How Long Will We Remain Ignorant ? - Intellect

This is a post about Different types of Ignorance....

Wilful Ignorance. We chose it. And we choose to remain there. As Stubborn kids.
Well, just before writing this, I have made up my mind. If I sense some wilful ignorance going on in me, I want to be open to change, be open to more of God. So, fasten your seat belts. You wanted more of God too....you came to the right post.

The Meaning of Ignorance
n.) A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is their duty to have.
(n.) The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed.

The Brain is a big box and in some way which we may never understand , our spirit is somehow connected.
Throughout the Bible our component parts are described by these words. Mind.Heart.Spirit. Soul. Will. Then Jesus came along and spoke of us "having ears to hear" and "eyes to see" and clearly not meaning flappy head gear nor fleshy embedded baubles above our nose.

In the last post I made reference to the fact that PETscans, or brain scans show up the areas of our brain that register electrical activity when we are involved in certain activities.
Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs is a fascinating book charting all the neurological cases he has come across that relate to the field of music.
This clip relates to Amusia which is the rare condition of a brain that does not seem to have the ability to make any sense of music at all.


Some of you may be impatient at this point, asking yourselves why is this relevant to my life?Please hang in there.
In my piano showroom I get couples visiting and sometimes there will be one keen to learn piano, and the partner may possibly have an amusia condition, or something along that spectrum.They humour the other one by tagging along, but you know the whole exercise is meaningless to them. Sadly, they may be the main earner, so whereas they think nothing of spending £10,000 or more on water activities (Hayling Island-the birthplace of windsurfing remember) sadly, they will only pay £300 for a cheap secondhand upright piano with me.


Another alternate example. http://www.helenhiles.co.uk/ is a Christian artist who is a true Kingdom painter. She comes to our Key of David meetings and main conferences. She once confided that she cannot really listen to Peter Stott for a whole message because after a while she gets verbal overload. She finds if she paints or draws at the same time she is able to take on board what he is saying better. It was her work that was being demonstrated here.


So in discussing ignorance I am going to refer to many aspects of the brain.


The above two examples describe people who do not seem to have capabilities that the majority of us regard as normal. This is how they are. It is a condition. There can be no blame. Schools and education centres need to be increasingly aware that people are different. When it comes to learning, perhaps there is no true "normal", we are all so individual in our approaches.



This article is going to cover a more wilful ignorance. Having been shown there is more, we prefer to turn our head and stick with what we know. Stick within our comfort zone.


First of all the left-brain. Intellect.


Early Pentecostalism in the UK had a much greater effect than current TV historians Simon Sharma and David Starkey realise, spawning an Apostolic movement that preached into areas all over the globe.When I was in Kenya in December 1985 I was surprised how many incommunicable little places had their own Apostolic hut. The reason historians refer to Methodism and not Pentecostalism is that the latter was taken up primarily among the working classes and just does not register on a university radar. History is always shaped by the people in power, so at the moment, because the UK lives under the shadow of a restrictive form of left-brain thought shaped by the Enlightenment, nothing that falls outside of that remit is ever referred to.


In coming years we are going to be honouring a lot of things that have up until now been missed out altogether. This has already started with the Quaker movement, who , in typical God history style, were excluded from power effectively because no member was allowed in Cambridge or Oxford Universities. But instead of curling up and dying, they entered wholeheartedly into the modern 19th Century surge into industrialisation, only a lot of them took a specialised interest in chocolate. So it was we have Frys,Cadburys,the village of Bournville,and many many more. I call this God history, because it is the repeated story. "Left-brain locked" unbelievers exclude God's people, who then by their exclusion become stronger in God, coming up with something new that the rest of the world then comes to them for. This was the story of Joseph in the Old testament. This describes the whole history of the Jews, who have fulfilled scripture, and become a blessing to the whole earth, having rightly risen to prominance in every field of intellectual eminence.

Chenies Baptist church

Some of the largely untold stories in the UK would relate to other God movements such as Darbyism. Another story would be how all Baptist churches had to be built so many hundred feet set back from the road.
Old Town Baptist Church Amersham

So, get this England! Pompous Anglicans behaving like bastards (Bastards in that Anglicanism is a bastard form of the New Covenant, being neither fish nor fowl, neither Catholic nor Non Conformist, neither Jewish nor properly New Covenant) imperiously framed Baptists as Non Conformist, while themselves conducting the child abuse that is taking an ignorant baby and possibly against the child's later will, seeking to enter it into a New Covenant contract with God by the back door! In other words Infant Baptism. The irony is ofcourse that Infant Baptism is totally Non Conformist as far as God's expressed will is concerned. It does not conform to any New Testament scripture anywhere, neither in letter nor in spirit.

Scripture is clear. You repent, believe, then get baptised. One tiny verse which vaguely describes a jailer's household being baptised supports the entire edifice of sixteen hundred years practice.

Only intellects divorced from God's life could ever make such a ballsup of three simple phrases:Repent,believe,be baptised. And this is a good example of the intellect used "in its own right"....it starts building things that even its own rational evidence and rational process of thought construction won't even support. Which ofcourse has a very dark side to it....namely a very clever philosophical nation like Germany constructing a "logical" edifice that leads to efficiently murdering your own intelligentsia and musicians in its backyard gas ovens!!!


So back to the subject of intellect....

The charismatic movement initiated through Michael Harper here in the UK was a different matter from Pentecostalism. A much greater percentage of those involved were highly educated. You would have thought this was ideal. That David Pawson, David Watson, Jimmy Graham, sorry Dr. James Graham,Roger Price,Tony Morton,Arthur Wallis would have it all. That they would immediately have registered on the radar of university and media life here. But not a bit of it.


Here are two causes.

• The size of the Enlightenment giants in the land! The strength of the unbelieving left-brain hold over the BBC and universities.




• The fact that these ministries may have been mature intellectuals, that had experienced baptism in the Spirit, IS NOT THE SAME as mature third level ministries who move deeply in the Spirit of God as well as having clear penetrative insight intellectually. This would also be the case with RT Kendall who after many years of holding out against the charismatic movement while preaching in Westminster Chapel finally had the experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit himself. Another brilliant and eloquent teacher, he simply would not have had a clue how to run a second and third level type meeting. It was not in his training. Had he lived longer, he probably would have made it his priority. He only knew how to run meetings in first level format: A warmed up hymn sandwich!

My background is very similar to Watchman Nee's beginnings. I became terribly depressed after having achieved 11 A's in Dr Challoner's Grammar School at 12 and realising Intellectual Prowess didn't change a bleepin' thing. I still didn't like myself. I didn't gain any more love and affection from anybody. I think my teacher father was in the frame here too. God seemed terribly distant and unreal and early 70s Methodism seemed to be absolute rubbish. Neither belief nor complete unbelief....just a hopelessly confused denomination.

So after conversion and baptism in the Spirit I came to distrust intellectualism. I felt discarded by a Britain that only believed in the left-brain. But having read Watchman Nee's Normal Christian Life,Sit Walk Stand,Release of the Spirit,Song of Songs, I came to see early on that the intellect did have a place, but couldn't quite define how it fit into my new life in Christ.

Evangelicals and Pentecostals of the period largely shunned higher learning, probably because they saw many of their own entering university as Christians and leaving as educated unbelievers. This largely happened with my own first girlfriend. Although only a girlfriend for a while, she was present for all my Christian teen life, so I remember the utter shock that someone who had been deeply impacted by the corporate life of the Fisherfolk as I was, plus party to the tremendous "Key of David" forerunners in our Baptist Church....how could she then lose it all and marry a non-Christian? She has since come back to the Lord and been used in worship leading again.

So what then is the right use of the intellect?

http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-accurate-diagram-of-spiritsoulbody.html

The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing

To begin with have a look at Julie's post.
Ahhhh, the old tithing question, next to universal atonement, maybe one of the most hotly debated teachings among the grace crowd. For a broader view of the no-tithing side of the debate I highly recommend Joel's series over on Grace Roots. Also Bertie Brits has some great teaching available on his website Dynamic Love Ministries.

Why do I think it's important to talk about? Well, I think if I've learned anything from the many grace preachers and teachers out there, I've learned how serious it is to mix in law with grace, even if it is only the tiniest whiff of the tiniest drop of it. Of course I don't believe any of us will live in 100% pure grace while living in this broken down world, but I do think we can avoid hanging on to bits of the law mentality in obvious teachings and practices.

In fact, I don't think anyone has a good excuse to be teaching tithing (and I think I've probably heard most of the excuses) because I know people have been questioning those teaching tithing, even bringing in applicable Scripture ect... I know this because I personally know people who have done this, including myself. I don't want any 'have to's' mixed in with my good news! This does NOT mean that I don't love and appreciate and learn loads from grace teachers who teach some form of tithing. Some of my favorite grace preachers still hang on to it as far as I know--some in a very gracious way and some in a much more blatantly Old Covenant way.

One important reason to stop preaching tithing is it is VERY confusing to people coming into the revelation of New Covenant grace. I am often questioned about why grace preachers are still talking abbout tithing. In the mind of someone coming out of legalism, they hear the good news that they've been set free from ALL law and requirements in the New Covenant and start to feel new freedom, then they hear the same preacher tell them they must still tithe and confusion sets in. How many other requirements are they still bound to? Maybe the good news is not as good as it initially seemed? Maybe there is still some bondage in some areas? As one of my fellow gracers once commented to me on the subject, "I just don't feel released from tithing yet". So is tithing the one thing Jesus didn't release us from??? Do I need to feel released or believe I'm released?!?!

Let me just say again, I do not want to disrespect anyone who still believes in tithing in grace. I'm not trying to offend and I certainly don't see this as an issue that should disrupt fellowship in any way. I love you tithers! And if you see something in my words that you think is legalistic in any way, please please tell me!

Ahem. So to Abraham. Joel touches on some of this in one of his posts but I want to talk about it a little more, mainly because it is one of the biggest arguments I've heard for New Covenant tithing. When I was first coming into grace, I was having a horrible time because financially it became impossible to tithe. Aaron never bothered much about that stuff, but I had a running tally in my head at all times of how much money we owed God and eventually it got to the point where I realized we would never be able to pay him back. Hahaha, it sounds so ridiculous now!

Anyway, as I said I was coming into grace so of course I was reading and reading Galatians and one day as I was doing this God just spoke to me: "replace circumcision with tithing and you have today's church". Wow!!! That was the end of it for me, I saw it clearly and ever since have been free from the bondage and constraint to give any particular amount of money to anyone at any time. Gone was the idea that part of my money really belonged to God, that I needed to give money to God in the first place etc., ect,... It's a crazy idea to think that giving money to a church or ministry is the same as giving money to God! All our giving is to other PEOPLE. It's more a matter of sharing if you ask me. If we see a brother in need of food or clothes, we share what we have with them. If we see the church needs money to get the good news out there, we see our pastor working hard to feed us spiritually, we share what we have!

Now, I've asked several pro-tithers who say "Abraham tithed out of faith 400 years before the law, therefore I tithe out of faith not under law"; so how is that different from circumcision? You see, in faith, Abraham was circumcised 400 years before the law. Actually, in faith, Abraham sacrificed animals, and was even going to sacrifice his own son, 400 YEARS BEFORE THE LAW. If I have faith should I also take my son up a mountain and lay him on an alter? I mean, Abraham did! So I find this line of logic extremely illogical.

Second point about Abraham: If this example of Abraham tithing was meant to be an example for new covenant believers to follow, why is it not taught ANYWHERE in the new testament??? In fact, Hebrews even refers to the story and still somehow the writer forgot the mention the very important fact that we should still be tithing! I gather that to mean that the point of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was NOT to show us that we should tithe. In fact Hebrews tells us why that account is in Scripture, and the point of it is the opposite of the tithing idea. So what's the point???



This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:1-10



The point, as we can see is the whole point of Hebrews as well, is that the new covenant with the new Great High Priest is completely superior to the old system. I think it is safe to say that in the context of Hebrews the point of recounting this story is NOT to teach us that there is still one little rule we should keep from the old covenant, that is, tithing.

So, what do I think is the real reason most people still preach tithing? Well, I do think many people honestly just believe this Abraham thing, but part of it is definately connected to unbelief. It would be very difficult for a leader of a church or ministry to switch gears part way through and start telling people they don't need to tithe. Why? Because they rely and trust in the people's tithe for financial provision, not in God himself. Oh, they think God has given them the tithing teaching for their provision, but I say God is able to put in people a true desire and joy to give without any kind of rule or regulation about how they should give! It's the same argument that legalists use against those preaching grace all the time! If we just tell them they don't have to they won't! It's a panic issue, a fear that is based in unbelief in the power of God to produce sons in the image of Jesus. Sons who will naturally be generous, really!

And as many of these preachers have noted, sometimes when we kick out the props of law from under people they will wobble and even fall around for a time. But then they will learn to stand on their new grace legs and will infinitely healthier and stronger for it in the end. So couldn't we believe God to carry us through that time financially?

So those are some of my main thoughts on it all...What do you think?


Chris Welch reply
The entire present church model is suspect and based largely on unbelief.

What on earth do I mean by that?Before answering, may I commend once again Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" which is only small but packs two or three main punches that will leave you reeling for a while...until you get as gripped with them as I am.

Church exists for only one main reason. To broadcast "the gospel of salvation and growth into Jesus according to the three growth stages of 1 John2". Local churches may have commissions, unique characteristics...but really their sole function is to get Jesus into folk and take back soul territory that the devil has nicked.

Traditional churches and charismatic churches seem to have dubious extras which maintain "it" for its own sake rather than for Jesus sake.And tithing can as Julie has stated just be one of these self-preservation mechanisms.

The unbelief mentioned above is a belief system that restricts "take back soul territory" to claiming scalps for the Kingdom, then keep them entertained in church until they die."
"take back soul territory" actually means everything below the scalp as well. That Christ become the all in all in us. And to quote Ern Baxter,"the gospel is THE power unto salvation. There is no THE-ER power." Jesus salvation is ultimate to our extremes.

And having a correct faith view means we have faith that a FULL Jesus gets to grow in each member of the church and therefore cannot remain as a static object...because now half its members have moved off to raise up other churches all over the globe...who again don't stop at the scalp stage....but see others through to the Father stage in 1 John 2.

In amongst this will be fulltime leaders, part time leaders,leaders in full employment, leaders tentmaking......all adopting the faith that Mueller pioneered...believing for the money to come in....any which way...because our God is sufficient.

Anyone reading my blog will know I have spent the best part of the month on Pyramids in churches...and one of the main maintenance techniques employed by pyramids is tithing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing
Goldhill Baptist Church ,Goldhill nr.Gerrards Cross and London UK have spent the best part of a year finding a replacement pastor. Still not found one.

Why is that relevant? Well I hail from one of three churches that were linked quite closely in the early days of the charismatic movement. Two Baptist and one Anglican.
But really they are all the same model, and I am calling this model 2nd level.
Most of the congregation are born again. A large number have had the experience of being baptized in the Spirit and in Goldhill's case enjoyed several decades of some of the best charismatic teachers on the circuit. First David Pawson, then Jimmy Graham , who, and this is rare, is content to have stepped down and just enjoys being part of the congregation. His son, a drummer plays on a couple of tracks on my CD.

So they are hunting another teacher/pastor I guess with a similar eloquence and ability to transfer spiritual Bible knowledge in clearly articulated left-brain format.

Well, pause there...and now read Dan's latest post on a SGM church in Newport.
What have you found?
Yup, that's right. It's the same model.

Now when I first read Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" I noted his main points, took the punches, was impressed.....but here's the thing.
You can always tell a significant book by the way it grows on your insides.

And I can tell you this, up until reading it, I had never seen the link he made between what was going on in the Corinthian Church and our present and almost universal structures.

And in the last month or so seen that connection grow to include this issue of tithing.

My friends, we are building pyramids and we are using tithing to fund our system.
Not only that, we are ONLY one short remove from the Catholic Church, and I never as an old Baptist boy, thought I would be writing that.

But it is so. Instead of a priest, we have crowned our pastor as head of the pyramid. This is as true of Rob Rufus and Terry Virgo, and lots of other really dedicated fine men, as it is anywhere else. And you know something? You won't find a scrap of Biblical precedent for this anywhere....save perhaps that James was the head honcho at Jerusalem. Bet you anything you like though, this was a practical function. It certainly did not include sole preaching rights....we have that spelled out clearly.

So as impressed as Dan may be with the quality of grace preaching at Newport, and as impressed as I am with Jimmy Graham's record and humility to still continue enjoying fellowship at Gold Hill I have to state this......

As God moves us onto the third level
You'd better not be thinking in pyramids
Because they are not there in the scriptures.
Pastors have usurped a role that just isn't there. Pastors are a gift to the church. They are also a certain character function. They tend the sheep. There are loads in one church! The church, a church , needs loads....

BUT NOWHERE
NOWHERE
NOWHERE
are they a CEO in a corporation!!!!

(In a singing voice) Pyramid, funded by tithing!!!

Great system but - NEW CART

2Samuel6:3

More shoulders needed, I'm sorry.

We can reposition ourselves

If you want to learn more about repositioning yourself or your church I would recommend downloading this year's series of messages from Rob Rufus in Hong Kong: Invading the Impossible series, and Attitudes that attract the empowering grace of God.Here is something I wrote down earlier.


In 1986 the Spirit showed a picture of some natives in a jungle gazing skyward in awe at a metal bird. To us it is just a plane. The Spirit was saying "What is the difference between the natives and those who perhaps build the plane in America? Answer: 100 years of know-how in flight. He was saying in the same way, up until now we have been involved in praying in revivals, which have passed by us in a similar way, but never understood how or quite why. This remained a mystery. But now the Spirit wanted to take us into his confidence and give us know-how about what is really going on. The rest of this material can be found in Dan's Archives here the copy of my Letter to the Charismatic Movement 1990 posted 15th May2008.

The substance of all these blog posts comes from listening to God while tuning and driving. In the last few days I feel prompted to give some specific examples. Now in the old scheme of things, any negatives were condemnatory, sounded permanent and thus engendered dissensions and fierce battles in the Body of Christ.

Here's the good news! As in the passage above, while there still remain mysteries in God...these mysteries are not to be too mysterious. We are learning how to do stuff!!! We won't for ever and a day be a group of natives staring upward....we are being made co-workers with Christ. Co-sharers in His operations. What I call life in the order of Melchizedek ( see the post series).

You want another confirmatory verse?
"The knowledge of the glory of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea". That's the knowledge...the How to...the Spirit principles which allow us to open our hearts to God and make ourselves available to join in with His contemporary significant acts!!
Without getting too heavy about this point I do want to share a bit of 70s history. Then bring it up to date with some stuff a piano client was sharing. I knew she was a bit different when I saw Bill Johnson's book on her settee!

In 1970 Chorleywood had John Perry as minister. The AmershamOld Town Baptist Church had Eric Chambers. Goldhill Baptist nearby had David Pawson. These were all key figures in the early years of UK charismatic renewal in denominational churches. Now, unbeknown to most after all these years is this !!! All three met together regularly to pray and encourage each other. I believe some or all received input also from the nearby Slough Pentecostal pastor Billy Richards who later tragically died...in true stoic Pentecostal form...while believing God to heal his cancer.
All 3 leaders,Perry,Chambers, and Pawson moved on to other churches, but their works remain.

Here is the enigma. All 3 churches had access to the same stuff. All shared input from apostles/prophets/international ministries of the day. If anything...the Baptist churches were ahead on the born again front...as would be expected in those days.
So how is it that the only church anyone has heard of across Britain is Chorleywood?
Who brought in Graham Pulkingham and Body ministry, Juan Carlos Ortiz, then John Wimber in the 80s? Who founded Soul Survivor and New Wine...both conferences with national impact? Who helped HolyTrinityBrompton enable Alpha Courses, and encouraged the Toronto Blessing also with HTB?
Where were the other two churches in the national stakes? Who has even heard of them?

Well this is what my client shared. Apparently every single visiting ministry to Goldhill this year has said the same thing. God wants His church back! Now this is supernatural and should be an encouragement. He is about to move...so fasten your seatbelts guys!

My church was the Amersham Old Town Church,now Kings Church. And when I re-visited after 32 years I was disappointed. But the same will be true of them. God wants to move. He always wants to do more than we can ask or think. And the great news is we can position ourselves!!!