What IS God Doing?

 

Corinthian Elders by Jack Fortenberry - Prologue and Chapter 1

 

Index

Prologue ............................................................. page 5

A Painted Picture .............................................. page 8

Leading or Misleading ..................................... page 11

To Preach or Not to Preach .............................. page 18

Teaching One Another ..................................... page 25

Ecclesiastical Office ........................................... page 32

Consensus Governance .................................... page 39

Adding to God’s Word ..................................... page 46

The Money .......................................................... page 53

A Warning .......................................................... page 59

Complete in Christ ............................................ page 65

Should We Follow Paul’s Model ..................... page 71

Appendixes ........................................................ page 76

Recommended Sites .......................................... page 86

Author Bio .......................................................... page 87

Credits

Scripture taken from the New American Standard Bible ®, copyright ©

1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by the Lockman

Foundation used by permission.

When Greek words in this essay are defined, definitions come either from

New Analytical Greek Lexicon by Wesley J. Pershbacker copyright © 1990

from Hendrickson Publishers or New American Standard Exhaustive

Concordance copyright © 1981 from Holman Publishing.

Greek texts were taken either from Interlinear NIV Parallel New

Testament by Alfred Marshall copyright © 1976 from Zondervan

Publishing House or Greek to English Interlinear New King James

Version New Testament by George Ricker Berry copyright © 1981 Baker

Books from World Bible Publishers, Inc. There were no variances of

Greek texts in the above mentioned references pertaining to any of the

Greek words discussed in the following pages.

Underscores added to Scripture for emphasis were not part of the original

Scripture text.

Bridgepointe Publishing Company

1929 Spillway Road, Suite B

Brandon, MS 39047

Published 2008

Revised 2011

Library of Congress Control Number: 2009901013

ISBN 978-0-615-26282-6

ISBN 0-615-26282-1


Jack Fortenberry left his book as a free PDF for the Body of Christ, but it's getting quite hard to find.
So I feel to put up the whole book to remind everybody what the Bible actually says about ministry rather than what is practiced by ecclesiastical ministries , Pastor synagogues / evangelical churches, or charismatic pastor synagogues with worship bands.
Because it used to be easier to download I only put up Chapter one  before as a taster.
Here is the prologue and then a link to chapter one.

Prologue

The inhabits of earth said, let us make for ourselves a

name, Genesis 11:4, as they purposed and built the

Babylonian tower. But Jesus says, I am the vine, you are

the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears

much fruit.

The purpose of this essay is to encourage a biblical

examination of the role of Christian preacher and

teacher in order that we may enjoy the one-on-one

relationship with our Savior that He designed.

The absence of a New Testament model for the present

role of preachers or leaders has not slowed the

prevalence of the current model of one or two elders

leading a congregation of followers since the time of

Constantine. But Scripture warns us of being

defrauded of our prize by following leaders in the

church. Not just bad leaders but leaders.

By eliminating our use of a favorite teacher and turning

to New Testament commands in order to grow in the

knowledge of our Father, we will have an unobstructed

view of Christ. By our progress in understanding and

trusting the person and character of Jesus Christ, God

will grow us into conformity with His joy, holiness and

loving kindness.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the

glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image

Page 5

from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. II

Corinthians 3:18

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything

pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge

of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. II

Peter 1:3

Sometimes in zeal for sanctification and to find favor

with God my attention has been on teachings and

regimens of prayer or bible readings and even church

duties. But II Corinthians 3:18 and II Peter 1:3 tell us

that our transformation is being accomplished through

the revelation of the character of Christ. The character

of our Lord is revealed by the truths of Scripture and

also in the application of our knowing and trusting

Him. This is where I hope to stay.

I believe the result of this one-on-one relationship of

trusting and loving Jesus will then be evident in our joy

and fellowship with God’s children. The one who loves

his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for

stumbling in him. I John 2:10.

A Painted Picture - LINK

Nobody told me Jack had died

Jack Fortenberry

Ridgeland

Jasper Estes Fortenberry III, known as Jack, passed away on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 of natural causes at his home in Ridgeland. Visitation will be held on Friday, February 5, 2016 from 1-2 PM at Lakewood Memorial Park on Clinton Blvd. A graveside service will immediately follow at Lakewood Memorial Park.

Jack was born February 21, 1952 to the late, Jasper Estes and Addie Leigh Adams Fortenberry. He married Edi Stanton on November 13, 1982. He graduated from Mississippi College with a BS in accounting, was a Certified Public Accountant and managing shareholder at Fortenberry & Ballard, PC. Jack was a devoted member of a home church fellowship. Jack found peace in time spent playing his mandolin, practicing martial arts, scuba diving in the Pacific Rim, fishing from his reservoir home, and being with his loved ones.

He is survived by wife, Edi; daughters, Emily, Katie, Hope, & Lydia; granddaughters, Emma and Otis; brother, Kent; and sister, Jane; uncles, Bob and Don.

Please visit lakewoodfuneralhomes.com for online guestbook.



Published in Clarion Ledger on Feb. 4, 2016


WRITER OF CORINTHIAN ELDERSPDF available here

When this booklet came out I felt it was so important I did a series of 4 Youtubes to set it into context with what has been happening in the Church

Corinthian Elders Introduction Part One   The 60s until now

Corinthian Elders Part Two   The Melchizedek Order

Corinthian Elders Part Three -  Covenant Foundation and Love

Corinthian Elders Part Four -  The Father's Blessing

When Churches get money right (Jack Fortenberry)

What would the church look like if it served the Lord as Priests in the Melchizedek Order?

What would the church look like if it was supported alone by Christ's Life lived in and through her saints?

What would the church look like if it cut itself adrift from preaching some Law mixed in with the free gospel of Christ, and quit doing a dosey do with the Old Covenant practices of paid priests and tithing? Supposing everything did hang or fall on the idea of giving voluntarily according to Psalm 110

Your people give themselves freely in the Day of Your Power

A Painted Picture from the beginning of Corinthian Elders by Jack Fortenberry


It had been days since the missionaries left the makeshift airstrip and climbed through the jungle following the river upstream. Spirits on the team were controlled and resolute. Who could have foreseen the unfolding of history during the last twenty years? From closed communist communities in China and Cuba had come such a witness from God working within the hearts of believers that the entire world had taken notice.

First it was only a blip on the screen as Christian charity from these developing countries began to overshadow humanitarian aid from huge industrial economies as the United States. While denominations analyzed the phenomenon for clues, the surge continued from the change in the lives of those communist believers. The character of churches began to change all over the world.

Church goers, hungry for the Spirit and with hearts set on the Kingdom, had left their favorite pew in order to ‘be the church’ and not ‘go to church.’ Less and less were heard the words, ‘good sermon’, and more and more was the love of the brethren observed in local assemblies. Evangelism was occurring across backyard fences instead of from pulpits. Dots of small assemblies permeated neighborhoods, countries and continents in numbers amazing even to the believers themselves.

Where once denominational differences had absorbed time and expense, many differences simply did not arise as brothers in Christ focused on who Christ was, what He had done and what He was doing. Other differences were discussed circumspectly with open Bibles on kitchen and patio tables.

As pastors had reconsidered Scriptural teaching on the role of elders many moved to church planting missions. This caused evangelism with unreached people groups to explode. Some pastors had sought to serve politically or as teachers and the social landscape of every country had been affected.

Funds previously spent on maintenance of church buildings and church staffs were flooding into mission agencies and hospitals. When in past ages greed and selfish motives had been ascribed to the church, now giving and serving was seen so purely selfless not even detractors of the gospel could whisper against her.

Not that sin in the world had ceased; just the opposite. But the contrast caused the light of the gospel to shine even brighter. The influx of faithful men and resources had charged like an army into the darkness of all societies but especially unreached people groups who had never before, except from shadowy tribal legends, heard the special revelation that God had come to earth as a man, fellowshipped with us, suffered and died for our sins. From conversions of tribesmen had arisen tribal elders, deacons and evangelists who in turn knew of souls dispersed throughout the mountain jungles and previously unknown tribes were found for advancement of the Kingdom.

Was it possible we were closing in on all unreached people groups with the gospel?

Our mission team had departed from civilization knowing the martyrs that previously attempted to reach these souls. There was absolutely no evidence the outcome would be any different this time, but the team continued knowing in their heart the joy and peace of serving a loving Father.

The encounter with the tribe was sudden and completely unexpected. Hearts pounded as the interpreter explained the reason for the intrusion. Throughout the night discussions were held around outdoor fires; while around the globe prayers were offered. Then an all powerful God took pleasure in the salvation of His children.

Missionaries and tribesmen alike thought dawn was breaking on the mountain when they turned as one gasping at the beauty. Then they joined the rest of mankind in bowing every knee.

It's Not Going Away- the latest blog review of CE

This simplified post was done on my Blackberry
Grace Thorson is a qualified web designer. This is a link to her blog where she writes about Corinthian Elders -
http://thechristianscroll.blogspot.com/2010/07/enlightening-read-book-review-on.html


Corinthian Elders by Jack Fortenberry is a 92 page commentary. The book consists of a prologue and ten sections. At the end, I found an epilogue, appendixes, and a short list of recommended sites.

The writing is deep and the information is well-researched. Jack Fortenberry did a great job of presenting it. He translates words from the New Testament into the Greek meaning. He brought to light entirely new ideas for me. It made me re-think the church and how it should look today. Not many books strike my interest like this. I had to share my new found knowledge with my mom and, in turn, I sparked her interest in reading this book. Corinthian Elders truly changed my outlook on what the church should really be about. It’s not a building; it’s not our leaders. Instead we should focus on Jesus and really fellowship with our brothers and sisters.

I recommend Corinthian Elders to readers who are interested in the church, and the roles we should have in it. I think that this book would make for an interesting Bible study for men and women. It’s enlightening, but it might not be for everyone; like I said, it digs deep. A really interesting book!

God bless!
~Grace

Posted by Grace at 2:10 PM ⁠

The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing

To begin with have a look at Julie's post.
Ahhhh, the old tithing question, next to universal atonement, maybe one of the most hotly debated teachings among the grace crowd. For a broader view of the no-tithing side of the debate I highly recommend Joel's series over on Grace Roots. Also Bertie Brits has some great teaching available on his website Dynamic Love Ministries.

Why do I think it's important to talk about? Well, I think if I've learned anything from the many grace preachers and teachers out there, I've learned how serious it is to mix in law with grace, even if it is only the tiniest whiff of the tiniest drop of it. Of course I don't believe any of us will live in 100% pure grace while living in this broken down world, but I do think we can avoid hanging on to bits of the law mentality in obvious teachings and practices.

In fact, I don't think anyone has a good excuse to be teaching tithing (and I think I've probably heard most of the excuses) because I know people have been questioning those teaching tithing, even bringing in applicable Scripture ect... I know this because I personally know people who have done this, including myself. I don't want any 'have to's' mixed in with my good news! This does NOT mean that I don't love and appreciate and learn loads from grace teachers who teach some form of tithing. Some of my favorite grace preachers still hang on to it as far as I know--some in a very gracious way and some in a much more blatantly Old Covenant way.

One important reason to stop preaching tithing is it is VERY confusing to people coming into the revelation of New Covenant grace. I am often questioned about why grace preachers are still talking abbout tithing. In the mind of someone coming out of legalism, they hear the good news that they've been set free from ALL law and requirements in the New Covenant and start to feel new freedom, then they hear the same preacher tell them they must still tithe and confusion sets in. How many other requirements are they still bound to? Maybe the good news is not as good as it initially seemed? Maybe there is still some bondage in some areas? As one of my fellow gracers once commented to me on the subject, "I just don't feel released from tithing yet". So is tithing the one thing Jesus didn't release us from??? Do I need to feel released or believe I'm released?!?!

Let me just say again, I do not want to disrespect anyone who still believes in tithing in grace. I'm not trying to offend and I certainly don't see this as an issue that should disrupt fellowship in any way. I love you tithers! And if you see something in my words that you think is legalistic in any way, please please tell me!

Ahem. So to Abraham. Joel touches on some of this in one of his posts but I want to talk about it a little more, mainly because it is one of the biggest arguments I've heard for New Covenant tithing. When I was first coming into grace, I was having a horrible time because financially it became impossible to tithe. Aaron never bothered much about that stuff, but I had a running tally in my head at all times of how much money we owed God and eventually it got to the point where I realized we would never be able to pay him back. Hahaha, it sounds so ridiculous now!

Anyway, as I said I was coming into grace so of course I was reading and reading Galatians and one day as I was doing this God just spoke to me: "replace circumcision with tithing and you have today's church". Wow!!! That was the end of it for me, I saw it clearly and ever since have been free from the bondage and constraint to give any particular amount of money to anyone at any time. Gone was the idea that part of my money really belonged to God, that I needed to give money to God in the first place etc., ect,... It's a crazy idea to think that giving money to a church or ministry is the same as giving money to God! All our giving is to other PEOPLE. It's more a matter of sharing if you ask me. If we see a brother in need of food or clothes, we share what we have with them. If we see the church needs money to get the good news out there, we see our pastor working hard to feed us spiritually, we share what we have!

Now, I've asked several pro-tithers who say "Abraham tithed out of faith 400 years before the law, therefore I tithe out of faith not under law"; so how is that different from circumcision? You see, in faith, Abraham was circumcised 400 years before the law. Actually, in faith, Abraham sacrificed animals, and was even going to sacrifice his own son, 400 YEARS BEFORE THE LAW. If I have faith should I also take my son up a mountain and lay him on an alter? I mean, Abraham did! So I find this line of logic extremely illogical.

Second point about Abraham: If this example of Abraham tithing was meant to be an example for new covenant believers to follow, why is it not taught ANYWHERE in the new testament??? In fact, Hebrews even refers to the story and still somehow the writer forgot the mention the very important fact that we should still be tithing! I gather that to mean that the point of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was NOT to show us that we should tithe. In fact Hebrews tells us why that account is in Scripture, and the point of it is the opposite of the tithing idea. So what's the point???



This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:1-10



The point, as we can see is the whole point of Hebrews as well, is that the new covenant with the new Great High Priest is completely superior to the old system. I think it is safe to say that in the context of Hebrews the point of recounting this story is NOT to teach us that there is still one little rule we should keep from the old covenant, that is, tithing.

So, what do I think is the real reason most people still preach tithing? Well, I do think many people honestly just believe this Abraham thing, but part of it is definately connected to unbelief. It would be very difficult for a leader of a church or ministry to switch gears part way through and start telling people they don't need to tithe. Why? Because they rely and trust in the people's tithe for financial provision, not in God himself. Oh, they think God has given them the tithing teaching for their provision, but I say God is able to put in people a true desire and joy to give without any kind of rule or regulation about how they should give! It's the same argument that legalists use against those preaching grace all the time! If we just tell them they don't have to they won't! It's a panic issue, a fear that is based in unbelief in the power of God to produce sons in the image of Jesus. Sons who will naturally be generous, really!

And as many of these preachers have noted, sometimes when we kick out the props of law from under people they will wobble and even fall around for a time. But then they will learn to stand on their new grace legs and will infinitely healthier and stronger for it in the end. So couldn't we believe God to carry us through that time financially?

So those are some of my main thoughts on it all...What do you think?


Chris Welch reply
The entire present church model is suspect and based largely on unbelief.

What on earth do I mean by that?Before answering, may I commend once again Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" which is only small but packs two or three main punches that will leave you reeling for a while...until you get as gripped with them as I am.

Church exists for only one main reason. To broadcast "the gospel of salvation and growth into Jesus according to the three growth stages of 1 John2". Local churches may have commissions, unique characteristics...but really their sole function is to get Jesus into folk and take back soul territory that the devil has nicked.

Traditional churches and charismatic churches seem to have dubious extras which maintain "it" for its own sake rather than for Jesus sake.And tithing can as Julie has stated just be one of these self-preservation mechanisms.

The unbelief mentioned above is a belief system that restricts "take back soul territory" to claiming scalps for the Kingdom, then keep them entertained in church until they die."
"take back soul territory" actually means everything below the scalp as well. That Christ become the all in all in us. And to quote Ern Baxter,"the gospel is THE power unto salvation. There is no THE-ER power." Jesus salvation is ultimate to our extremes.

And having a correct faith view means we have faith that a FULL Jesus gets to grow in each member of the church and therefore cannot remain as a static object...because now half its members have moved off to raise up other churches all over the globe...who again don't stop at the scalp stage....but see others through to the Father stage in 1 John 2.

In amongst this will be fulltime leaders, part time leaders,leaders in full employment, leaders tentmaking......all adopting the faith that Mueller pioneered...believing for the money to come in....any which way...because our God is sufficient.

Anyone reading my blog will know I have spent the best part of the month on Pyramids in churches...and one of the main maintenance techniques employed by pyramids is tithing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Pastor Pyramid and Tithing
Goldhill Baptist Church ,Goldhill nr.Gerrards Cross and London UK have spent the best part of a year finding a replacement pastor. Still not found one.

Why is that relevant? Well I hail from one of three churches that were linked quite closely in the early days of the charismatic movement. Two Baptist and one Anglican.
But really they are all the same model, and I am calling this model 2nd level.
Most of the congregation are born again. A large number have had the experience of being baptized in the Spirit and in Goldhill's case enjoyed several decades of some of the best charismatic teachers on the circuit. First David Pawson, then Jimmy Graham , who, and this is rare, is content to have stepped down and just enjoys being part of the congregation. His son, a drummer plays on a couple of tracks on my CD.

So they are hunting another teacher/pastor I guess with a similar eloquence and ability to transfer spiritual Bible knowledge in clearly articulated left-brain format.

Well, pause there...and now read Dan's latest post on a SGM church in Newport.
What have you found?
Yup, that's right. It's the same model.

Now when I first read Jack Fortenberry's book "Corinthian Elders" I noted his main points, took the punches, was impressed.....but here's the thing.
You can always tell a significant book by the way it grows on your insides.

And I can tell you this, up until reading it, I had never seen the link he made between what was going on in the Corinthian Church and our present and almost universal structures.

And in the last month or so seen that connection grow to include this issue of tithing.

My friends, we are building pyramids and we are using tithing to fund our system.
Not only that, we are ONLY one short remove from the Catholic Church, and I never as an old Baptist boy, thought I would be writing that.

But it is so. Instead of a priest, we have crowned our pastor as head of the pyramid. This is as true of Rob Rufus and Terry Virgo, and lots of other really dedicated fine men, as it is anywhere else. And you know something? You won't find a scrap of Biblical precedent for this anywhere....save perhaps that James was the head honcho at Jerusalem. Bet you anything you like though, this was a practical function. It certainly did not include sole preaching rights....we have that spelled out clearly.

So as impressed as Dan may be with the quality of grace preaching at Newport, and as impressed as I am with Jimmy Graham's record and humility to still continue enjoying fellowship at Gold Hill I have to state this......

As God moves us onto the third level
You'd better not be thinking in pyramids
Because they are not there in the scriptures.
Pastors have usurped a role that just isn't there. Pastors are a gift to the church. They are also a certain character function. They tend the sheep. There are loads in one church! The church, a church , needs loads....

BUT NOWHERE
NOWHERE
NOWHERE
are they a CEO in a corporation!!!!

(In a singing voice) Pyramid, funded by tithing!!!

Great system but - NEW CART

2Samuel6:3

More shoulders needed, I'm sorry.

A timely letter to my Ghanaian Evangelist friend

"Name"
The money has been dispatched.
Thankyou for phoning in such a timely fashion.

It is important that you hold to all the Word that God has been building into you.
It is important that you continue to wait on the Holy Spirit when you gather with others,
knowing the importance of entering God's Presence with taking time over ministering to Him first,
then delivering the Word out of that Presence.

These are all key foundations that already mark you out among others.

When believers see differences the devil will always want to maximise these and seek to divide,
and also make all discussion " either or"
-either you accept all of this and reject everything you know so far.....that is his tactic.He is a liar
and not to be trusted.

With God it is always Yea and Amen and "Both ....and" ...."not either ...or."

So the above Spirit foundations I support in you.

http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/order-of-hoy-spirit.html explores some of
the main differences in the order of the Holy Spirit, to the traditional one man ministry
approach of the Pentecostal minister in the last 100 years.

Real transfer of God's life is so powerful when we do things God's way, that you get people
like Paul who were powerful enough to turn whole regions upside down.

At the moment working on 2/3 of the gospel, that is "asking Jesus into your life"
and "being baptised in the Spirit" it is exhausting. For every Morris Cerullo crusade
and Rheinhardt Bonnke crusade and Benny Hinn crusade you get
people stunned by God's miraculous power, you get people saved and filled with
the Spirit
but really poor teaching on Romans 1-8 and Ephesians and Colossians.
People do not know they have died.
People think they have to "do" things to grow as a Christian, instead of knowing
actually "they" don't have to do anything ever again. They are dead. And dead people
don't do anything. It is now purely about Christ doing stuff through them.

And if nothing much happens. The answer is not another Morris Cerullo chivvying meeting
to get them fired up again, the answer is laying another "gift of revelation" in them as to
how Christ is now their life.

The "leaven of the Kingdom" is so powerful that 2 birthing 2 birthing 2 and so on just 20
times already comes to 1,048,576.

The reason evangelists get tired out ,asking for more and more money is they
do not birth Christians into real Spirit churches
so anybody that DID ask Jesus into his life has just been bewitched by a Galation church
back into believing you have to "do things". Jesus PLUS something is the gospel.
NO....in the Spirit....as soon as you say Jesus Plus circumcision....you break the electrical
circuit. The believer becomes still-born. He never grows. He never becomes Christ in his form,
so he or she cannot reproduce Christ. They are the very thing that Christ condemned
"You travel a hundred miles to make a convert, and you make him twice the son of hell that you are."

The Pentecostal model is crazy. You have a Pastor in charge of a church, in a similar way
to the Jews who had a high priest.
This is the model of the New Cart.
This is the African Village Elder New Cart model with a Pentecostal badge.
Like Matthew Ashimolowo. Or the Action pastor.

This is not in the Bible.
The Church has elders who know about Christ being their life and the heavenly
realities of how things work....like faith....like praise.....like using spiritual gifts...

which they impart into others as quickly as possible. All the spiritual gifts
and ministries flow together as the Spirit moves.

But a black African in tie and smart jacket ruling over a congregation as
a man in charge, calling himself a pastor comes straight out of the kingdoms of this world.

Similar with black apostles. What they mean by apostle is the
organizing ability to arrange for large gatherings of people to hear
them speak exciting stuff and see them perform a few miracles as the star showman.
This is not an apostle. Even Stephen in the New testament could do much of this.But he knew better.

(Understand the white man is even less developed....not even understanding baptism in the Spirit
and just having a purely human organisation....so even more like a devil pyramid builder!!)

If you can imagine two direction arrows diverging ever wider apart, that is now how things are in the Kingdom.
The 2nd level Ishmael model of a Spirit-filled church which in reality is a bunch of genuine Spirit-filled people
being manipulated Ishmael style into "the outward appearance of a church",

as compared with the 3rd level model of a church of mature believers who understand the apostles'
revelation in the Bible, who are mature in their own right....either going out to form new churches
in the pure grace of God, or exercising greater and greater rule in their localities in their jobs,
their surroundings......but all as a "genuine Isaac - the child of Promise" and not a manipulation
from one man, seeking to look good by having a lot of people beneath him in a pyramid.


I realise this probably comes as a shock to you, "Name". But having been prepared for years
in a hidden way, I'd hate for you to lose everything by being a Morris Cerullo ministry when everything has moved
on, with groups of apostles now ministering together like in the days of Acts.

If you cannot get to places of revival like IHOP Kansas which is happening right now,
I'd love you to start getting a revelation of this new way of operating....which is like you
do already....but instead of being just you, there is a whole room of people behaving just like you.
Maybe they haven't got the evangelistic gifting you have,and they actually need you for that,
but they have lots of things you don't yet have. The next Key of David Conference
is March 18th -20th http://www.portsdowncc.org.uk/news.htm

Blessings
Chris

Facebook conversation today with Sarah Culverhouse

In Emsworth Church we used to have some dynasties who were legends in their own lunchtime.One such dynasty were the Dale family. Now Anna went off to study in London in the early 80s, and shared a flat with Sarah Culverhouse, who has just filled me in on this via Facebook, and Maeve.
-----------------
Thanks for being honest! We have been through a dreadful year financially...which has spurred Christine to do what she has had on her heart for a while...train to be a nurse. She was working for me. This Access year is unpaid so we're teetering on my income. Have been quite encouraged today and yesterday by work coming in. Feeling pretty gutted about Nigel Waterfield dying on Sunday am, since we were enjoying a day out round Portsmouthwith him and Elaine the other day. Going up to his funeral next Tuesday in Leicester was unseen.Let's keep things on hold and see what turns up.
How are you about revivals when they break out? We are keeping our eye on IHOP, or International House of prayer, Kansas.

I think when I was in Bible House, (for all the gripes....and Maeve, friend of Sarah,also the one who led Bono to the Lord,came to visit our church in Emsworth occasionally) I learned there were three or four sides to life, and various of us had trouble with one or the other sides. There's work. There's study. There's worship and there's family day to day fun stuff. The more people broke through on their issues, and bondages....by walking things out by faith...the more they were able to function in all areas. To start with several of the girls were cutting themselves. At least 2 of us were almost totally intellectual...and absolutely no earthly use whatever.

I just think that Organic church is filling in the bits that your average charismatic warehouse, as I call them, missed.

You'll know from Maranatha Ministry days(London early 80s), that you have your charismatic flash harry leading it, then you have a worship band, then you have the plebs, sitting backed up in the bleachers. Sound familiar? Emsworth tried to be different....but we didn't know the stuff in Jack Fortenberry's book:Corinthian Elders. Nor did we know Norman Grubb's insights on no independant self. And wherever independent self is still believed in, leaders always gravitate back to pyramid leadership by default. Since that is the rock from which we were hewn since genesis 3...and before knowing Christ.

The Body of Christ is something totally different. It's a vision. It's a revelation. No man runs it, but people have anointings empowering them to give certain inputs. But the old idea of some apostle being at the top of a giant pyramid is simply stupid....and if you watch in the Spirit...things don't work that way.The people on facebook (Sylvia Pearce,Merrill Thompson,Brian Coatney(usesTandy's entry),Nancy Gilmore,Barbara and Alan Rogerson, who have walked this way for decades sometimes use the 3rd level jargon, or father ministries as in 1 John, or just say "mature". You can see from the blog I am making a particular point of saying 3rd level, because I am convinced the charismatic world we have known is 2nd level.

In the charismatic world, you just had to be baptised in a strong Holy Spirit gifting,know how to get others baptised in the spirit, have the gift of organization, get a worship band together and a bit of prayer, believe for a warehouse, or school hall, and you were an apostle.The Bible however makes it plain that the apostle or 3rd level ministries are those who can reproduce Christ in other people. Period.Not lead them to the Lord.That's understood. Not get them baptised in the Spirit. That's understood. Christine and I were doing that when we were 13 in our respective areas, before we knew each other.Nope. 3rd levellers reproduce Christ in other people.

I personally feel there are two sides to it. 1. Meetings. The gathering together of God's saints is absolutely unique....and when they really are gathering unto Him it's an awesome room to be in. 2. Teaching the New testament as the early 3rd levellers knew it. And not changing the bits we don't like. Not sure where that leaves us about headscarves.....but all the rest of Romans Ephesians and Colossians has to be preached as it was originally revealed...and not made into a religion of works. It concerns how Jesus Christ lives His life by us!!!! Not just how He does meetings by us.

Jesus Wants His Church Back

He is grateful for those who have sat on the Church and kept His Seat warm.....

But now He wants His chair back thankyou!

What does a Church run by Jesus look like? Jack Fortenberry looks at what the New Testament has to say in "Corinthian Elders".

Here are some introductory videos inspired by the contents of the book.

******************************
Introduction to Corinthian Elders Part One_History
A look back at some of the things that have happened since the charismatic movement started.



An Introduction to Corinthian Elders Part Two: The Melchizedek Order
Learn about the true weird and wonderful nature of how the Church operates



An Introduction to Corinthian Elders Part Three : Covenant Love and The Body of Christ
Learn how there really is no other way for the Body of Christ.But conversely it is Christ who does the loving!!!!


Introduction to Corinthian Elders Part Four:The Father's Blessing
Follows straight after Part Three, with a pause in between at the start of this video.

For more details email 07000intune@googlemail.com

Corinthian Elders Set in Context - Part One - A history of some of the Melchizedek Order since the 1960s

The contents of this post have been removed to make file storage room
for the new reworked animations introducing :

The New Book by Jack Fortenberry: Corinthian Elders

A link will be posted from here to the new post when the four animations are fully uploaded.

A Study on The Three Levels of Maturity - Sylvia Pearce,It's original context and its current local church context

My thanks go to Merrill Thompson who has stored all these excerpts over years. This is his Facebook profile if people want more material, and this is how the container looks now.

Below is an MS DOS version, or rather dry left-brain code of the three levels of maturity. By that I mean, the Windows version is to be us! We are the Living letters that Paul writes about in 2 Corinthians 3 This is not to be disparaging about the format below. As we meditate on it it is actually packed with life.

Jesus said the time would come when we would worship "neither on this mountain nor at Jerusalem" . He then went onto say "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Here is an amazing thing when you think about the 3 years Jesus was with His disciples.
Jesus had laid His glory aside. He was functioning purely as we are meant to function. In His case as a container for the Life of the Father within Him. He had also been baptised in the Spirit when He was water baptised. But his disciples were not born again. Not as we know it now. He had not yet breathed His life into them. This could only happen after His body death at Calvary. And the disciples had certainly not yet been baptised with the Spirit. This happened to them some ten days after Jesus returned to His Father at His ascension, to be an exact prophetic fulfilment of the Jewish Feast of Pentecost : The First harvest.

Now Jesus was permitted to endow the disciples with a certain measure of the power of the Holy Spirit that was upon Him. With this power they were sent out to heal, perform miracles and proclaim that the Kingdom had come!
Yet , other than this, Jesus was transplanting His life into his twelve disciples by the power of the Word alone. He did not sit down and read books to them. They did not have His indwelling life that came later. They had received no overpowering release of the Spirit upon them in the form of a baptism in the Spirit experience, which is the believer's rightful due now since Acts 2. It is the Father's good pleasure to give you His Spirit without measure. And just pray that your body container can stand it!!!!
Yet during these three years....none of this. But just by living with Jesus. By His Spirit -filled Word alone penetrating their being, in the form of stories, in the form of timely rebuke, in the form of encouragement, in the form of being eyewitnesses to extraordinary miracles, in the form of learning Jesus pace of life in the Holy Spirit.Also, and this is not talked about much in Zerubbabel quarters, Hebrews 5:7, 7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered.....

He did not get a soft ride. Because He was the Son.
So , how "grace" people expect to glide into this grace walk as though it is a matter of believing yourself into a few scriptures.And that's it.
John Clarke (The Move) described it like this: "Some days will find you doubled up on the floor in agony. It is like the verse in Revelation which talks about the Word being sweet to the taste when you first hear it, but round about the time it settles on your stomach, it becomes a bitter thing, as the literal Word of God takes hold of your insides and changes you from within out."
Not for nothing the references to the labour of childbirth in scriptures.

This is the birth of the New Covenant in His people.

Beforehand you sing songs about it.

You talk about it in meetings,

You use the phrase in the Lord's Supper. "This is the blood
of my new Covenant."

But one day...it has been written in you. Across your insides.

And you become a living letter to others.
If Jesus then, within three years, by obeying the exact instructions of the Father, by just speaking Word, could move twelve men spiritually from child stage, through young man stage to Fatherhood stage, as expressed in Acts.....

Now the Holy Spirit has been outpoured

Now a peculiar vessel for the maturation of individuals has been birthed :The Living breathing Corporate Body of Christ-


How is it people are still taking 70 years to go through the growth stages?
Well. The meaning of the word "Satan " is opposer.

Satan is opposing the birth of this Manchild in the earth.

This corporate expression of Living letters.

Churches neither know the three stages. Or if they know it, it is mere head knowledge.
It's like reading this wonderful teaching script below....which is the legal language of all our inheritance in the Kingdom.....but it only then remains stored in the left-brain.
We have to eat it. Preferably along with the rest of the local family.
Here is some more on the functioning of the local New Covenant Church.
Chances are, many of you have not been able to experience this so far.

It's not taught in seminaries.
It's not clearly taught by powerful ministries like Morris Cerullo.
It's not taught clearly in Pentecostal churches.
Although denominational churches are starting along the path, having taken on board the Alpha courses, chances are they are not mature in this yet.
This is learned in the Spirit. In relationship with Jesus. Who ,by the way, is still alive! And is currently teaching those who will listen, all over the world, how He wants church done.

The importance of Corinthian Elders by Jack Fortenberry is that how we do leadership is totally rewritten. I used the phrase earlier "glided into". Well instead of gliding into Spirit stuff regarding leadership, all we've succeeded in doing is "gliding into" human tradition, human hand me downs
of what it is to lead. Most of this comes straight out of a skewed pyramid understanding of authority, which comes from the Fall.
Neither is it anarchy!
No leadership in the Kingdom is primarily relationship.
In just the same way that our first experience of it, for good and bad....came through our parents. And just as a good parent is after the maturation of their kids, such that they can go off and run successful independent lives, and pass this onto their kids.....this is actually the Kingdom way of reproducing Christ's Life in our form.



It is no coincidence that coupled with a new wave of the revelation of the Father, which came through what was popularised as the Toronto Blessing in 1994 through the Airport Vineyard Church, but what was always from the Kingdom perspective what it said on the tin :"The Father's Blessing"....well it is no coincidence that coupled with this revelation comes a totally but totally new perspective on how leadership works in the Kingdom. I would firmly counsel everybody to get this book. And no. There is stuff in this book that you will have heard from no one else. So, leadership covered, I want to give a potted version of the local church.
There is transformational power in the local church.

• When working properly, people will be laying the foundations of our new life listed in Sylvia's study below.
• The church will know how to enter the Living Presence of God in their worship. More and more of the congregation will be knowing the secrets of how you live there anyway.
• Learning how you enter a real experience of the Holiest Place together...how to respond to the Holy Spirit as a gathering as He takes you all still deeper (recent examples The New York meetings with Heidi Baker, The Key of David meetings here in Havant, many soaking meetings all over the world
• All the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be increasingly manifest, through the youngest believer to the most mature. Greater care, and love and respect will actually be invested on the younger members, as Paul writes in his Corinthian letter.
• Regular breakthoughs manifest in believer's lives
• The quickest way to learn how to function from the new Life within you
• All believers regularly prophesying and praying into other believer's lives
• A place where you can bring unbelievers who are hungry
• The Body knows how to bring itself forth. The Holy Spirit directs what needs addressing ,when, in a spirit of love, humility, and godly grace authority
• caring for one another's practical needs
• addressing local problems and needs, but not from a basis of those needs - that is humanitarianism - but based on the timing ,instruction and Word of the Lord.
• a place of training of the Authority of the believer. (testimony of prophetic faith declarations which resolved issues within hours/days months - the exposure of the Yorkshire Ripper (hours), the healing of Tony Fitgerald's wife 50 miles away in a hospital bed(same instant), the healing of an all but paralysed girl in the church such that she married and went to Barcelona to live (months), the healing of a son, then his father of a strain of leukaemia(weeks)
• learning how to be Christ to each other
• learning 3rd level laying down of your life to bring forth life in others.
• learning how to call on the Lord together. (See Hebrews 5:7 above)We learned much from the Argentinians who had been battle hardened in the many and various extreme financial recessions through the last decades in Argentina
• learn what it is when the tangible Presence of the glory falls. To rest still in this Presence for minutes /hours together. In the gospels we have examples when a particular Presence came down. For example the phrase"the Lord's Presence was there to heal"

If your local church is not like this, this is our birthright, and we are to give the Lord no rest until this pattern is everywhere in the earth. THIS IS NORMALITY for the believer.

The Three Levels of Maturity
Sylvia Pearce
I John 2:12-14
Little Children
“ I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name sake.”
“ I write unto you, little children, because you have known the Father.”
Why do we need our sins forgiven? And how can we know the Father?
The Fall Of Man.
Gen 3:1-15
Result Of The fall:
John 3:19-21-“Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light.”
Romans 3:10-18-“There is none good, no not one.”
Eph. 2:1-3 “Dead in trespasses and sins,” “the spirit that works in the children of disobedience” and “they were by nature children of wrath.”
Acts 13:46-“Judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life.”
I John 3:10-“Children of the devil.”
John 8:44- “you are of your father the devil.”
Rom. 6:17-“Slaves of sin.”
I Peter 3:19-“Spirits in prison.”
Romans 9:23-“Vessels of wrath.”
Romans 5:12-“Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
The Provision For Our Sins Through Christ’s Subsitutionary Death.
John 3:16-“For God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten Son.”
II Cor. 5:19-“To wit, that God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself.”
Col. 1:14-“Through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”
Romans 3:24-25-“Justified freely by his grace, through faith in his blood.”
I Peter 1:18-20-“Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.”
Heb. 10:12-“One sacrifice for sins forever.”
How is Christ Made Mine?
John 1:12-“As many as receive Him to them gave he power to become the sons of God.”
Acts 16:31-“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.”
Titus 3:15-“Not by works of righteousness which I have done but according His mercy He saved me.”
Romans 3:24-“Being justified freely by His grace through Christ’s redemption.”
Romans 3:28-“A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Eph. 2:8-9-“For by grace you are saved, through faith.”
Romans 10:9-“Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart, you shall be saved.”
How Can I Have The Assurance Of My Salvation?
Hebrews 4:9-10-“There remains a rest, labor to enter in.”
Hebrews 11:6-“For without faith it is impossible to please God.”
The Three Levels of Maturity
I John 2:12-14
Young Men
“I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.”
“I have written unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.”
How do we overcome the wicked one? Our sins are forgiven, but how about victory over sin, Satan, the works of the flesh, and the world?
Victory And Power In Daily Living
Romans 5:10-We are reconciled to God, by His death, but saved daily by His life.
Eph. 3:19-“That you might be filled with all the fullness of God.”
I Cor. 2:10-“That we might know the deep things of God.”
Eph. 1:18-“That you might know the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.”
II Cor 9:8-“God makes all grace abound towards you that we might have all sufficiency in all things.”
The Provision For Daily Living Is Through The Body Death Of The Cross
Romans 6:6-“The old man is crucified with Christ.”
Galatians 2:20-“I am crucified with Christ, I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.”
II Cor. 5:21-“Christ was made sin, that we might be made His righteousness.”
Romans 6:2-“We are dead to sin.”
Colossians. 2:11-“We are circumcised with Christ, putting off the body of sins.”
Romans 6:3-“We are baptized into His death.”
2 Peter 8:1-“We are partakers of the divine nature.”
Colossians 1:22-“In the body of His flesh to present you holy, and unblameable.”
Hebrews 10:10-“We are sanctified through offering of the body of Christ.”
Hebrews 10:14-“By one offering He hath perfected forever them who are sanctified.”
The Law, Not Sin, The Problem
Romans 7:4-“You also have become dead to the law by the body of Christ.”
Romans 6:7-“He that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:14-“Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are under grace.”
I Cor. 15:56-“The power of sin is the law.”
How Does This Work Out As Our Experience?
Romans 7:15-“For that which I do I allow not: for what I would that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.”
Romans 7:24-“O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Why Do We Experience the Bondages and Defeats of Romans 7?
Because not having completely learned, or easily forgetting, the basic helplessness of self, and its only function to be the container of the Spirit, we are constantly assaulted by temptation to be something or do something or not do something. Obey those commands pray more, give more witness more, be more patient, don’t lose your temper, get rid of those evil thoughts, struggle against your lusts, and so on.
The human being is only a receiver and not a producer of righteousness.
John 15:1-You are the branch, not the vine.
Romans 9:22-We are vessels of mercy, but formally vessels of wrath, but always vessels.
I Cor. 6:19-“You are the temple of the living God.”
Romans 6:17-You are slaves of righteousness, formally slaves of sin.
Romans 6:7-“He that is dead is freed from sin.”
The Human Being Has Never Been An Independent Self.
I John 4:6-“He that is in this world, and He that is in us.”
I John 4:6-“Spirit of truth, and Spirit of error.”
I John 3:10-“Child of the devil, child of God.”
Galatians 2:20-“I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.”
Romans 7:17-“It is not I, but sin that dwelleth in me.”
The Leap Of Faith
Colossians 3:3-4-“Christ, who is my life.”
Galatians 5:24-“In Christ we have crucified the flesh.”
Romans 6:6-“The Old self is crucified with Christ.”
Colossians 3:9 ; Eph. 22-24-“You have put off the old man with His deeds.”
Colossians 3:10-You have put on the new man which is renewed with a new mind.
Soul and Spirit Differences
I Thes. 5:23-“Sanctify your spirit, soul and body.”
Matt. 11:28-29-“There is a rest for our souls.”
Hebrews 4:13-“Sabbath rest for the people of God.”
Hebrews 4:13-“Diving soul from Spirit, joints and marrow, thoughts and intents.”
The School of Faith
Hebrews 11:6-“For with faith it is impossible to please God.”
Mark 11:22-“Have the faith of God, say unto this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea. And whatsoever you say, you shall have.”
Romans 4:17-“Call the things that be not as though they are.”
Detachments
( Nothing in this life is yours)
Luke 14:26-27—“Hate not his father, mother, wife, children, brethren & his own life.”
Genesis 22:2-“Take thy son, thine only son Isaac, & offer him there a burnt-offering.”
The Life Of Faith
Romans 4:20-“Abraham staggered not at the promises of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised He was able also to perform.”
Hebrews 11-The great heroes of faith.
The Three Levels of Maturity
I John 2:12-14
Fathers
“I have written unto you, Fathers, because you have know Him, that is from the beginning.” Our life is poured out for others.
John 21:18-“Another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou would not.”
Credentials of an Apostle
John 10:17-18-“Why does the Father love me?” “Because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.” “I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it up again.”
Hebrews 5:14-“He that is full of age has their senses exercised to discern good and evil.”
I Corinthians 4:9-15-“God has set for the Apostles as last as it were appointed to death,” “We are fools for Christ sake, but you are wise, we are weak, we are despised,” “Being reviled, we bless, being persecuted we suffer it, being defamed, we retreat.” “We are made the filth of the world, and the off scouring of all things.”
II Corinthians 1:5-“For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us,”
Works of an Father/Apostle
Ezek. 22:30-“I sought for a man to stand in the gap.”
Colossians 1:24-“I fill up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ.”
Galatians 6:2-“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”
The Call Of An Apostle/Intercessor
Don’t look for your intercession, and when it comes you won’t want it.
Jesus said “Take this cup from me.”
Jonah 1:2-“Arise go to Nineveh,”
Exodus 3:10-“I will send thee unto Pharaoh”
Isa. 6:9-“Go, and tell this people.”
John 1:6-“There is a man sent from God.”
The Cost of an Intercessor
Isa. 54:4-“He bore our grief, and carried our sorrows.”
Isa. 53:12-“He has poured out his soul unto death.”
II Corinthians 1:9-“We have the sentence of death in ourselves.”
II Corinthians 4:8-12-“We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed: we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in my mortal flesh.”
II Corinthians 4:11-“For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
The Completion and Fruit Bearing Of An Intercessor
II Corinthians 4:11b-“Death works in us, but life works in you.”
John 12:24-“If the seed die, it brings forth much fruit.”
John 15:16-“He has chosen you to bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain.”
Hebrew 2:10-“Bring many sons to glory”
Little Children,
Young Men,
and
Fathers

The One Cult

There are nearly as many groupings on this planet as people. Or perhaps there are more, because as individuals we have so many overlapping interests and beliefs.In the religious realm there are almost as many groups again. And that's before you get to Christianity.Once in this sphere you have all the main denominations and then a whole host of smaller groupings. All "Christian" groupings have fallen into mainly three divides: catholic, protestant and cult.How confusing to learn that in the Spirit there are only 2 realms.
Or perhaps this should not be confusing, but quite a well-received simplification. Spiritually speaking there is only cult.And there is only one true way.The one cult is run as a pyramid of power and fear with the Devil at the top of the pyramid. The true way is run as a Family, with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit at its centre, with wide open arms to all who are willing to fulfil the directives to once again be restored into its loving centre.Read "The Shack", a current bestseller.

You would have thought then that God's church was His representative on earth. But things only became more confusing about the time that Jesus painted a picture of how the Kingdom was going to run.

He the sower, or any of his servants who were sowing, put the seed into the field. After nightfall an enemy was going to sow secretly loads of weeds, tares and destructive plantseeds.Instead of doing much about it, the good sowers were going to leave the rubbish seeds to grow up alongside the actual crop. At the end of the age there was going to be a Divine sorting.

This is counterintuitive farming no? So the very thing the devil is using as a lever against the church in his negative PR ....is the very wisdom of God to bring about a mature bunch of Overcomers. Jesus knows the Church is in a mess, and sort of planned it that way.Why is the church in a mess? Well it contains both Kingdom seed and Cult members.All of us are in one or the other. And even if we are sure we have entered God's new Kingdom, we carry old Cult ways too.

EXTRA: Here is an example not posted in the original.
One of the most staggering things you will get from Jack Fortenberry's book, "Corinthian Elders" is this question.Where does it say that a pastor runs a church? Where? And you know what , it doesn't. It says there are elders who naturally form over a church by their wisdom, experience,anointing and age (not a young man,because of pride....but people's life expectancy was shorter then though!!) and it says there are pastors; people with a shepherding heart. But you produce me a verse that says a church has one pastor and he is in overall charge, This and other bombshells are in this book, and a limited amount are going to soon be available FREE on a firstcome first serve basis on this blog. BUT ONLY FOR UK LEADERS please.

So you begin to see that the concept of Rob Rufus sitting at the top of his pyramid as a pastor. Or Joel Osteen atop of his megachurch. Or Juan Carlos Ortiz being pulled into the glass Cathedral when Robert Schuller died....yup....sadly....what shape does that remind you of?





Does this mean that Rob Rufus and Joel Osteen are secretly Illuminati members?


Have we been misled in Havant all these years by John Wilbraham's humility. Secretly all along he has been in mobile contact with his upper liaison officers of the New World Order?


NO. Don't be stupid. But it is interesting how we pride ourselves of throwing the Pope aside only to keep buying into the same structures. Think of all the networks. Hillsongs. Salt and light. New Frontiers. They are all pyramids. But you must realise that this has been softened by presbyteries of elders surrounding these guys.


So what I'm saying is: In these days, don't do things because that's the way they have always been done. Because that is to import all our cultish ways back into the New Wineskins. Wait on God! Get the wineskins from him. But read Jack Fortenberry's timely book!

BACK TO THE POST.
How do we know what's what? Well God's given us a meter to read.










It's called the Good/Bad Fruitometer. It reads good and bad fruit. And that's how we tell. From the smell coming off the fruit! Poooooo!In the old Cult we were born into : the bigger dog generally gets the bone.It's survival of the fittest. Things are very political. And the politics are this:Exclude God from the scene.

By not already honouring the One True Federal Head of the Universe, by default, because there is no middle position, we serve the Usurping Cult Leader who is the devil.What we traditionally call cults have a standard set of traits. But these are just a more extreme set of the same traits that mark the whole of the One Cult.Here is one of them. It's hard to leave a cult. It is made difficult by fear, threats, social exclusion and general odd behaviour by the ones you are leaving. For this reason, when establishing His New Family Kingdom, Jesus said, "Unless you love Me more than your brother, sister,mother etc You are not worthy of Me" Setting your face in this way gives you the oomph needed to leave the ONLY ONE CULT.

This then is the blessing and problem of secularism: the freedom of choosing to be a part of it or no is a God given choice which is a holy freedom given to every inhabitant of earth.This is the blessing.The problem with secularism is the lie of its neutral ground, the untruth about its in between status.Jesus said "Whoever does not believe in Me is judged and condemned already."

This clearly shows there isn't some middleground while you are choosing. You have to choose to leave but IF YOU DON'T CHOOSE AT ALL, you have in fact still chosen! And you are still part of the ONE CULT you were born into.

This then has huge consequences when deciding how to structure things.Man was not left to his own devices and God was very specific in setting up the Garden in the beginning in Genesis. And He is also very specific about our surroundings now.Firstly, in the Garden there was a choice between the Tree of Life, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Notice the choice was not between Life and say the Tree of Anarchy.This is just the same now.If we fail to choose the supernatural Life of Jesus, we still fall back into the arms of the Law of sin and death. So again, it is not a choice between the Tree of Life and the Tree of Anarchy.Law, it says in Romans is the school master that leads us to the real thing, which is Christ.

John and Carol Arnott describe it this way. By default we are in a realm of law and judgement.Cause and effect.Here we deserve what we get.... Probably more than we in fact get.But when we reach into the Kingdom realm, and John and Carol get people to act this out, we are pulling down out of heaven, out of a totally different realm.
In the heavenly realm the Law of Sin and Death and Judgment ceases to apply, because the price has been paid already.

These are some of the discoveries made by the Faith Movement. The reason why the faith movement is so maligned is a misunderstanding about this new realm.

THIS IS THE MISUNDERSTANDING . We are not just pulling new things and blessings out of heaven!Fast cars and big houses and loadsa dosh! We are pulling a new operator out of heaven! It's a NEW YOU entirely. Not patched up. Not a self-improved version. At your spirit centre there is not one bit of you that has anything in common with what you were before.
Your spirit was so bound up in darkness, so twisted up in it, so sick with it, I'm sorry to say a decision was made before you had anything to do with it. It was decided that your old spirit centre had to be annihilated. So it was totally, I mean totally destroyed at the Cross.Then your spirit was resurrected inextricably bound up with Christ. It is so tightly woven with Christ that (I'm afraid to say again, as you had no say in this,)at no point can you find the join between what is you and what is Him.

But your soul and body ofcourse are just the same, and they have to spend a while catching up with what just happened when you asked Jesus into your life. It's so radical they take a while to catch up. That's why you must must must allow yourself to be baptised in the Spirit. Not only to speed up this catch up reeducation programme, but also because it gives you power to extend the processes that are happening to you into other's lives.

So it's not an old creation version of you reaching into heaven to pull down Ferraris, an endless supply of mansions..etc etc it's a completely new being like Christ Himself who co operates with God to bring down out of heaven what is next on the Kingdom schedule.

If you want to read more about someone who was confused about how you use faith and the supernatural read about Jacob in Genesis. He , like many in the Faith movement, learned the faith tools, BEFORE learning about the change of PERSON. So God had to put him right with a little encounter at Peniel.

This then is the foundation describing the One Cult, and how we leave it. The next thing is to begin describing how the Cult operates and how it affects us. This cult that we inherited through Adam began in Genesis 3:5. If we would just reach out our hand and take of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, we would be gods in our own right, fully able to decide how to live our lives as "independent beings" from this information.What we were not told is that there is no such position of independence, and a false spirit entered into and fatally entwined itself around our spirit from that point.We became spiritually dead. Separated from God. And believing lots of lies about the goodness of God the Father. We became ashamed for the first time ever. And covered our shame pretty uselessly with figleaves. There are gaps in leaves and nakedness shows through!!! We entered a false cult with one overarching cultleader: the devil, who unknown to us, had just been invited to become "god of this world" by our disobedience.This spirit of disobedience is according to Rob Rufus, Mark Stibbe and Bill Johnson both a political spirit and a religious spirit, both having the same head, the devil.

Proverbs 3 verse 5 states the KINGDOM WAY of living "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and DO NOT RELY on your own insight."The ONE CULT says rely on your own insight first and if you have anything left over, believe a little in the Lord or some god or not, as you wish...but if you do, believe in your head, and certainly don't do any trusting in your heart.

This has the effect of shutting down the right use of our heart, our inner insight,our inner wisdom faculty,our intuition, our hunches,and making us quite Dalek like, or Cyberman like in our approach to life.We become hardened in heart. Cynical.Fearful.Putting our trust in the wrong places.We become linear thinkers primarily, hopelessly trying to reel in as many facts as possible with which to weigh our decisions. I say hopelessly...because who can possibly hope to have the measure of all possible facts concerning other people's future actions, and concerning future events with which we can make safe decisions.
It's not just difficult being gods. It's just plain stupid setting ourselves up in this way.

God had a lot to say to Job on the matter before finally restoring him. This experience of being "locked up" in our minds, our left-brain frontal lobes, while all the while being crippled with fear in our hearts causes us to submit easily to the POLITICAL SPIRIT and the RELIGIOUS SPIRIT of the ONE CULT.

THE POLITICAL SPIRIT.

Firstly the POLITICAL SPIRIT of the ONE CULT is not the same as the "spirit of politics". Christians in Kenya regaled me with the notion that a Christian in politics is a contradiction in terms. Try telling Bob and Rose Weiner who were certainly involved in getting American Christians into politics.No the POLITICAL SPIRIT has very little direct interest in fair and true politics. Its end is the furtherance and strengthening of its own cult leader's position. Ultimately it is aiming to present its own Christ..."the Christ in the place of" or Antichrist as world leader.In this context, you will find this proposed EU directive interesting

http://www.christianlegalcentre.com/view.php?id=848

The Directive ignores the necessity of providing protection in connection with conflicts inevitably arising out of:
Differences between those expressing religious tenets of one religion and the doctrines of another religion;
or Differences between those expressing religious tenets on sexual conduct and those professing a homosexual orientation.

Rather than make much comment on this, I want to highlight the problem of living from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and making impossible decisions between rival philosophies. The Bible talks about girding ourselves with the belt of truth. Truth , you notice, is positioned nowhere near your left-brain. It is something you get increasingly girding the innermost parts of you. When you speak from here, you speak from a realm of authority the political spirit hasn't a clue about, because the political spirit seeks to manipulate your left-brain. If you can shut down people's connection to God on their insides, you can easily manipulate their minds with a plausible set of arguments, having set it out clearly with a lawyer's skill. Or is that rather with a conman's skill?

The most intelligent nation that ever lived welcomed in Hitler, and willingly set up mass extermination concentration camps with consummate left-brain skill.One of the most intelligent diplomats of the Roman world, installed because of his skill in the most turbulent of cities , Jerusalem, still had no trouble in consigning God Himself to crucifixion.This is the political spirit. It relies on people living in their left-brains and disconnected from their hearts to survive and thrive.Proverbs 3:5 is one of the main antidotes. In Part 2 of The End Times and Christ In You I will expound further how easy it is for the devil to install the system described in Revelation by St John.

But you can see how easy it was for him already, in the Garden, in Jerusalem, and in Hitler's Germany.

THE RELIGIOUS SPIRIT

Once you see that there is only ONE CULT expressed through a RELIGIOUS SPIRIT and a POLITICAL SPIRIT you begin to see its skill working through history. Because the RELIGIOUS SPIRIT was allowed to infiltrate Christianity at the highest level, it was able to destroy Christianity's credibility in the Earth. You must understand this is only apparent failure.The failures were real, but they were not fruit of God's Spirit moving in the church, they are bad fruit emanating from the measure the Church has hooked back up with the ONE CULT in its religious guise.

It was like a pincer movement throughout history. You can imagine the devil's board meeting. "Right, you infiltrate the Church. make it a laughing stock. Then we'll get the political spirit to take over at the Enlightenment and install the POLITICAL SPIRIT of SECULARISM as a fair and just alternative. Everyone will fall for it. And then in 2007 we'll remind them in the book "God Delusion", in case they were forgetting.

Then it should be plainsailing right through to world victory when I install my Antichrist."

His plans have worked pretty well so far because a secular person, living in his head and not in inner wisdom, just does not have the discernment to tell the difference between a religious person, (who is still a member of the ONE CULT) and a true believer in Christ. And the sheer confusion is enough to keep most unbelievers away. But then God is not looking for people who are mildly interested in the Kingdom. He is looking for people who really want the Truth at all costs and are prepared to press right through until they see clearly.The first commandment was always:

Love the Lord Your God with ALL your heart, all your soul,(then and only then ALL your mind). In other words...Love God with a passion! Then you will begin to get somewhere.

Cuckoos Eggs and Corinthian Elders

Christine and I had a special treat today. Paul Noble felt specifically to come all the way over to pray and share with us.

This was buzzing around in my thoughts and heart today.
Cuckoos eggs.
As I remember back, the only meetings I can really function in are meetings like The Key of David meetings here in Havant. People come from miles around to these and the next one is on Sunday 6th September at 7pm. More info about what they are here


I remember visiting my old church (Old Town baptist Church,Amersham) and prophesying something similar to what I am going to share below but 30 years ago. It was for the newly converted youth who came in on the next wave after our 1972 wave.


The reason the word was not really received...in fact it was heftily modified!!! was the fact that it cut like a knife to the core of how leaders relate with flock.


Today I received the same type of thing but using a different example.


God has been busy laying His kingdom eggs like a cuckoo all over the show in the last decades.


In Elim networks. AOG networks. Baptist churches. Methodist Churches. Pioneer Network. Terry Virgo's New Frontiers. Barney Coombs Salt and Light network. Alan Vincents' setups. and so on and so on.


But what God said today is that some of these leaders...not necessarily the ones I've mentioned per se, who are dear dear brothers...but some of the network leaders are going to be disappointed. They have been labouring hard for decades but have been unaware that these eggs or now young birds are Kingdom birds. They belong to the Lord. They will have nothing to do with the nests and networks that they grew up in. They are called to build the Kingdom. Nothing less than the Kingdom. Not a network version of the Kingdom. They will be building expressions of the Kingdom that are absolutely not recognisable to these former works. And that's OK. Because God has a world to reach.


Some of the phrases in the following 1990 word are totally applicable at this point: It begins like this and you can read it here:Prophecy - with special reference to Singers and MusiciansI have opened a new door in Heaven. The way to this door is very difficult It is difficult because of the pride of man. But in fact it is a very simpleway. A way of faith. A way of humility...

Corinthian Elders.

At this point I want to mention this book by Jack Fortenberry. Click the picture to purchase at Amazon. I read it, took it on holiday with me, and we've not seen it since. The good thing about this is I cannot give too much away. It is a small book.

Originally I thought it was going to be a book about shifting the chairs on the Titanic. A rather grumpy book about how churches need to change their structure in order for God to move. Which for me is cart about horse!!

But it turns out this book is vital to the current dialogue about changes in how we do church.

As the prophecy above shows, church is about building Christ into the believer, not about building Christians into networks. I'll say that again. Church is about building Christ into the believer and not about building Christians into networks.

One of the amazing cause and effect things Jack writes about is this, using the Corinthian example. Paul wrote a Spirit inspired sword-dividing spirit from soul Word about the way they were relating to "star leaders". Jack pinpoints the fact that if we build around "stars", we should not be surprised that we are just sowing in the soil of dissension, jealousy and disunity. From which ofcourse, we reap discord, jealousy, envy and surprise surprise disunity. This is everywhere in the church today. But who has seen the link, the simple clear link between this and one man ministry? This was just one of a whole host of impacting scriptural challenges. Those of you who are listening closely to the Spirit of God should find this book a real confirmation of some of the behavioural choices you have had to make as churches. I want to commend Havant Church and the ministries of Peter and Mariette Stott , and John and Wendy (remember Christine and I didn't know that John and Wendy were the pastors for about 9 months of going there). There's laid back and there's John and Wendy. But even saying all this, there are still some slicing points in the book for our church.