without faith it is impossible to please God.”
The Three Levels of Maturity
I John 2:12-14
Young Men
“I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.”
“I have written unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.”
How do we overcome the wicked one? Our sins are forgiven, but how about victory over sin, Satan, the works of the flesh, and the world?
Victory And Power In Daily Living
Romans 5:10-We are reconciled to God, by His death, but saved daily by His life.
Eph. 3:19-“That you might be filled with all the fullness of God.”
I Cor. 2:10-“That we might know the deep things of God.”
Eph. 1:18-“That you might know the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.”
II Cor 9:8-“God makes all grace abound towards you that we might have all sufficiency in all things.”
The Provision For Daily Living Is Through The Body Death Of The Cross
Romans 6:6-“The old man is crucified with Christ.”
Galatians 2:20-“I am crucified with Christ, I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.”
II Cor. 5:21-“Christ was made sin, that we might be made His righteousness.”
Romans 6:2-“We are dead to sin.”
Colossians. 2:11-“We are circumcised with Christ, putting off the body of sins.”
Romans 6:3-“We are baptized into His death.”
2 Peter 8:1-“We are partakers of the divine nature.”
Colossians 1:22-“In the body of His flesh to present you holy, and unblameable.”
Hebrews 10:10-“We are sanctified through offering of the body of Christ.”
Hebrews 10:14-“By one offering He hath perfected forever them who are sanctified.”
The Law, Not Sin, The Problem
Romans 7:4-“You also have become dead to the law by the body of Christ.”
Romans 6:7-“He that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:14-“Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are under grace.”
I Cor. 15:56-“The power of sin is the law.”
How Does This Work Out As Our Experience?
Romans 7:15-“For that which I do I allow not: for what I would that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.”
Romans 7:24-“O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Why Do We Experience the Bondages and Defeats of Romans 7?
Because not having completely learned, or easily forgetting, the basic helplessness of self, and its only function to be the container of the Spirit, we are constantly assaulted by temptation to be something or do something or not do something. Obey those commands pray more, give more witness more, be more patient, don’t lose your temper, get rid of those evil thoughts, struggle against your lusts, and so on.
The human being is only a receiver and not a producer of righteousness.
John 15:1-You are the branch, not the vine.
Romans 9:22-We are vessels of mercy, but formally vessels of wrath, but always vessels.
I Cor. 6:19-“You are the temple of the living God.”
Romans 6:17-You are slaves of righteousness, formally slaves of sin.
Romans 6:7-“He that is dead is freed from sin.”
The Human Being Has Never Been An Independent Self.
I John 4:6-“He that is in this world, and He that is in us.”
I John 4:6-“Spirit of truth, and Spirit of error.”
I John 3:10-“Child of the devil, child of God.”
Galatians 2:20-“I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.”
Romans 7:17-“It is not I, but sin that dwelleth in me.”
The Leap Of Faith
Colossians 3:3-4-“Christ, who is my life.”
Galatians 5:24-“In Christ we have crucified the flesh.”
Romans 6:6-“The Old self is crucified with Christ.”
Colossians 3:9 ; Eph. 22-24-“You have put off the old man with His deeds.”
Colossians 3:10-You have put on the new man which is renewed with a new mind.
Soul and Spirit Differences
I Thes. 5:23-“Sanctify your spirit, soul and body.”
Matt. 11:28-29-“There is a rest for our souls.”
Hebrews 4:13-“Sabbath rest for the people of God.”
Hebrews 4:13-“Diving soul from Spirit, joints and marrow, thoughts and intents.”
The School of Faith
Hebrews 11:6-“For with faith it is impossible to please God.”
Mark 11:22-“Have the faith of God, say unto this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea. And whatsoever you say, you shall have.”
Romans 4:17-“Call the things that be not as though they are.”
Detachments
( Nothing in this life is yours)
Luke 14:26-27—“Hate not his father, mother, wife, children, brethren & his own life.”
Genesis 22:2-“Take thy son, thine only son Isaac, & offer him there a burnt-offering.”
The Life Of Faith
Romans 4:20-“Abraham staggered not at the promises of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised He was able also to perform.”
Hebrews 11-The great heroes of faith.
The Three Levels of Maturity
I John 2:12-14
Fathers
“I have written unto you, Fathers, because you have know Him, that is from the beginning.” Our life is poured out for others.
John 21:18-“Another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou would not.”
Credentials of an Apostle
John 10:17-18-“Why does the Father love me?” “Because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.” “I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it up again.”
Hebrews 5:14-“He that is full of age has their senses exercised to discern good and evil.”
I Corinthians 4:9-15-“God has set for the Apostles as last as it were appointed to death,” “We are fools for Christ sake, but you are wise, we are weak, we are despised,” “Being reviled, we bless, being persecuted we suffer it, being defamed, we retreat.” “We are made the filth of the world, and the off scouring of all things.”
II Corinthians 1:5-“For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us,”
Works of an Father/Apostle
Ezek. 22:30-“I sought for a man to stand in the gap.”
Colossians 1:24-“I fill up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ.”
Galatians 6:2-“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”
The Call Of An Apostle/Intercessor
Don’t look for your intercession, and when it comes you won’t want it.
Jesus said “Take this cup from me.”
Jonah 1:2-“Arise go to Nineveh,”
Exodus 3:10-“I will send thee unto Pharaoh”
Isa. 6:9-“Go, and tell this people.”
John 1:6-“There is a man sent from God.”
The Cost of an Intercessor
Isa. 54:4-“He bore our grief, and carried our sorrows.”
Isa. 53:12-“He has poured out his soul unto death.”
II Corinthians 1:9-“We have the sentence of death in ourselves.”
II Corinthians 4:8-12-“We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed: we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in my mortal flesh.”
II Corinthians 4:11-“For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
The Completion and Fruit Bearing Of An Intercessor
II Corinthians 4:11b-“Death works in us, but life works in you.”
John 12:24-“If the seed die, it brings forth much fruit.”
John 15:16-“He has chosen you to bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain.”
Hebrew 2:10-“Bring many sons to glory”
Little Children,
Young Men,
and
Fathers