In which Jack Fortenberry and Chris Welch talk more on the subject of Christian leadership

Jack Fortenberry is the author of "Corinthian Elders"
Facebook conversation.
Chris Welch 12 February at 20:24 You,having written all this radical stuff, can I pick your brain?
In the natural world animals are always and continually establishing their pecking order. By holding out for "a pyramidless" structure is this somehow a negation of God's natural leadership order. I mean in the sense that skills of leadership manifest through some and not others.Or in the Body is it rather that many manifest leadership in different ways, for example in counselling, in administration, in teaching, in music, in helps.....and we just welcome each in their roles at appropriate times. Quakers and Brethren denominations have explored these things. How does it work among you guys? I mean, if certain of you are just really experienced in leading in secular situations, is there some sort of follow through in your church gatherings? .
Jack Fortenberry 12 February at 21:25 Report
Hi Chris,

I think consensus governance & participatory assemblies do have a negative effect on the "natural leadership order" but I don’t see it as God’s natural order. In other words just because we see a pecking order in much of nature (chickens, wolf packs, queen bees, people) remember we also see much of nature working in a euphony without subjection to a pecking order (schools of feeding or evading fish, whale pods, flocks of birds, grazing herds). Not to say there are not fights over mating rights or food but still living creatures together accomplishing feats without a leader or leader class. Likewise It appears that our return to God’s order will be leaderless (except for our Head & King) lions coexisting with lambs and toddlers coexisting with vipers without a need for subjection (other than mutual subjection). The only natural 'order' subjection from God that I see in the NT is subjection to Christ but to a lesser degree, governments, parents, apostolic teaching, employers (masters), elders (older in the faith). Then, of course, we are all to be in subjection to each other.

In our group there are those that seem to have more motivaltional, administrative or organizational skills in truth and in their reputation but those gifts seem to be enjoyed by the body without encroaching on the contributions and sincere desire for the contributions and ideas of others (less “leaderly” brothers and sisters in the body). In other words because those successful businessmen or academically talented individuals respect every ones’ gifts (as you mentioned like service, mercy, music, wisdom), then it actually makes them even better (I believe) in execution of their day to day duties.

Who would have thought that simply ‘listening’ would help so much! If it is not the listening perhaps it is their humility when not considering themselves better which somehow appears to add wisdom to those with ‘leadership’ skills. Perhaps there is a better word to describe those. Perhaps when identifying those individual talents we use ‘leader’ from our sinful nature while wanting a leader or wanting to be a leader but really we should be more precise in our adjective. For example certainly it would make sense to submit to someone more experienced for a task but also an experienced one should encourage others to receive more experience so there you go.

Hope you are well! I have continued to enjoy your thoughts on your blog and on Facebook. Blessings brother! .
Chris Welch 13 February at 20:44 thanks for that Jack. It's fascinating. Christian men are fascinating too.People in the world cannot be messed around. Step too far, the solution is simple...you get yelled at....or a fist in your face. Christian men , until God's really got a hold of them, do this "fake" humility thing. In the Spirit you can pick up their intense annoyance that they are being treated thus, but on the surface they are all genteel. So, in truth, or under God's Holy Spirit Xray , whether you curl your lip, or do this fake humility...the root is just the same. An Anger problem.
Now this affects music too. I know there is a beautiful music which is in the Spirit of God, but one of the effects of men not being properly sorted knowing who they are, manifests in music. Raw passion is numbed down so as well as getting numbed down anger, we also get numbed down praise and numbed down warfare, and wet male worship of Jesus . Some of that might work for ladies, but even there I am not sure.
In matters of leadership,

( Have no idea who these guys are....probably all 50 and older and wiser)

males who do not know they are Christ in their form yet, rather too willingly abdicate leadership to that nice strong pyramid leader who will protect them. And a leader who has 100,1000,10,000 of these is not going to quickly rock the boat and implant Christ in the others.
This is one of my major gripes with Morris Cerullo. HE HAS brought forth some incredible generals, who now in turn have churches that are huge....but I do think he has a lot to lose in terms of his megaprojects if he was to leave his patronism behind too quickly, and not head up his banquets for all punters to stump up his next 40 million quid or whatever it is now a year.
This is all talking negative. Let's talk positive. If the early apostles just by praying in Acts 4 could cause an earthquake, what would happen with a thousand , ten thousand,a hundred thousand fullreawakened men all commanding history at the same time in the Holy Spirit?

The Full Gospel just got Fuller

Secular life understands only the achievement of steps or grades.When you finish one you move onto say,university.When a Christian like me talks of levels non Christians and young Christians hear that phrase through secular headphones.But in Gods house steps are banned,unlike in any other temple on Earth.The levels are Rooms that anyone is free to enter at any time because Someone else paid the price.So in our meetings when a 5 year old gets the direction for a meeting that's OK cos he or she is free to roam.You spend your lifetime in a series of larger and larger arcs exploring all 3 levels.When you are grownup you don't stop drinking milk just cos you can eat meat do you? Facebook 31st May AC Welch
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Note by AC Welch on Facebook 5th May 2010
The Full Gospel just got Fuller

Heard of Pentecostals talking about the Full Gospel?
Heard of the Full Gospel Businessman's Association?
Well it turns out this is actually the 2/3 full gospel.


Now that's a shocker to many many folk. But it turns out to be true.
There are three distinct layers to this salvation of ours, and God took a lot of time to prepare us with prototypes. I mean, it's not like He thought, how can I bamboozle those children of mine....I know I'll rustle three stages to this Christian Life right past 'em that they'll not know what's hit them!! I'll do it so fast, just so Me and the angels can sit up in heaven and have a good laugh!!!

NO. NO WAY.

Now our problem is we just don't listen. God has spent thousands of years over this deal. And that's just on Earth. From time past immemorial He has been dreaming this one up.

It's something like the way a baby develops. Core sets of cells have to develop first, but what do you know? Each of these core sections subdivide into more and more intricacies.

Or it's like brain development. In the last decades we have discovered a bit about what type of things the brain is doing at what age. And if vital input is missed at certain stages....well....maybe its only the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that is going to put that stuff into us and effectively "heal" us at a much later stage. Last year, reports came out about how different the teenage brain is, as it prepares for the onslaught of adult understandings.

But you can go too far with this and just assume that life is an endless passage of spiralling development. But ofcourse it isn't. There are three, possibly four clear stages for each of us. Children,teenage,parents and perhaps grandparents.

Now the Bible in 1 John 2 only talks of the first three in spiritual terms.

No, the point of what I am saying is that God has mostly left us examples of threes. You can learn more about this in the talk Introduction to the Third Level 1989 here: http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/04/hudson-taylors-holy-spirit-lineage-part_26.html

Perhaps the initial example par excellence is the three generation revelation given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Later on we had the three stage picture of the Tabernacle. Outer Courts,Holy Place,Holiest Place.
Then we had the three main Feasts; Feast of Passover,Feast of Pentecost and Feast of Tabernacles.

This last example gives us a wink and a nudge to the fact that in the Spirit, these stages or levels are going on INDIVIDUALLY and CORPORATELY in a people. Why else would you have a Feast?

A ONE MEMBERED FEAST IS A BIT SAD!!!!!!

Now my friend John just wrote this succinct phrase: " Mine was a Rom 1-5 and Rom 8 church with gifts of the Spirit on top."

Think about it. That sums up most of the last century's Pentecostal teaching right there.

And it sums up the full extent of most pulpits in churches worldwide, and that's saying it's a church which also teaches being born again and filled with the Spirit. Ofcourse the greater number of churches don't even get this far.

Now we shall be diplomatic and say it is their own ignorance that is causing preachers to confine themselves to John's phrase. Seminaries don't generally teach anything more than a "spiritual airy fairy" salvation. Who thinks that's why most non-Christians think Christianity is "airy fairy"?

The less diplomatic view is that as we pay tithes to leaders it is not in their interest that the congregation ever grow, so if they can continuously teach the first principles .....what Steve Mc Vey is calling "Lies", then people never get to actually learn the trade secrets of the Divine Supernatural Indwelling Christ who is actually the one bringing forth His Life in us.

If preachers can miss out the "threefold " pattern of how Christ grows in us...
If they can allegorize, or teach that Romans 6 and 7 is only for non-Christians, so don't fuss your little heads about that one....
If they can keep churches from in any way resembling the middle pupae phase of a butterfly, and keep Christians in the caterpillar stage indefinitely...

they can be receiving several decades of tens or hundreds of tithes , amounting to a lot of money.
Also pastors can rest assured that as the ones listening will never grow much, these leaders will never have any competition and can remain as King of the Pyramid , as Church Pastor No.1.

That's the undiplomatic view.

But the same Jesus growing in me, is the same Jesus growing in you. The same grace is available for all.
People used to describe certain Christians as "special". "Oh they're so lovely. So special"

NOPE sunshine. They are not! The technical Kingdom word for that "special" brother or sister is
NORMAL.

They just got to understand a little sooner that it was all about Jesus growing inside them.....and actually that we were never independent beings in the first place......

So I'm all for preaching the Full Gospel. And we can safely say this, because the gospel isn't going to suddenly develop more levels! But rather we are going to go higher deeper wider further into the immensity of God's love for us as we carry on exploring all three levels.