Fallen Demigods of the Christ Institutions

 

The mirror world has it all worked out .

King David is a wrong' un.

I was going to use a modern church name but lets leave it at David .

The only reason we know is

He's a king

There's a prophet

And it's the Bible .

There's no public record of Hilary and Bill Clinton .

Obama . Prince Charles . The Queen . Or there wasn't until the Super soldiers and the SRA victims and the internet .

But the Bible is real . Clean . And about reinstatement .

Charismatic church is the highest form of spirituality that we have at present , but like Catholicism and evangelicalism, it's corrupted by the two way Darkness hookup :

Pyramid shape and coerced tithing .

People know there is no mercy .

It's a strange transition .

Stoning is the law for adultery .

We could all go like France who live in open society with leaders all having mistresses and everyone does their Gallic shrug .

As the Satanic Ritual Abuse survivors are revealing , the System hookup with Principalities and powers has to supply regular Loosh energy by performing rituals that all made us sick when we learned .

It has a horrible desensitizing effect .

I have no clue if White Hats is a real thing , since Trump and Elon and Maye Musk are all Order of the Black Sun anyway .

What I do know is that King David was now in the stupid realm that God never ever proposed , so that no one person is ever under that kind of pressure .....

It's not you the people have rejected Samuel , it's Me said the Lord .

God does not build with kings .

He doesn't build in pyramids .

IHOP can demand revival as much as they want .

It's not God's order .

So what did we learn from David ?

There's a place beyond moral failure but only if we cry out for it .

Lord , unite My heart to fear your Name .

I'm assuming when David was old and given concubines to keep the King warm , they were safe ?

The Bible is pretty transparent , so I guess it would have said .

In the mirror world , after performing your demigod function in a church of Pharoah ......if you ever fail .

That's it .

And if the pyramid ever keep you on .....like France .....it's kind of suspicious anyway and you become known for a louche society .

Loosh and louche ....one as energy for fallen ones and one as moral failure seem connected .

There's a place beyond Charismatic .

There's a place beyond pyramids .

There is a place of ' if the eye is single ' then our bodies are filled with Light .

Not just anointing for a meeting Light .

Lived light .

There is a thirdlevel Christianity which isn't the American copout of Jesus AND ME

There's a Romans 6 to 8 Christianity .

There's a what is Jesus doing next Christianity .

There's a jump right in Christianity of Ezekiel 47 River .

There's a Living Keeper of the Law Christianity called Jesus in us as us.

There's souls .....not just our main spirit being replaced. ...but our souls branded by some hellfire burning .

The mirror world discard tarnished images .

We prefer Jesus living in us as us , and learning that no matter how anything looks .

Jesus came from perfection and stayed there .

The Word God brings is replacement , so that it isn't about Genesis 3 at all .

Genesis 3 .....the whole thing .....Tree of Good Tree of Evil ......is severed at the root.

As you hear the Satanic Ritual Abuse survivors you will hear how GOOD and EVIL it is .

The top Mothers of Darkness , might be in Catholic Mass daily .

Others might be forefront philanthropists but in fact they are the oaks of Darkness pushing forward their evil Carnegie or Rhodes plans for Lucifer .

We died in Christ , not to get anointed meetings .

We died in Christ to be able to house Him as our Operator , and to destroy the whole Genesis 3 platform of independent god .

Jesus refused earthly kingship .

He refused to be the pinnacle of the new movement .

As soon as the disciples were getting things He says " No more do I call you disciples but friends if you do as I command you ".

And He makes it clear He"s leaving .

And He will send His very spirit .

Not just like Charismatics as some kind of one flask of oil ......

But He is His own wedding , in us .

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Your whole idea of Jesus Ministry is "mooncentric"

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Our idea of Jesus comes entirely from “ moon culture”.
Revelation says of the Bride in Revelation 12 “ the moon is under her feet”
Moon culture is separation , is Genesis 3 duality. God out there somewhere.
So the Catholic idea of Jesus
The Protestant idea of Jesus
The modern charismatic idea of Jesus,though better.... is still coming from separation.
My idea of Jesus is coming from two things.... experience in Him living my Life and the Bible.
See, the garbage preached about particular points isn’t what is in the Bible.
What points?
Jesus actual life and actual ministry.
If you go back and actually read the Bible you won’t find any basis for the crap that is in churches.
Pentecostals believe life revolves around miracles. It doesn’t. Miracles follow after the Word and our priestly ambassadorial ministry.
Ministry doesn’t come by the left brain , it is a gift of the ascended Christ which yes uses all of us and all of our experiences. It doesn’t come from seminaries. It doesn’t give us the right to pastor churches. No man pastors churches. Jesus pastors churches through many apostles many prophets many pastors many evangelists many administrators and many teachers. Jesus can’t trust His precious Bride to one human.
Jesus didn’t do a single supernatural thing until after the baptism in the Spirit . My generation did far more than Jesus at 13. We were blessed in our time period to be in the Jesus Move.
Many kids now are used to singing in tongues at church and laying hands in the sick.
But we are coming from a sin inheritance , Jesus wasn’t . Regardless of how that sin thing works: Kay Fairchild says there is nothing there... just human tradition. I say , no, we are born in the realm dominated by the god of this world , even in the pulls on what we think is our old nature.
The Union crowd. Zerubbabel. Me. Daniel Yordy. And I believe, the Bible, teaches that this lust for “ the independent delusion spirit” IS in the heart of a child. Folly. It is a spirit. But it is a mystery of sin.
When we see the word mystery we know it can’t be defined adequately in the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That goes for all of them. The mystery of Christ in you. The mystery of the Body of Christ. The mystery of marriage between a man and a woman , Ephesians 5, or the mystery of a man and a maid, Proverbs says.
There is no mystery in lesbianism or homosexuality. The mystery is what happened when Adam was put to sleep and the woman was taken out of his side.
The mystery is what happened when Jesus was put to sleep and the Bride was taken out of Him.
The mystery is how non spatial women are when driving
And how non spatial men are when it comes to fridges, shopping and cupboards
I mean how does that even work???
In Union there is a real incompleteness being put back together again.... and this includes Jesus!!!!! Think of that?
The other large lump of poo 💩 is what churches teach about Jesus coming into ministry. Jesus didn’t launch knowing exactly what to do, He followed the Spirit.
Like us.
He was driven into the desert.
At first He refused to do anything at the Cana wedding
At first He mistook the huge following He had for genuine spiritual hunger until the Spirit showed Him the difference and He declares it in John 6.
He did not know how He should do Jewish Feasts. The Spirit showed Him in JOHN 7 that He was the Feast.
He was just too affected by the death of His cousin. The Spirit showed Him He needed a close group.... not only for them.... but it was good for Him too.
Jesus learned on the hoof. He already had the Life, now He had to learn how on earth to share it. This is our challenge as Galatians 2.20 people surrounded by churches and Christians still living in separation.

David's New Cart is a Bigger Parable than we thought

2 Samuel Chapter 6


David's New Cart is a fabulously rich allegory.
It speaks at every level flesh is to be found.
It speaks of the Catholics dire work round solution concerning the Mass.....has to be the biggest New Cart on earth at the moment.
But the New Cart also speaks into the second level....
the charismatic merrygo round in precisely the same way as the episode of Jesus by the pool of Bethsaida, and I must thank the apostolic figure Alan Vincent for perceiving that one back in 1976.
NEW CART dogs all forms of thirdlevel operations
E. Stanley Jones
The Move under Sam Fife - Daniel Yordy will tell you best about that
Certain aspects of me on here are new Cart.....for example some of what I am doing is sharing stuff of such purity that like Onan , I am spilling seed on the ground ready to be stamped underfoot by people that just cant hear it....and Jesus speaks soooooo strongly about that. "If you are not received shake your sandals (or trainers) from your feet and move on"
The Union Crowd's non involvement with the baptism in the Spirit and the Spirit revelations of how the Body is built is pure NEW CART.
Since Norman Grubb began his articulation of that which Christ worked in him at the precise time he was with Jessie Penn Lewis.....on the one side it has been the wisdom of God to get a fantastic leftbrain version out in several of his books culminating with "Yes I Am", but in another just going from little housegroup to little housegroup holding little lectures is incredibly NEW CART.
It's like the Communists nicked the method of proliferation of their radical ideas through little communist cells staright out of John Wesley's "Class Meeting Idea".
But God never ever said in scripture to hold class meetings.John Wesley got that from Oxford University tutorial systems which comes via Jesuitry from Greek Mystery religions and ultimately back to the rebellious tribe of Dan .
It's very sweet Norman Grubb helping God out by inventing the modern Christian Union in Universities
...InterVarsity Fellowship and the associated InterVarsity Press.....
But what that did was proliferate this awful leftbrain locked form of Christianity which, like David's Cart was a quick work round solution, .....
Hey it's good enough for the Philistines it's good enough for us,David said.
God said It isn't good enough for you because my Presence isn't safe in crucibles of man's design. People die.
Back a moment to first and secondlevel Christianity and the thirdlevel Christian Community which imploded in Colden Common, Near Southampton UK.
What did they all have in common?
THE NEW CART WORKROUND SOLUTION OF A SINGLE PYRAMID PASTOR!!!!
Colden Common exploded into thin air because third levellers at that time were still infected with the Catholic Pagan overhang of ONE MAN overseeing a local congregation.( obviously Catholics call them priests or "fathers". But Jesus says call no man father.)
Two Pastors fought and knocked both of them out of the coop.
As far as I can tell since the early 80s there isnt a single thirdlevel church in the UK. And because of its New Cart features it is arguable whether the UK ever had a thirdlevel Church.
Are any of you getting how endemic our propensity to build what God isnt building ....or to use methods that come out of the mind of man and not purely by the Spirit of God?
And don't think Jesus had an easy time either.
Within a few short chapters of the gospels, he went from Benny Hinn multitude type operations, to actually turning the other direction when he saw the multitudes coming out of the cities and towns.
So I am not really condemning anyone....I am saying we are all learning on the hoof how today's new wineskins work according to the Blueprint of the heavenly Tabernacle.
EVERY GENERATION AND THEIR NEEDS AND LIFESTYLES ARE DIFFERENT.....BUT ITS THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT GUIDING US THROUGH THE "MANSIONS OF GOD" THAT JESUS HAS PREPARED.

Call no man pastor

Chuck Lawless writes old school telltale signs "that you need to pray for a pastor"
10 SIGNS YOUR PASTOR NEEDS PRAYER By Chuck Lawless • August 24, 2017
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“I’ve seen the most patient, giving pastors surprisingly lose their cool when other issues are weighing on them.”
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“If we desire personal growth, we have to get around people who are or have already been where we wish to go.”
I write this post as one who has served as a senior pastor, associate pastor and interim pastor. I know the times when I desperately wanted the increased prayers of my church for various reasons, but I was too private and arrogant to ask.
Based on my life and years of interactions with pastors, here are some signs you might watch for:
1. Pulling Away From People
Pastors who begin to disconnect from their people are likely dealing with something. Whatever it is, seclusion is seldom the answer.
2. Disorganization in Sermons
Pastors whose sermons unexpectedly begin to lose focus need our prayers. Something’s likely in the way of preparation.
3. Less Passion in the Pulpit
This one’s a subjective assessment, but you know when your pastors lack the fervor they used to have.
4. Fewer Stories of Day-to-Day Evangelism
When we carry heavy burdens—or are even dealing with private sin—we do less evangelism. That’s not a good sign.
5. Difficulty Listening
You know the scenario: You’re talking to someone, and that person is looking right past you. Pastors who no longer listen well are probably dealing with something else in their head.
6. Quickly Becoming Frustrated
I’ve seen the most patient, giving pastors surprisingly lose their cool when other issues are weighing on them.
7. Unfinished Tasks
Leaders who are increasingly distracted often fail to complete tasks they almost always finished in less-stressed days.
8. Forgetfulness
It happens to all of us on some days, but struggling pastors are often more inclined to forgetting their commitments, appointments, etc.
9. Burdened Spouse
Sometimes you can first tell something’s heavy because you see the weight in the eyes of the pastor’s spouse. A family is at times more obviously burdened than the pastor is.
10. Denial
When seemingly distracted pastors deny they’re dealing with something, that very denial should be a call to prayer. Take the signal—and hit your knees on behalf of your pastor.
What might you add to this list?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well what I'd like to add to this list Chuck is that no scripture anywhere talks about one man heading up any church anywhere. I think you may have that confused with Jews, synagogues and Rabbis.
The "one man " technology was bought wholesale with Catholicism. in the Bible there are elders over local churches, plural, and all sorts of recognised ministry callings, all functioning along side each other.
Apostles ,prophets, pastors, teachers evangelists, discerners of spirits,administrators, helps. A pastor is not a designated head over anything, so right there most of your examples are registers of illegal burnout caused by nobody reading the scriptures and learning from the Holy Spirit what a church really is. But i guess Chuck , actually putting things right would be too much for your generation, so thirdlevel Christianity will have to wait , like the Israelites for the next generation down. When are you planning to die?
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3 Cecilia Tacuboy Urian, Andrew Thurner and Paul Noble
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Paul Noble
Paul Noble This list is like someone talking about crossing the Atlantic in a sailing ship when we have air travel!

Churchplants - Maintaining and Sponsoring Pyramid Leaders in your locality!!!!!

This open letter (below) looks great in terms of current churches. In that context it's a great letter.
I mean, think in terms of a prisoner concentration camp curate, a man working in incredibly negative circumstances to bring people forth in faith.
But in Biblical terms it's a disaster........read it first

.

An Open Letter to Pastors (Hint: You’ll Want to Read This One)By Brian Dodd      Original here
I write this post with tears literally in my eyes. Charles Spurgeon once said, “Whenever God means to make a man great, He always breaks him in pieces first.”
As a member of INJOY Stewardship Solutions, I get to have personal one-on-one conversations with over 1,000 pastors each year. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who stand in our pulpits each and every Sunday. There are several things I want to say to pastors as someone who sits in your church each week.
I respect your competence. You are smart and the world’s best communicators. You have a supernatural ability to take a passage of biblical text and pull out the truths that bring us comfort and guide us toward right living.
I respect your patience and kindness. You love us unconditionally in spite of our bad advise on how you should preach or lead the church.
I respect your bravery. You do not shy away from tough passages which are not well-received in a politically correct culture.
I respect your diligence. There are countless hard choices you are forced to constantly make.
I respect your preparation. Every seven days you give us a fresh word from God.
I respect your family. You live in a fishbowl and have to appear perfect.
I respect your generosity. You love people so much you are willing to earn far below the level of your education so we can know God.
I respect your compassion. Your knees are callused as a result of constantly praying for us.
I respect your commitment to Jesus and His mission. Because you love Him so much you answered the call to go into an incredibly unstable profession.
I respect your vision. You see those in your church as what they could be, not just what they currently are.
I respect you for being by my side. Every significant moment of my life—salvation, baptism, wedding, hospitals, baby dedications, funerals. You were there.
And I respect what no one sees. I respect the fact that you were broken to pieces by God. Personal Heartbreak. Sadness. Doubt. Disappointment. Devastation. Hurt Feelings. Sleepless Nights. Unspeakable Pain. You don’t talk about this part of your journey much. But one of the main reasons God uses you so effectively is you have been broken to pieces for His glory and our benefit and did not quit. You will finish this race.
And for this I say “Thank You.” And I and countless others will thank you every day for eternity because you were willing to pay a personal price others did not. And because you paid that price, I and others I love met Jesus.
You may not think anyone notices the price you paid. But this is not true. You are loved and respected. And I just want to say one more time to you and your spouse, “Thank You.”

==============
Chris Welch This open letter looks great in terms of current churches. In that context it's a great letter.
I mean, think in terms of a prisoner concentration camp curate, a man working in incredibly negative circumstances to bring people forth in faith.
But in Biblical terms it's a disaster.......

In terms of the simple gospel obeying Jesus commands
Go into all the world and and preach the Kingdom of God saying
Repent be baptised (totally Greek =dunking) and be likewise dunked totally in the Holy Spirit
so you now have a normal congregation in Jesus terms
where all know Jesus from the least to the greatest, where the New Covenant is beginning to be written with a grace pen circumcisong the human heart, where no one grabs his or her neighbour saying know the Lord for they all know Him as we did when we were birthed into the Jesus Move knowing nothing in the 70s, except for some awful Methodist behaviour in my case which I had to hurriedly ditch in the nearest waste bin.
In Biblical terms where there are elders, and only there because they have been round the Throne a tad longer....until the others learn....because the local church is hothousing them them through 1 Corinthians 12-14 behaviour and Ephesians 4 behaviours.
No in real Christianity terms, the sort we were in nearly 50 years ago this letter is a complete disaster. It describes pyramid behaviour at its worst and doesn't have any Biblical backing whatsoever. Maybe Old Testament Rabbi in a synagogue type backing, but it is nothing to do with what Jesus was building on earth in the gospels nor from heaven in Acts and the letters.
SO NO......THIS MUST BE EXPRESSED IN THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE WAY. IT IS NOW 2016 AND THE WESTERN CHURCH IS IN OPEN REBELLION WITH HER HEAD, ONLY A TAD WARMER THAN THE CATHOLIC WING.
Brokenness is not a PRIZE of specialness....it's what happens when a person actually does what is on the tinlid and comes into the Kingdom properly in a local church that lives in Galatians 2.20 from GROUND ZERO.

Two types of Hairy-tic

Hairy-tic

Facebook Status in the Hairy-tics group

There are two sorts of Hairy-tic.
In Different Drum by M Scott Peck he spells out 4 stages we pass through
1. egotistic and unsocialised
2. socialised
3. wanting to break out again and find what is really OUR TRUTH
4. a contented fusing as we understand who we are and how we work but in the context of the whole.
Peck who was a counsellor, wondered why one set of Christians would continue as Christians after counselling, and another set would do just the opposite.

Well, as for any other person, the Christian version sort of happens in 2,3 and 4.

So you can have a hairy-tic who is in stage 3 reappraising their whole identity....and once the process has settled down they are content to toddle off back to church....but another sort remains a hairy-tic in the more heretic sense and say finds Buddhism is more their thing. Or weird as this sounds to me...someone can go to what was one of the most radical praise churches on the planet....certainly in the UK....then next thing they are going to the most high Anglican service you can find.

Originally the phases as created in God were meant to match our growth.
Because of the Luciferian way in which we are brought up as people in a secular bubble with the briefest dashes of anything religious....much of the idea of worship and sensitivity to the Divine that say a Muslim or orthodox Christian or Buddhist or Orthodox Jew, or American Indian or Aborigine or shaman culture would be be brought up in, certain parts of us are held back....and if you believe in the different cabals all vying Game of Thrones style for supremacy.....then you'd better believe this as deliberate as only allowing Radio 2 music in all the factories, to create a sort of mindless vague level of contentedness while stuffing widges into a doodad on a production conveyorbelt. We are not encouraged in any way to relate to anything outside a certain set of pyramids. If we think too much we might just want to overturn their system which benefits a few.

So Jesus went through the stages in 1 John 2 roughly at the same time as
natural development. By 30 He was a FATHER stage person able by the Spirit to speak the Word necessary to bring 12 ragamuffins into His own Father stage of development.

WE HOWEVER are rather catching up.
Most westerners don't know they have been raised lopsidedly in the leftbrain and need to spend a certain portion of their adult life getting back in touch with who they really are. THIS HAS THE LOOK OF being a heretic. BUT IT IS totally necessary psychologically if all the parts of our being are going to progress to the next stage. The final stage demands utter harmony between all parts of us.
ie....it just isn't good enough if all the while we are squashing down a rather nattered and bruised upbringing, trying with all our might to swim as fast as we can with our head above water, to try and show that we are every bit as good as the next man.

Secondlevel churches start to become a problem about the time individuals should really be entering into the father stage of Christianity, but all they are faced with every week is a pyramid pastor who may allow five to ten minutes free stuff...but basically it's still largely his show, and he loves to be paid a tithe to ever keep it that way. None of this is Biblical Christianity.

Someone said yesterday they hate the phrase
And we should gather ourselves together ever more often as we see the Day approaching
Well, for the reasons above....GATHERING just fills you with shudders.
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Chris Welch Oh....the other sort of Hairy-tic is in Hebrews 13.13
One who
"enlarges the place of the tents" as it says in Isaiah.

When you do what is truly best for you.....

When you do what is 'truly' best for YOU . . . it will naturally serve those around you! 'Happiness' Coach Carolee Dalton

Chris Welch writes on Facebook
This throws up some pretty deep thinking if you align this with this sentence:we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [k]by what every joint supplies, according to the [l]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.Ephesians 4
Let's zone in on "proper working of each individual part."
Judgment begins with the household of God. This means a lot more than broader sins.
I AM A PIANO TUNER and I begin with one string of one note, and work out to the rest of the piano.
God begins with His church. The administration He is rolling out Ephesians 1:10 begins in His household.
If He is rolling out an administration based on Galations 2:20, the new consciousness that He lives my life, it follows that we'd better find out a bit about how Jesus as Chris Welch,Jesus as Carolee Dalton best works. Now as a Life Coach Carolee Dalton is probably focussing on individuals finding how to maximise their own potential. What I'm suddenly seeing is bigger. You see if we're all nestled somewhere in some big Rothschild pyramid performing a function of his choosing rather than our own, even if we are Christians we are misusing ourselves. And the ones that hinders the most are those members of the Body of Christ we would have been helping to build up were we functioning "according to the proper working of each part." Let's scroll back inward to church.
If a pastor assumes scriptures say that the pastoral gift is one that is exercised as an administrative CEO of some local corporation known as the church, his eternal "megaphone role" out the front of church is actually preventing the proper working of each individual part. One pastor one church dates back to periods before anybody knew they were saved, baptised in the Spirit, and knowing Galations 2:20 in their own lives as the Father stage of growth. But that's just a preliminary criticism. St Paul was so far reaching as an apostle he didn't even see the Body in terms of meetings. in the Ephesians 4 passage it doesn't talk in terms of meetings. (it doesn't exclude them either)But it's speaking in terms of a whole manner of living on the earth.

Eyes Wide Shut

ALL WRONG ON THE EARTH is in these words "then were the eyes of Adam and Eve opened."
What eyes?
I used to think it was at our centre. Or in our conscious thinking.Unfortunately it's subconscious, somewhere in between the two. And we are the last to know about it. But it is no less real. It powers our entire life. It is that portion of our life , that like a cancerous tumour, is like a God-given part of us that has overexpanded falsely to become a useless ugly clump, yet it draws all evil upon us, from getting us to do all kinds of wrong, to drawing the very thing we fear in towards us. Satan himself operates us from here. If we are Christians our actual identity has changed already at the centre of our being, but this area of false seeing which is above our real self,can literally continue for decades. Our best friends can often not tell us. Our parents probably already tried.
Now here's the thing. God's love ,Hesed and Agape (Hebrew and Greek)is covenantal. Marriage is covenantal.It is a love framework that is based on unconditional love. Churches are meant to have this love too, but they don't yet. Third Level Christianity is about Covenant Love. It is laid out in John 17:21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
Marriage need not be covenantal. A piece of paper doesn't necessarily change everything. But "Living together unmarried", where you haven't made a public commitment of any strength to each other at any time, may not be a covenantal framework strong enough to mutually provide unconditional love.
Whether married or single it's this cancerous seeing...this GOD PLUS SOMETHING "seeing" that causes all sin.
Covetousness is "seeing something as yours" that God isn't giving.
So is all theft. Adultery is theft.
Sin is doing something that the One Life that is in the Universe ISN'T doing. What actual LIFE is doing is what young people call "Keeping it real", and what Caribbeans call "that flows man".

Unfortunately if enough people have the same type of cancerous seeing, they begin to gain a momentum that has nothing to do with the LIFE of the Universe. Romans 12 says "Be not conformed to this world but be renewed according to the spirit of your minds."
Notice it doesn't say change your thoughts.
It says change the spirit driving those thoughts.
Change the subterranean thinking area. Where you are "seeing" more than God going on.

So there's two types of stilted behaviour going on.
There's a stilted behaviour that is a manipulation of what people "want" to happen, but God isn't actually doing it.
But there's a second type of JOLT which is where a person who IS living according to God's LIFE suddenly addresses your wrong seeing.

An alcoholic SEES "drink". Things get a bit stilted when someone who has spent years accommodating this illness suddenly addresses the other person and says...."You either get that alcohol problem sorted or I'm outta here."
The alcoholic gets quite shirty, because in his or her world they are seeing "DRINK" alongside everything else in their nice existence, but not taking into account the devastation caused in the trail of the effects of excess alcohol.

In churches we are currently addressing PYRAMID leadership, the carnal tradition that says that one man should be in charge of a church. We are also addressing the carnal notion inherited from Catholicism that God still demands a tithe for some non existant Levitical priesthood.

If we were just addressing ideas it would be a simple job. But these are not "ideas". They are the visible tip of two enormous interlocked icebergs underneath in the subconscious minds of Christians as to the very idea of what Christianity is and what a church is.

Those notions of false seeing are rooted in Satan himself. They are cancer within the church.

The New Covenant talks of GIVING but doesn't specify.
And All Ministry is to train and instruct people in Christ in Us the hope of Glory. How when and through whom is up to the Leader of the Church, Jesus Christ Himself. Elders are in the frame. Different ministry gifts are in the frame. But nowhere do we see one man at the top of a local or extralocal pyramid saying "this is my church". James seems to have been some administrative head in Jerusalem, but all the apostles went from house to house sharing.

The other way this subconscious false seeing affects churches is like this. Now you have all heard of builders trying to get their clients to rent another house, or get the lady of the house out of the way when they are renovating.
There are times when carers are lovely. There are times when carers are fascists . Ladies generally like clean tidy kitchens. Builders need to change electrics, lay floorboards,replace worktops, retile, put in walls, drill huge holes in things....everything these mums of the house hate. Yet to achieve the goal, they have to do it.

In the churches are caring pastor ministries who see primarily how things are on the surface...even if it's being sensitive to emotions and situations. They are made like that. That's what they do.
Prophets stare unblinkingly at the false areas of seeing in people and like looking at cancerous tumours, are well aware that if that person doesn't lose that false seeing pretty darned quick...then
churches split
people divorce
businesses fail
children are smashed up for life
people get sick......

Eventually, by knowing people long enough, pastors also learn this, but often it's by this time caused no end of trouble already . And the pastors shrug their shoulders in their non-committal fashion as they do, as if to say "What me guv" ...."I'm sorry, how was I to know...I just didn't know."

So like the building work, sometimes you have to send these fascist carers out, in order that the disruptions begin, as people get to grips with the hidden areas of "false seeing" in people's lives.

NOW....here's the problem. You'd better be 100 % right in your prophetic seeing, or you're tearing at someone's TRUE CELLULAR makeup and not at CANCEROUS growth. And yes,immature ministeries do this. That's why there is a third level. So we are all mature doing what Christ in us does naturally.

We're going for every area of each of our lives where it's GOD PLUS SOMETHING.

Anybody can GIVE what they like voluntarily...anywhere from 0 to 100%. But it has to be voluntary.
Benny Hinn has no New Covenantal right to demand a tithe.
Why?
Because the New Covenant is free. You freely received you freely give.
If you teach to be a Christian you have to tithe, you are saying the same as to be a Christian you have to be circumcised.
You DON'T Have to ADD anything to the salvation you have in Jesus.
To Add any more is Jesus PLUS. Or GOD PLUS. It's cancer.
You are commanded to be baptised in water to TELL YOUR BODY what it's like to have gone into the grave with Jesus.
You are commanded to break bread and drink wine to tell your BODY what it is to take and eat and drink the very Body and Blood of Jesus. No, not transubstantiation. But to tell your body that right now in the heavenly places your own flesh and blood is right inside the actual flesh and blood of Christ in His resurrected form.
How can that be? I dunno. It's called the mystery of the Body of Christ!!!!

The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing

To begin with have a look at Julie's post.
Ahhhh, the old tithing question, next to universal atonement, maybe one of the most hotly debated teachings among the grace crowd. For a broader view of the no-tithing side of the debate I highly recommend Joel's series over on Grace Roots. Also Bertie Brits has some great teaching available on his website Dynamic Love Ministries.

Why do I think it's important to talk about? Well, I think if I've learned anything from the many grace preachers and teachers out there, I've learned how serious it is to mix in law with grace, even if it is only the tiniest whiff of the tiniest drop of it. Of course I don't believe any of us will live in 100% pure grace while living in this broken down world, but I do think we can avoid hanging on to bits of the law mentality in obvious teachings and practices.

In fact, I don't think anyone has a good excuse to be teaching tithing (and I think I've probably heard most of the excuses) because I know people have been questioning those teaching tithing, even bringing in applicable Scripture ect... I know this because I personally know people who have done this, including myself. I don't want any 'have to's' mixed in with my good news! This does NOT mean that I don't love and appreciate and learn loads from grace teachers who teach some form of tithing. Some of my favorite grace preachers still hang on to it as far as I know--some in a very gracious way and some in a much more blatantly Old Covenant way.

One important reason to stop preaching tithing is it is VERY confusing to people coming into the revelation of New Covenant grace. I am often questioned about why grace preachers are still talking abbout tithing. In the mind of someone coming out of legalism, they hear the good news that they've been set free from ALL law and requirements in the New Covenant and start to feel new freedom, then they hear the same preacher tell them they must still tithe and confusion sets in. How many other requirements are they still bound to? Maybe the good news is not as good as it initially seemed? Maybe there is still some bondage in some areas? As one of my fellow gracers once commented to me on the subject, "I just don't feel released from tithing yet". So is tithing the one thing Jesus didn't release us from??? Do I need to feel released or believe I'm released?!?!

Let me just say again, I do not want to disrespect anyone who still believes in tithing in grace. I'm not trying to offend and I certainly don't see this as an issue that should disrupt fellowship in any way. I love you tithers! And if you see something in my words that you think is legalistic in any way, please please tell me!

Ahem. So to Abraham. Joel touches on some of this in one of his posts but I want to talk about it a little more, mainly because it is one of the biggest arguments I've heard for New Covenant tithing. When I was first coming into grace, I was having a horrible time because financially it became impossible to tithe. Aaron never bothered much about that stuff, but I had a running tally in my head at all times of how much money we owed God and eventually it got to the point where I realized we would never be able to pay him back. Hahaha, it sounds so ridiculous now!

Anyway, as I said I was coming into grace so of course I was reading and reading Galatians and one day as I was doing this God just spoke to me: "replace circumcision with tithing and you have today's church". Wow!!! That was the end of it for me, I saw it clearly and ever since have been free from the bondage and constraint to give any particular amount of money to anyone at any time. Gone was the idea that part of my money really belonged to God, that I needed to give money to God in the first place etc., ect,... It's a crazy idea to think that giving money to a church or ministry is the same as giving money to God! All our giving is to other PEOPLE. It's more a matter of sharing if you ask me. If we see a brother in need of food or clothes, we share what we have with them. If we see the church needs money to get the good news out there, we see our pastor working hard to feed us spiritually, we share what we have!

Now, I've asked several pro-tithers who say "Abraham tithed out of faith 400 years before the law, therefore I tithe out of faith not under law"; so how is that different from circumcision? You see, in faith, Abraham was circumcised 400 years before the law. Actually, in faith, Abraham sacrificed animals, and was even going to sacrifice his own son, 400 YEARS BEFORE THE LAW. If I have faith should I also take my son up a mountain and lay him on an alter? I mean, Abraham did! So I find this line of logic extremely illogical.

Second point about Abraham: If this example of Abraham tithing was meant to be an example for new covenant believers to follow, why is it not taught ANYWHERE in the new testament??? In fact, Hebrews even refers to the story and still somehow the writer forgot the mention the very important fact that we should still be tithing! I gather that to mean that the point of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was NOT to show us that we should tithe. In fact Hebrews tells us why that account is in Scripture, and the point of it is the opposite of the tithing idea. So what's the point???



This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:1-10



The point, as we can see is the whole point of Hebrews as well, is that the new covenant with the new Great High Priest is completely superior to the old system. I think it is safe to say that in the context of Hebrews the point of recounting this story is NOT to teach us that there is still one little rule we should keep from the old covenant, that is, tithing.

So, what do I think is the real reason most people still preach tithing? Well, I do think many people honestly just believe this Abraham thing, but part of it is definately connected to unbelief. It would be very difficult for a leader of a church or ministry to switch gears part way through and start telling people they don't need to tithe. Why? Because they rely and trust in the people's tithe for financial provision, not in God himself. Oh, they think God has given them the tithing teaching for their provision, but I say God is able to put in people a true desire and joy to give without any kind of rule or regulation about how they should give! It's the same argument that legalists use against those preaching grace all the time! If we just tell them they don't have to they won't! It's a panic issue, a fear that is based in unbelief in the power of God to produce sons in the image of Jesus. Sons who will naturally be generous, really!

And as many of these preachers have noted, sometimes when we kick out the props of law from under people they will wobble and even fall around for a time. But then they will learn to stand on their new grace legs and will infinitely healthier and stronger for it in the end. So couldn't we believe God to carry us through that time financially?

So those are some of my main thoughts on it all...What do you think?


Chris Welch reply
The entire present church model is suspect and based largely on unbelief.

What on earth do I mean by that?Before answering, may I commend once again Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" which is only small but packs two or three main punches that will leave you reeling for a while...until you get as gripped with them as I am.

Church exists for only one main reason. To broadcast "the gospel of salvation and growth into Jesus according to the three growth stages of 1 John2". Local churches may have commissions, unique characteristics...but really their sole function is to get Jesus into folk and take back soul territory that the devil has nicked.

Traditional churches and charismatic churches seem to have dubious extras which maintain "it" for its own sake rather than for Jesus sake.And tithing can as Julie has stated just be one of these self-preservation mechanisms.

The unbelief mentioned above is a belief system that restricts "take back soul territory" to claiming scalps for the Kingdom, then keep them entertained in church until they die."
"take back soul territory" actually means everything below the scalp as well. That Christ become the all in all in us. And to quote Ern Baxter,"the gospel is THE power unto salvation. There is no THE-ER power." Jesus salvation is ultimate to our extremes.

And having a correct faith view means we have faith that a FULL Jesus gets to grow in each member of the church and therefore cannot remain as a static object...because now half its members have moved off to raise up other churches all over the globe...who again don't stop at the scalp stage....but see others through to the Father stage in 1 John 2.

In amongst this will be fulltime leaders, part time leaders,leaders in full employment, leaders tentmaking......all adopting the faith that Mueller pioneered...believing for the money to come in....any which way...because our God is sufficient.

Anyone reading my blog will know I have spent the best part of the month on Pyramids in churches...and one of the main maintenance techniques employed by pyramids is tithing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing
Goldhill Baptist Church ,Goldhill nr.Gerrards Cross and London UK have spent the best part of a year finding a replacement pastor. Still not found one.

Why is that relevant? Well I hail from one of three churches that were linked quite closely in the early days of the charismatic movement. Two Baptist and one Anglican.
But really they are all the same model, and I am calling this model 2nd level.
Most of the congregation are born again. A large number have had the experience of being baptized in the Spirit and in Goldhill's case enjoyed several decades of some of the best charismatic teachers on the circuit. First David Pawson, then Jimmy Graham , who, and this is rare, is content to have stepped down and just enjoys being part of the congregation. His son, a drummer plays on a couple of tracks on my CD.

So they are hunting another teacher/pastor I guess with a similar eloquence and ability to transfer spiritual Bible knowledge in clearly articulated left-brain format.

Well, pause there...and now read Dan's latest post on a SGM church in Newport.
What have you found?
Yup, that's right. It's the same model.

Now when I first read Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" I noted his main points, took the punches, was impressed.....but here's the thing.
You can always tell a significant book by the way it grows on your insides.

And I can tell you this, up until reading it, I had never seen the link he made between what was going on in the Corinthian Church and our present and almost universal structures.

And in the last month or so seen that connection grow to include this issue of tithing.

My friends, we are building pyramids and we are using tithing to fund our system.
Not only that, we are ONLY one short remove from the Catholic Church, and I never as an old Baptist boy, thought I would be writing that.

But it is so. Instead of a priest, we have crowned our pastor as head of the pyramid. This is as true of Rob Rufus and Terry Virgo, and lots of other really dedicated fine men, as it is anywhere else. And you know something? You won't find a scrap of Biblical precedent for this anywhere....save perhaps that James was the head honcho at Jerusalem. Bet you anything you like though, this was a practical function. It certainly did not include sole preaching rights....we have that spelled out clearly.

So as impressed as Dan may be with the quality of grace preaching at Newport, and as impressed as I am with Jimmy Graham's record and humility to still continue enjoying fellowship at Gold Hill I have to state this......

As God moves us onto the third level
You'd better not be thinking in pyramids
Because they are not there in the scriptures.
Pastors have usurped a role that just isn't there. Pastors are a gift to the church. They are also a certain character function. They tend the sheep. There are loads in one church! The church, a church , needs loads....

BUT NOWHERE
NOWHERE
NOWHERE
are they a CEO in a corporation!!!!

(In a singing voice) Pyramid, funded by tithing!!!

Great system but - NEW CART

2Samuel6:3

More shoulders needed, I'm sorry.