Call no man pastor

Chuck Lawless writes old school telltale signs "that you need to pray for a pastor"
10 SIGNS YOUR PASTOR NEEDS PRAYER By Chuck Lawless • August 24, 2017
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“I’ve seen the most patient, giving pastors surprisingly lose their cool when other issues are weighing on them.”
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I write this post as one who has served as a senior pastor, associate pastor and interim pastor. I know the times when I desperately wanted the increased prayers of my church for various reasons, but I was too private and arrogant to ask.
Based on my life and years of interactions with pastors, here are some signs you might watch for:
1. Pulling Away From People
Pastors who begin to disconnect from their people are likely dealing with something. Whatever it is, seclusion is seldom the answer.
2. Disorganization in Sermons
Pastors whose sermons unexpectedly begin to lose focus need our prayers. Something’s likely in the way of preparation.
3. Less Passion in the Pulpit
This one’s a subjective assessment, but you know when your pastors lack the fervor they used to have.
4. Fewer Stories of Day-to-Day Evangelism
When we carry heavy burdens—or are even dealing with private sin—we do less evangelism. That’s not a good sign.
5. Difficulty Listening
You know the scenario: You’re talking to someone, and that person is looking right past you. Pastors who no longer listen well are probably dealing with something else in their head.
6. Quickly Becoming Frustrated
I’ve seen the most patient, giving pastors surprisingly lose their cool when other issues are weighing on them.
7. Unfinished Tasks
Leaders who are increasingly distracted often fail to complete tasks they almost always finished in less-stressed days.
8. Forgetfulness
It happens to all of us on some days, but struggling pastors are often more inclined to forgetting their commitments, appointments, etc.
9. Burdened Spouse
Sometimes you can first tell something’s heavy because you see the weight in the eyes of the pastor’s spouse. A family is at times more obviously burdened than the pastor is.
10. Denial
When seemingly distracted pastors deny they’re dealing with something, that very denial should be a call to prayer. Take the signal—and hit your knees on behalf of your pastor.
What might you add to this list?
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Well what I'd like to add to this list Chuck is that no scripture anywhere talks about one man heading up any church anywhere. I think you may have that confused with Jews, synagogues and Rabbis.
The "one man " technology was bought wholesale with Catholicism. in the Bible there are elders over local churches, plural, and all sorts of recognised ministry callings, all functioning along side each other.
Apostles ,prophets, pastors, teachers evangelists, discerners of spirits,administrators, helps. A pastor is not a designated head over anything, so right there most of your examples are registers of illegal burnout caused by nobody reading the scriptures and learning from the Holy Spirit what a church really is. But i guess Chuck , actually putting things right would be too much for your generation, so thirdlevel Christianity will have to wait , like the Israelites for the next generation down. When are you planning to die?
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3 Cecilia Tacuboy Urian, Andrew Thurner and Paul Noble
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Paul Noble
Paul Noble This list is like someone talking about crossing the Atlantic in a sailing ship when we have air travel!

Review of Paul Noble's "Inspired" new Album of his piano compositions

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So you know about the angle I am coming from. I am a piano tuner (est.1981) so I am aware of piano and keyboard repertoire. O and A level music introduced us to Bachs Brandenburg No 5, and Debussy Preludes and some of Chopin and Liszt Brahms and Rachmaninov.
I thought Richard Clayderman too saccharine.-
Like some of Elton John's more inspired songs.-
Find Glass,Nyman and Einaudi either too repetitive or feel I could compose better. (Have produced a double CD in the 90s)
As Glass Nyman and Einaudi have similarities, and Paul Noble writes at times in similar vein I have to accept that the current vibe cannot be denied and that perhaps it is preparing us for what we need, which is to be in touch with our insides more meditatively, and inspiration knows better than any of us what we need next. So instead of hiding, like it or lump it, it IS what is going on, what is MEANT TO BE.
So having thought along these lines and knowing Paul personally, which can be a huge stumbling block, because everybody tends to ignore "the prophet" or "artist" in their back yard, I have been super enthused the more I have played these tracks. The variety of material and mood is actually very inventive, and the tunes grow on you like pop hooks. Some are like Joplin's "Entertainer" which when it became famous again in the 70s for The Sting, was sniffily received by classical critics. But ragtime is what it is, and you can't just dismiss a whole genre of inventiveness, and The Entertainer is one of the finest, and has endured over the last 40 years even more so.
Western intellectuals have this tendency to call deeper emotions "good classical" and lighter happier expressions as "vapid", "lightweight", "not worthy of critical review". Because of this insane bias whole cultures of music are never explored, such as
Spanish, Mexican, Cuban and Argentinian music.
So while not presenting Paul's album as a Spanish orientated album, you will be taken into many worlds and moods, some overtly Mozartian, others more expressive of Seasons (Winter) or Nature (Spring, By The Sea. Mountain Top). This is a MUST BUY , and has a variety of uses, as foreground music, background music, meditation music of substance(yes I DO have a bias against much vapid New Age stuff) and piano music for you to have a go at.

Set To's.

People call the "no independent self" gospel many things. Navel gazing. Speaking from a high tower.
Esoteric. Complicated. Obscure points from Genesis 3.
A lot of fog is raised.
But the point is simple. There is no independent life. We are walking Satans or walking Christs. The devil sold us this fake secular mid-ground. Churches everywhere at the moment build Christ ONTO the Genesis 3 LIE.  As I say below...this is no insult to the church, the church is insulting Christ.
But the fruit of NOT BUILDING ON THE ROCK...the One Life in the Universe...is everywhere to see.

Some simple points...but look at the fog!!!!!  I haven't been in these type of set to's or arguments since the early 70s when people used the same phrases about the charismatic truths which we were all rediscovering. Always it's.....where is the fruit? All I can see is further division. What about evangelism?   Well as we know the Spirit brought in multitudes more in the last decades round the earth as people opened up to the supernatural work of the Spirit. But those challenging for fruit still to this very day don't see anything....and we are blinking...going....how can you even miss the fruit?





Paul Noble Yes but Chris if we wait for your perfect church no one will get save in the meantime.
1 hr · Like
Tony Hickman Chris your words are an insult to the body if Christ.
1 hr · Like · 1
Chris Welch Get in the throne room and look for yourself. This is 100% truth and if it insults then the Body needs insulting for to build upon Satan's foundation is an insult to Jesus Christ who has provided everything we need to preach a complete Life filled gospel.
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DeGarson Oghenekevwe, Jee Venish, Jacque Tokuhara and 3 others like this.

Chris Welch God said to our generation to seek Him as Jacob sought the Face of Jacob. Such a generation are described in Psalm 24. Just like Jacob, as we drilled down and down....things didn't get better they got messier. The Jews actually found the same with the Law.
We don't wait for the perfect we live believing in His perfect life growing and manifesting in us. This is the Rock on which we build. God is ceaselessly active but the frequency He broadcasts His messages on are described as
Behold I come to do your will....it is written of Me in the Book...You have prepared a Body for me. This is the victory even our faith.
16 April at 12:05 · Like

Samantha Paradinha 'The church leaders knew Jesus was speaking of them and were insulted...' Sounds biblical to me. Jesus is against the systems that bring bondage; hierarchy. Jesus said they saved people only to make them twice the sons of hell that they themselves were. Yet, the entire (church) world believed the system was 'right.' It is relationships we need not church rules of attendance and tithing. Btw this tithing thing is a much bigger deal than we realize. It is the glue holding these church corporations together. The tithe is the Lord's an He chooses to give it to people. The ministers, janitors, singers, poor, orphans,... People get saved when you miraculously meet their physical needs. Also, I have had more people saved from my personal witness since I left the church structure and got free of self righteousness and wrong seeing. People the church had already seriously turned off and would never reach.
16 April at 16:59 · Like

Chris Welch On Thursdays at the Hayling Seminary we study Advanced Insulting, this lesson follows Log Removal from Own Eyes which is at 7pm.
16 April at 18:14 · Like

Paul Noble Chris, now u are offended but you are not communicating effectively you just seem to be shouting incomprehensibly from a high tower!
16 April at 21:08 · Like

Paul Noble Its not your job or any of us to insult the body of christ surely?
16 April at 21:08 · Like

Chris Welch Unless something looks like the Body believes like the Body and reproduces like the Body then it isn't Revelation 12 and I will insult whoever it maybe all I like.
16 April at 21:56 · Like · 1

Chris Welch Paul did the same with St Peter so don't come all the insult game with me.
16 April at 21:57 · Like

Chris Welch I am communicating by the way very effectively and those with ears to hear hear perfectly well.
16 April at 21:59 · Like

Chris Welch You've been in the Brethren far too long.
16 April at 22:00 · Like

Paul Noble Chris I disagree ... show me your faith by your works. All you will do is alienate people if u insult them. It's easy to tickle people ears here on Facebook but what this world needs is a demonstration not theological summaries such as Genesis 3 and Revelation 12. As a teacher one thing I've learnt - if you can't explain it simply then either you don't really understand it or its not true.
16 April at 22:46 · Like · 1

Samantha Paradinha I think it is one of those things you are going to have to get directly from Jesus. It is like being in a structure and saying we can't receive you unless you minister through our structure, but the whole point is to function without the middle men. It is a very serious thing to tell Gods people what to do and how to do it when he paid such a high price for our freedom. Like nazis's saying we will believe you if you have the furor's approval. It is a controlling system as evil. "Stand up, sit down, say this to your neighbor, give me your money, control your kids as I say, come to the altar now or you aren't saved (actual words spoken in a church), worship the leader or else, ... It's bad. It's very bad. It isn't biblical to say it isn't God if it isn't a polite debate.
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Chris Welch I've known you several years Paul. I saw you when you sat upset against the wall. i saw you take faith steps to go to Lee on Solent. I saw you meant enough business to be able to hold on to your integrity and Fran's and start ministering local to Gosport in the face of total lockdown in other church frameworks. Do you think I am talking to you lightly? Do you think I am having a brotherly tiff? I am trying to cut into your life so that you won't have many more wasted years building your empire, but you will start to be in step and in yoke with the Living God. Do you think I take lightly being sent home from the mission field inParis? Do you think I don't value highly that in the face of complete failure and then alienation the God of heaven would choose me and various others to open up the very same level the apostles were in , but that has been lost for 2000 years? Many are those with anointing....but you can count on one hand virtually the people that know Galatians 2:20 as consciousness day in day out, as the apostles did. And upon this Rock, upon this revelation God builds His real thing, though it take time. It cannot fail because it is Him doing the building and not some trumped up frontman trying to do his bit for God.
1 hr · Edited · Like · 2

Paul Noble Chris Facebook isn't the place for these sort of spats. I'm sorry but you have no idea ... excuse me wasted years ... building empire - wow! If you really had some amazing revelation that no one else had it would be a little more than words
1 hr · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul Noble, what did Jesus do calling Peter "Satan" in rebuke? it's rebuke, but the immature and unbelievers call it insult, well, we'll keep rebuking and chastising, till y'all grow up or get out, either way it's your choice
1 hr · Like

Paul Noble Degarson wow another one making themselves judge and jury. What do u know! Heads the size of planets!
1 hr · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul Noble, it's simple, peace passes all understanding, love passes all knowledge, as gravity, sky and time depict God as benefactor/greatest/servant of all, so are we to depict God likewise, being beneficial to all, each one benefiting all clearly, e...See More
1 hr · Like · 1

Samantha Paradinha One head the size of universes.
1 hr · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul Noble, 1John4:1, John 7:24, Judge righteous judgement, Test/discern/judge the spirits, Paul as Jesus was sent in the capacity/name/authority of the Father as Judge and Jury, so Jesus sent me, if you don't know your orders, you will be flogged/stroked/teased/whipped, whoever offends the will/pleasure of God knowingly will receive more stripes than one who offends unknowingly, whiplash either way, so get with the program, or get whipped
1 hr · Like

Paul Noble Very strange
1 hr · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul, you have the light as all else, John 1:9, don't shine less than Jesus did, he called his disciples once 'faithless generation', he called the disciples on the way to Emmaus 'fools', because they were slow of heart to believe all the prophets said about him, he rebukes his own in their immaturity, he chastises whom he loves, and pronounces woe to one through whom ill will comes/manifests, Paul also followed suit calling the Galatians 'foolish' due to their misbehavior...Paul Noble, there's nothing strange about me, there's only your denial of the character and correctness of Christ and Chris Welch in this matter
52 mins · Like

Chris Welch Why strange Paul? And why making themselves judge and jury? This is a description of how Life works. It is objective and not personal. Why is what I say going to be more true if some big miracle goes with it? Surely you have decided already what you want. How is a miracle going to help you?
52 mins · Like

Chris Welch I am now going to say an annoying thing like Jesus did. To me the greatest miracle is that when God told me years ago there is another level yet for My church, He has been faithful to His Word and begun opening this huge well in His Church worldwide. In my weakness and foolishness I was prepared to be the only one, and then like opening a lounge door for a surprise birthday party all of a sudden in 2008 or so it was like there were thousands and I am just a bit part player!!!!
48 mins · Like

Paul Noble Weird?
48 mins · Like

Chris Welch How is that weird Paul?
47 mins · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul, you have the light as all else, John 1:9, Romans 1:19&20, it is inexcusable that people especially proclaimed believers haven't patterned their congregation by the cooperation of Godhead, Jesus called his disciples once faithless generation and a...See More
46 mins · Like

Paul Noble What are you doing exactly?
44 mins · Like

Chris Welch believing
44 mins · Like

Paul Noble So where is the fruit?
44 mins · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul, 1Corinthians 1:30 and 1Corinthians 2:9&10, implies that Jesus who is our God our love surpasses all we can ever call revelation, and he is our wisdom, and commonwealth of sanctification, holiness and redemption, if you don't wanna wise up, shut up
44 mins · Like

Paul Noble I feel the love
43 mins · Like

Chris Welch well right now sad to say it is exactly the same fruit as in many of Jesus encounters
43 mins · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe yeah, you'd be so feeling the love had Jesus called you also Satan as he did Peter, and it'll still be love Jesus telling people, I don't know you, you worker of iniquity, even as Jesus was loving the churches he rebuked within Revelations 1-3, when you're rebuked and chastised, take it and mature, learn, don't whine and pout, it's childish not childlike
40 mins · Like

Chris Welch perhaps we are too wet over here....we probably need more African Village elders over here
38 mins · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe it's no less love because God pours wrath down, read Romans 1:18, wow, why's God angry? read Psalms 2, God mocks idiots in derision, speaks to them in his wrath, and distresses/upsets them in his sore displeasure...hmm, is God any less loving doing all that? Paul, wise up or shut up, grow up or get out, it's your choice...selah
38 mins · Like

Paul Noble Be careful u don't know who I am in the spirit
38 mins · Like

Chris Welch well right now you may find yourself operating like Aleister Crowley and I wouldn't take that lightly either.
37 mins · Like

Chris Welch This is the problem Paul....perhaps we don't know you in the spirit and you should start letting the Holy Spirit make you transparent.
36 mins · Like

Chris Welch It's called walking in the Light
36 mins · Like

Paul Noble Not on Facebook with weird guys like you - sorry
36 mins · Like

DeGarson Oghenekevwe LOL, Paul read about me, Isaiah 30:27&28...don't go there, your speech betrays you, don't you ever dare warn me thus, read psalms 2:10-12...selah
36 mins · Like

Paul Noble Oh and what your going to send the wrath of God upon me?
34 mins · Like

Chris Welchwell we have gone a long way from.....time to build on the Rock.
Then I was accused of being insulting to the church.
Then I pointed out the fruit of what building on anything other than the Rock is....it's everywhere around us. Divisions. Streams . Party spirit. People going in one door and coming out the other.
The point being made is that the church either moves into a fully grown up position where at least the leaders are what John described as Fathers....and flowing together in the same Name of Jesus wherever they are all over the earth....
Or we carry on as a laughing stock of half built towers.
15 hrs · Edited · Like · 1

DeGarson Oghenekevwe Paul, you warned me first right, claiming I don't know who you are in spirit? Now you taunt me? You simply expose yourself as ignorant

Sneaking out by night....Genesis 31

^{Genesis 31:20} And Jacob deceived Laban the Aramean by not telling him that he was fleeing. ²¹ So he fled with all that he had; and he arose and crossed the Euphrates River, and set his face toward the hill country of Gilead.



Jacob Song written by A.Christopher Welch (my official name)1989 and recorded in John Daniels Studio Farlington in 1991 as part of my double CD "Early Harvest"
Key to Lyrics : "angels/men with knives " amalgamates these sorts of scriptures
The Tree of Life guarded by cherubim with swords
Hebrews 4 : the Living and active Sword
The angel coming out against Moses who was not yet circumcised
Circumcision of the heart
The angel coming out against Joshua's presumption that he was in charge
And ofcourse Peniel, Genesis 32

• 

  13:18

  Paul Noble
  

  
  

  Yes I think I'm going to contact Peter again

  Ps we've just seen 3 local homeless people get saved and they are now coming to church. All we did was give them a christmas meal and show them some practical help
• Friday
• 

  18:02

  Chris Welch
  

  
  

  Paul let me be quite blunt. I appreciate you and Rohan may not quite believe the same as me...but I like you,Rohan and Derek because I see you as Melchizedek order people. The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals, all doing your bit. Rohan too. If left to his own devices he'll build the most perfect healing pyramid in his name in Leigh Park. Derek has been reigned in by the Spirit and now by faith continues the struggle for clarity of believing in Portsdown...but at least he's not seeking to build his own thing anymore.
  I just see One Melchizedek Order...and I see places like Portsdown floating in and out of it like jetsam on the waves. They feel they have authority to blunder along, without Spirit order, without evangelistic gifting, without any sense of the urgency that comes when a Spirit congregation KNOWS it is celebrating the the Heavenly version of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Portdown meanders around...nobody calls it to attention...they do what they feel , when they feel like it, if they feel like it...but there is not that palpable feeling of anyone being LORD over them.
  Like they'd better jolly well hear what God Almighty is saying or they'll have their lampstand removed.
  Do you see what I mean? All four of us have gifting for them, but they refuse it. Derek's still chipping away. But they need to be called to account for the way they pick and choose who they want to hear. Because it is ALL Jesus. Paul Noble isn't less Jesus. Rohan isn't. Derek isn't and I am not.
• 

  20:18

  Paul Noble
  

  
  

  Chris let me be blunt too... I think YOU see yourself as an individual separated from the body of Christ also as none of this would matter to you! I see myself as part of the body in a local expression of church, a functioning member ( this is the problem with Facebook virtual christianity) where I'm rubbing up against other believers who like me still have some raw flesh! Yes God is working in this body but is it down to me - hardly in fact I've had very little to do with it I don't in any way control it even though I am recognised as an elder. Jacky Pullinger I think expressed the kind of Christianity you long for and actually I believe I agree with you actually but I just think you've got to get allot more real in terms of working this stuff out. To be honest I don't care what Portsdown do or whether its 3rd 4th or 5th level what counts is faith working through love else its just gnostic estoric nonsense!!
• Today
• 

  09:11

  Chris Welch
  

  
  

  Coward
• 

  09:44

  Paul Noble
  

  
  

  So what am I afraid of exactly?
  
  *********************
  
  This conversation was originated by other factors. Paul Butcher, an elder at Havant Church said that the leadership there were keen to have another session at trying to iron out differences with me. So it's a bit like a conundrum framed within a conundrum. I felt the points raised in the conversation  between Paul Noble and myself were too important to gloss over, and I would like others to learn here because this is a situation repeated in every town all over the earth.
  
  What situation? Differences between believers. And more specifically differences between age groups and those who believe they are receiving fresh light from the Lord.
  
  I will talk later about what Genesis 31 means to me and why what I felt was so strong it came out in a 1989 song, having been kicked out of Emsworth Church. But first I want to clarify the phrase
   "The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals".....
  
  Understanding it as Paul understood it, he was right to stress the need for a corporate manifestation of the Body of Christ. Just writing to each other on Facebook 1. doesn't answer the need for people to actually rub shoulders by living together and 2.No outsider is ever going to see anything, and be convinced by anything if it can't actually work in the real world. As Paul mentioned, they are seeing fruit from having made a Christmas lunch as a church for the building next door which is a kind of home for homeless and addicted people.
  
   I was meaning something different by the phrase.
  Paul Noble and Rohan Barton both felt misunderstood/unheard by Portsdown Church.
  Rohan is a rough and ready evangelist like Elaine Waterfield and Jackie Pullinger and has little truck with much of the middleclass value systems of Havant Church.
  Both Paul Noble and Derek Phillips have gained immensely from the teachings of Andrew Womack. Derek, for a time left the church out of sheer frustration, but now has returned and is chipping away sharing the revelation God has given him to whoever will listen. Paul and his wife went through incredible frustration when they were learning from Womack and other sources about the two subjects of healing and grace.  I remember Paul spent literally months with his back against the wall in Havant meetings, because he was not allowed to share on these things.
  
  About the time that Nancy Gilmore gave me a word from Ephesians "Awake O sleeper and christ shall give you light".....coupled with a strange experience of like a kick to the stomach when I read the back of a book recommended by Peter Stott (through Greg Haslam) which had none other than my second pastor on it from 1976....the very one who had described the Door Opening Word of Ern Baxter "Thy Kingdom Come" 1975 as something like "jolly enthusiatic preaching".  This is a similar statement to someone describing the Raising of Lazarus    by Jesus as a "Jolly fine entertainment trick."
  
  The effect was a Spirit warning about the nature of Havant Church once you peer below the foliage.
  So almost immediately I spoke direct to John Wilbraham, the main pastor and said if I heard him preaching any stuff that just wasn't in the Bible, i would make no bones about pointing it out, and probably in the service!  This used to be common practice in England and is probably how the House of Commons got its present format of two bodies of people correcting each other in no uncertain terms.Looked at humanly, i guess this would seem quite disruptive, so the end product is I have spent the last 2 years or so being told not to speak openly in Havant meetings. They seem to allow a certain amount of the prophetic gift, but the whole thing is extremely vague, and after my last prophecy in November, it was clear I had no voice there, so decided to do the Biblical thing and withdraw.
  
  I had my "fear of man" ripped off me at Emsworth, so previous to this I have openly expressed my views to the Havant leaders.  Paul and Rohan have kind of slipped away quietly.
  
  Now if you are just "seeing yourself as an individual" , you go off, pioneer a new church, again posting yourself or yourselves at the head of a new pyramid, which then takes the values you espouse and continues until the next "offspring" start questioning some of the things you are not saying, and if this is never resolved, they then slip away sideways, building yet another work.
  
  Now, as St Paul says, each new work presents something of the gospel of Jesus to a new bunch, and in this way Jesus is further lifted up and glorified.....but as St Paul says....and as I am trying to say
  THERE IS A BUT..............
  
  

  • Nobody reaches full maturity.

  • The landscape gets littered with more and more half-finished works of people. (Jesus warned about others laughing at our "half-built towers")
  • The previous works NEVER get called to account, and get away with murder (sometimes literally) 

  So the real meaning in this context of the phrase
  "The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals".....
  was that Paul was thinking of him just delivering a word to Peter Stott, off on his own, but I've seen them together. Peter is an amazing man of God with anointing similar to Mark Stibbe, and recently quite a similar kind of calling, but he can pull on the charm, and he does so with Paul, while not listening to a Word he or any of us is saying. And time is running out for Havant.
  
  
  
  I don't have "an individual eye". I'm looking at the Melchizedek Order. I'm seeing the sort of Word that Elaine Waterfield, Rohan barton , Derek Phillips, myself and Paul Noble are being used to bring, and watching how not one thing is received. Well God doesn't speak forever.
  
  The issue for me is not WHO gets to speak what
  The issue for me is to see in the Spirit where a church is at then feed in that which is lacking as I best can hear the Spirit....or best can hear the Spirit through other church members.
  
  The average local church at present does not receive from all its members. The average local church is immature and behaves in the fragmented way described in 1 Corinthians 12. If there is a full 12 tribes body of truth to be had......or 7 spirits of God.....
  
  your average church probably functions on a maximum of 4 tribes worth....
  Here for example are things you will never hear in Havant Church:
  
  

  • There's no sense of immediacy, of instancy in taking hold of the word. The Israelites fled Israel so quickly they weren't even allowed to leaven their bread for the journey. We too celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. One meaning is that we respond immediately by faith. Another meaning is that we hear by the Spirit and obey without having to understand it all. Understanding is like leaven. Understanding can be good, but often  our understanding waters down the Spirit revelation to a point where we don't feel we need the Spirit at all. This is a total lie...because only the Spirit Word is real seed, and has life in itself to bring forth life.

  
  
  
  

  • Some evangelists have managed to survive Havant's more or less anti-evangelistic nature, but most have long since left or been squeezed out
  • Sons of Issachar....or Barry Smith/Grant Jeffrey types don't get a hearing. Havant have no idea how close we are to world government
  • Virtually none of the genuinely God given revelation that we now consider commonplace here on blogs and the internet has filtered through to Havant.

  But nobody is going to learn anything if each successive generation hives off "sneaking away by night secretly".
  One of the main belief systems that change in the third level is to see "everything in God"....
  Even the angel coming out to greet Moses....you remember, when Zipporah his wife screams
  "Moses.....you are a man of blood to me.....Get yourself circumcised pretty darned quick!!!!"
  
  Good ,bad, indifferent.....Matthew 5 makes it clear that we have an inverse Kingdom. Whhat has the "appearance of bad" this side of the universe....IS GENUINELY WORKING SOMETHING OUT IN THE KINGDOM OF LIGHT....even if it is just the groanings of the woman...the earth....the whole of mankind....for this new creation to birth.
  
  This is the time of the NEW BREED.
  The THIRD LEVEL OF REVELATION
  which isn't as Paul Noble says...to be gnostic esoteric nonsense
  BUT IS the heartcry of millennia for the Ancient Doors of Psalm 24 to be lifted for the Eternal Kingdom to make His manifest entrance....and FIRST  in the reversal of the curse of Genesis 3 and in a race of manifesting sons.
  
  Again , why is Jacob significant.
  Jacob is the third Lifetime of God revelation....in the threefold package that was Abraham , Isaac and Jacob.
  
  BUT WHO IS IT WHO GOT THE NAME CHANGE?  Was it the Abrahamic revelation of faith. Nope.
  Was it the Isaac revelation of wells of Water like wells of the Spirit, the promises of God by faith?
  Nope
  It was Jacob, the deceiver....yet the one who pressed through to the end.....SEEKING THE VERY FACE OF GOD HIMSELF
  
  This is the generation of those who seek Him,
  Who seek Your face—even Jacob.Psalm 24:6

Andre Rabe who wrote Imagine coming to Curves Gosport

Chris, I have organised  Andre Rabe to come and share the word on  Friday 22nd July at Curves Gosport 7:30 - can you get the word out?
Paul Noble 

Yes 

Steve Harvey introduces Christ and Facebook furore

Steve Harvey stand up comedian ends his spot suddenly with the words....

If I had to announce Jesus....it'd be something like this.

Actually I posted this on Facebook about a year ago, but Jon Sidnell has just put it up on his blog. I'm posting it here, because of the furore I just caused on Facebook with these words:
Chris Welch
Everyone's seen the evangelical/charismatic bumper sticker "Don't follow me, follow Christ".While this crap might work in the States it frickin doesn't in the UK. How good that the real gospel is about The Way.It's safe to follow people in The Way

Friday at 19:15 via BlackBerry · Friends only ·LikeUnlike · .
Below, for those interested is the long ensuing conversation. But I'm posting this video on here to illustrate both sides of the coin. This video made me cry again. Why? Because this is not in church. This is a "freewill offering" done by a standup comedian of all people in a secular show surrounded by many unbelievers and some believers. He didn't need to do it. Professionally, it may have been suicide...but I think not. And the reaction of the audience, and him throwing the mike down just has me bawling again.

On the other hand Steve is exemplifying what the American Christian knows , then stopping short.......................

You see, our Jesus did all these things. You may have noticed He even played down the resurrection. It was about as muted as He could manage, bearing in mind how many angels were jumping down up and down in heaven, and how the Father was leaping around....but here on earth, Jesus got it down to a couple of angels, a welcoming committee of about 2, and one of those mistaking him for the gardner.

YOU SEE SAINTS...His resurrection wasn't really the point. And this is what I was meaning about this weak and feeble "Don't follow me (implication: I'm as lost as the rest of America) follow Christ".

NO....NO.....NO..... Jesus's point is this, caught by revelation in St Paul's Ephesians letter
chapter 3 verses 8 to 10.
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given,
to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery
which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known
through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

So this is the bit Steve missed and most Americans miss, because their gospel doesn't work.
It works on Sundays. People turn round their lives a bit. They know more about the Bible.Many like Bill Johnson's church in Redding have pressed through into an anointing for healing and supernaturally imparting blessing to folk. But once out the door.....hmmmm. Yes, they pray for people on the street, and God really steps in. But without a third level understanding of "As He is , so are we in the world", your Christianity just cannot really work.

But you know saints, the point of the resurrection of Christ is that the Old Adam we were tied into is now dead. Utterly utterly dead. Have you seen an 18 classification film of out and out violence? You know, when the characters have destruction written right across merciless faces.
Well Jesus set His face in a similar fashion in the Garden. He'd made His announcement the day before in the Upper Room. Notice faith speaks FIRST. "Now is the ruler of this world cast down". The first Adam, the appended powers and principalities went down into the grave in the dead Body of Jesus. He brutally brutally murdered them in His own Body. Worse than the worst 18 film carnage you ever saw. Not one bit of remorse and mercy showing in Jesus eyes. He smashed them all to pieces and left them there in hell to rot!!!
Then the Holy Spirit breathed life back into His mortal body, this time to move all of His imprisoned creation back into the quarters they were designed for. He caught us up together with Him in the heavenly places. We are not in the first Adam. We are in Christ.

But when Jesus was raised, He had a problem. How to play down the resurrection just long enough for the FINAL DENOUEMENT of ALL TIME. You see if His own resurrection had been overplayed, and frankly , it could have been....if even His birth got a whole angelic orchestra and choir......but you see this would have wrecked the final ACT of the play. This would be like Miss Marple telling you who the murderer was half way through, and wrecking the end of the programme.

THE POINT IS:
Jesus resurrection is SO REAL that it is going to be demonstrated in and through the Body of Christ NOW, this side of the second coming, through the BODY of CHRIST throughout the Earth. And indeed, individuals are the manifestation,the demonstration of this hidden wisdom of God even now, and ever since Pentecost.
It's just that in the same way 3000 of us were gobsmacked in Friends Meeting House in the Fountain Trust meeting in 1972 when we all started singing in tongues together, and wave upon wave of angelic goosebump swept left then right over our gathering.....when, hardly any of us knew singing in tongues existed, let alone how to do it....but here was heaven descending upon us to teach us.

Well , this is what I mean, when corporately, as we get caught up in the resurrection of Christ, catching the immensity of what has already been accomplished, we will in the same way find ourselves suddenly well out of our depth, doing things we had no idea were possible in a gravity ruled earth, and in a timebound earth. I already feel that I've been in some gobsmacking things in my time. Fountain Trust. The London House Church meetings. Darmstadt with Mother Basilea Schlink and her fruit trees and giant goldfish. The Dales Bible weeks with the angelic appearances, and experiences of spiritual warfare. The Presence of God in Emsworth Church. The Presence of God regularly and tangibly felt here in Havant Church, and so many jawdropping answers to prayer. But nobody, nobody can begin to imagine what power, what forcefield of heaven will be on a worldwide Body caught up with all three levels of understanding the revelation of Jesus Christ IN US , now, this side of heaven, demonstrating to principalities and powers,

that whereas they, IN THE MIDST of light, glory, praise, and heaven's throne, rose up to declare their own independence and entry into selfish darkness....

The Bride
standing by Night (Psalm 134) in the Holy place of God
Here on earth
making the choice
for the ONE TRUE KING
whose right it is to Bring all things into Himself
and Present them to the Father.

Now that gets an ovation !!!!!! Now do you understand my heart Connie Rockwell Cooke,having written me off as just another sectarian crackpot?
How close to madness is the True gospel. It is just too glorious for most Americans.


---------------------------


Connie Rockwell-Cooke In the U.S. there is a cult called The Way. I hope that's not what you are referring to. I would rather the bumper sticker stay the way it is and say "follow Christ". I don't know why you would have a problem with that if you are a true believer.
Friday at 19:21 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Carol Lucas Winkler Whhhhhaaaaat?????
Friday at 19:46 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch I tell you why it's cultish....we proclaim the Way , which is Christ in us as us. Don't follow me follow Christ is the kind of abstraction the diciples spent 3 years having surgically removed!!!
Saturday at 09:32 · LikeUnlike.Connie Rockwell-Cooke You believe a different gospel. I don't know what your game is but I don't have time for it. See ya.
Saturday at 09:41 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The Way we preach is not us ofcourse,this is the very apostolic Zeus club we are removing ourselves from as did Paul in Acts.No we preach a Living Way which we model,which is Christ in us the Hope of glory.Do not take offense at the Truth.What on Earth would you have done when Jesus said Eat My flesh
Saturday at 10:15 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Paul Noble Hey Chris you've got my anointing for being misunderstood LoL - if we are "true believers" we are like Christ because he is in us I have his spiritual DNA - so actually if we are true disciples and following Jesus - ie we are in the way a...long with hundreds of other believers. Its ok for others to follow us ( Paul said follow me ) he wasn't being proud he just knew who he was in Christ. If I am truly discipling others they will be following us not in a cultish fashion but because they see beyond us because they see Christ in us.See more
Saturday at 11:03 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Chris Welch Imagine will you the first time a man widely perceived as a Rabbi looks you in the eye and says Eat my flesh, and drink My blood. That's all you've got to go on plus the healings and miracles, which actually wouldn't be so different to look... at than a Benny Hinn meeting or Morris Cerullo meeting.You've got no resurrection at this point, just a very human looking man saying this, and "follow me"....and talking blasphemy about God being His Father.See more
Saturday at 14:05 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The furore we have just seen here, is exactly what Jesus experienced in John 6. This is exactly the reason the Spirit gets people to use different phraseologies and pictures...because we "have the name of being alive, but are not". We say w...e're Jews but are not. Traditional American orthodoxy says it is perfectly OK to say to people to follow Christ,but don't follow us. What does this produce? It produces a Catholicism which sits snugly alongside the Mafia in Italy, as they murder their next victim then go to mass confession on Saturday. Absolutely people should follow us, until they too have learned to live in the Way too. Enough of American crap. We here in the UK want the gospel that's in the Bible. The one that stirs up cities and centuries of empty religious mouthings.See more
Saturday at 14:05 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Just had this flash of revelation: If Jesus was driving a car , and you were following him in yours, then it would be fairly logical for me to follow you and we would arrive at the same destination! I wouldn't say don't follow me follow Jesus! Thats what the Christian WAY is - a motor - WAY LoL.
Saturday at 14:37 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Have you listened to my latest musical creation based on Psalm 84 - funny it talks in that Psalm about those who are on a Journey
Saturday at 14:39 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble http://www.envizu.co.uk/media/Psalms/Psalm%2084.mp3
Saturday at 14:39 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch While we were locked in the darkness of our minds...and this as Christians,we experienced a kind of Romans 1, tossing out judgements at each other according to our particular brand of reasoning. Then grace came and nervously at first we sta...rted crawling out of our tight little left-brain boxes and started to see that the gospel Has Us rather than the other way around. That the Way is Extremely obvious, with a Cross right in the centre of it, but with an umpire of peace in our heart, with a LIGHT that we walk and have fellowship in with all other believers, and with a surrounding universe thatSee more
Saturday at 15:01 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch loves righteousness and indeed is increaslingly set free "as the sons of God see more light on what are ALREADY are the riches they have NOW in Christ".It's not something locked up in a box as the exclusive preserve of a super breed of Christian. It's just Jesus taking us wherever we are and asking us,"Seeing you've made a mess of your natural and spiritul lives how abou Me coming in to live in you As you."
Saturday at 15:02 · LikeUnlike.Bonnie Morris Paul said.. "follow me as I follow Christ"
Saturday at 15:08 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Exactly!
Saturday at 15:09 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Chris. The real gospel is about Christ, and him crucified...but just like in the days after Jesus left, some thought it foolishness. If you want to follow, "The Way", why wouldn't you say to follow the way, who is Christ? Jesus said, "I am ...the way, the truth, and the life." It makes no sense for us to preach any other gospel...unless your way is an occult, you are a Universalist, or because you live in the Uk and people have been imprisoned for offending others with the preaching Christ and the cross. Brother....THE WAY is Christ. "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation."See more
Saturday at 16:49 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Carol, I think you are missing the point if you don't mind me saying so! As you say the way is Christ because no man can come to the Father but by him but the way was the terminology the first disciples used in Acts. It was at Antioch they ...were first called Christians. Chris's original point is that the religious statement don't follow me follow Christ is rubbish and it is! If you are following Jesus and I am following Jesus then we are heading in the same direction! Paul could say follow me as I follow Christ because he was a signpost to Christ and likewise if we are following Jesus we are like lights pointing people to the truth. People should see Christ in you.See more
Saturday at 17:56 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The worst thing about the American gospel is that it is precisely the halfbuilt tower Jesus warned the whole world against....the one that would invite the world to scoff and laugh at the Precious Name of the One God.(As I've said on my blo...g,Brits don't even have a quarter built tower and believe the gospel of Dawkins)
The BEST thing about the gospel is it WORKS. The American one doesn't, because it invites Jesus into your heart, then you spend the rest of your life as a schizophrenic, half you, half Jesus, trying to subvert Galations 2:20 into some kind of fiction. So what you end up with is follow Jesus, but leave me out of the picture because I'm a hopeless schizophrenic.See more
Saturday at 17:58 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Ofcourse you are correct about the gospel being about Christ and Him crucified Carol.Let's leave USA out of it and continue with Catholics. Catholics wholeheartedly agree with that sentence Carol,but you know what.....it doesn't do a thing ...for them.We both know the sentence is correct, so then we have to work out by listening to the Spirit, what unspoken shortcircuit is causing continued spiritual death in Catholics. All I'm doing here is a similar process, I'm flagging up what is it in an American's belief system that thinks it's OK to disassociate themselves from someone anyone can follow. And judging by the reaction today, I'd say the Holy Spirit is touching a major shortcircuit.See more
Saturday at 18:35 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch thru DS Lewis Axberg FOR THE CREATION WAITS IN EAGER EXPECTATION FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD*JESUS CHRIST*TO BE REVEALED* God wants to mature a people and fill them with all the fullness of God.
Then the glory of the Lord will fill th...e whole body of the sons of God in the fullness thus far known only by our glorious Forerunner and Head. His glory shall flow and flow and fill the earth. Then shall be fulfilled the words of the Saviour, "The works that I do shall ye do also, and GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL YE DO."See more
Saturday at 19:06 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Cliff Gableman I'd rather follow the car vs most so called believers
Saturday at 20:57 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler I still don't understand what you are saying...are you saying we become Christ or God?
Saturday at 21:02 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch What's the alternative of eating Christ's flesh? Which bit's you and which bit's Him after the meal,huh?
Saturday at 21:04 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler You know...all he was talikg about was receiving salvation from the shedding of his blood, and feeding on his word. He was the word sent in the flesh. He explained it when he told them his words were Spirit and life. Whoever wants the truth will see it. Some didn't want it...just like today
Yesterday at 00:03 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler So what you are saying is we are literally Christ....or God. Isn't that what satan wanted....to be God. Christ lives in me and i am a child of God but i am not God. I heard a Universalist say if we only knew who we were we would bow down to each other. This way of thinking goes way back. I do not believe we become God or gods. We are his body...but this is not literal.
Yesterday at 01:00 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler About eating his flesh...you still don't get it. Jesus explained he was talking about his word, not his body.
Yesterday at 01:02 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Carol - the Bible says "we are partakers of the divine nature". "We are children of God and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be we know that when he appears we shall be like him" - new birth is more wonderful than just an evangelica...l free ticket to heaven it is an internal transformation - you're born again spirit is identical to his spirit (romans 8 : 11). How the heck do you think the Holy Spirit could reside in us if the vessel wasn't compatible? Yes our soul is not transformed yet - we still sin & our bodies to but our brand new spirit man is exactly like Jesus & cannot sin, it is completely righteous. It is when we realise that we ARE HOLY & RIGHTEOUS not just legally but because now that is our very nature that a process of renewal can begin from the inside out!See more
Yesterday at 08:36 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler I agree...what i wouldn't agree with, is that we become God. We are children of God, born of his Spirit...that doesn't make us God, himself. There is a difference. We are one with him, in that we have his Spirit...but we are not God, himsel...f. I do believe in the grace msg. I do believe, in my spirit i've been made Holy. If you believe you have become God, or that you have become a god, i would have to disagree with you on this. Some eastern religions believe they become god. Some, "Christians" believe that they are, "little gods". Being a child of God makes me a spirit being...not just flesh, but it still doesn't make me God.See more
Yesterday at 08:49 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble PS many believers are trying to be like Christ , trying to be good Etc not realising they ALREADY are like him and as John in his Epistle points out then if they are not then they are not born again!
Yesterday at 08:49 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler BTW...when i lived in Virginia Beach, i met people who belonged to a group called, "The Way". I hope you aren't of this same group. These people ended up on the news, because they were having bible studies and they had been drugging the dri...nks. I was invited, but i didn't go...they were just so off on their beliefs. It just sounds strange how The Way has been brought up, like it's better than the gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope i'm wrong and you all aren't part of this group.See more
Yesterday at 08:54 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble There is a sense that we are gods - in the day that you eat you will be as gods - so even Adam was created in the image of God. Jesus is THE son of God & we are sons. Obviously we are not God he is Father, Son & Holy Spirit & complete in himslef - but as I say even in the natural order man is a little lower than the angels but is obviously far above the animal creation.
Yesterday at 08:55 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler I am not a little god, i am not a god, and i am not the God. I am not Christ.
Yesterday at 08:56 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Carol - no we are not of "the way" that you are describing sounds freeky & I can understand your concern!
Yesterday at 08:56 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Paul...what you quoted, was a lie from the devil to Eve. In the day that you eat you will be as gods. This was the temptation...the lie, the deception...and she fell for it. This didn't mean we would be gods. Apparently, people are being deceived by the same lie, today, that was used on Adam and Eve.
Yesterday at 08:59 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler The same trap...the same temptation, the same devil, but in a different form...false religion. "you will be as gods" i am glad that you aren't of that group.
Yesterday at 09:01 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Got to go now - going to church where we don't do drugs! look at what Jesus said when he quoted the psalm about being as gods in Johns Gospel
Yesterday at 09:03 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler What he really said is...it is written that i said you are gods, but he didn't say it. Read the whole chapter, in context. NIght Paul...thanks for the talk.
Yesterday at 09:04 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch If we have left brain discussions there are certain subjects that are off limits.The leftbrain cannot handle them. This is why Proverbs 3:5-6 is so vital.
Yesterday at 09:50 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Just reading it now John 11 35 Has it not been written in your law I said you are gods ( quotation from Psalm 82 ). The devil not only deceives by blatant lying - he is also an angel of light and will give you half truths or cause excess ...that will hide a truth. What do you think being a "son of god" really means? The angels were called sons of God but now because of the incarnation, the death & resurrection of Jesus and ascension we actually bare the image of the heavenly 1 cor 15. Religion will always downgrade us to think we are nothing but the fact is I died on a cross 2000 yrs ago in Christ & the life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God!See more
Yesterday at 13:00 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The sting of any talk about "gods"- whether we are or not,actually comes from the fall.The left-brain is a useful tool for step by step procedures but it really cannot handle this kind of subject. Why? Because even if we are saved,the best you can say of our minds is that they are still in detox. We were drunk on our own "independence".Our minds alienated from the life of God.
Yesterday at 14:39 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch If you are a Christian you notice God doesn't answer a lot of our left-brain questions.You actually see this unroll in real time in the book of Job.And when God doesn't answer , we humans,who are all soaked already with the stench of the de...vils lie that God isn't good, add this as further proof that God doesn't love us. But God loves us so much,it's just that to even communicate with us He has to teach us a new language.We have to learn Spirit. Which for a people that are locked into the material world being the sum total of all existence...this is really foreign. He says "Enter into my courts with praise and thanksgiving" We look absolutely nonplussed.cont.....See more
Yesterday at 14:40 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch How is that relevant? But it turns out it is the quickest way of making us aware of the new language of Spirit.The experience of baptism in the Holy Spirit is part of our repentance,our turning around.Meta Noia means either beyond nous, mov...ing beyond the darkened confines of what we see,hear,touch,taste...to believing every Word that we hear God speak. Or meta means joining alongside the mind of God...but both meanings mean that our mind never stays the same.See more
Yesterday at 14:41 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch So , saturated with the devil's lie that we can be independent gods in our own right....even after becoming Christians, any talk of us being joined to God still passes through our Marvel Comic , or Greek god, idea of what this may mean. So,... really our leftbrain doesn't know where to start on the subject. So the quickest thing is that God gets us moving in the Spirit. Which is why Paul was firm in his instructions in how we run churches and meetings. Every denomination and virtually every new church completely ignores the Word of God on this, and runs churches with CEO pastors who pull all the strings. But inthe beginning it was not so. The truth of WHO WE ARE is in John 15 , we are branches in God's vine. But God's life is both vine trunk and branch. He has caught us up in Himself again at the Cross....it's just that Christians are still catching up.See more
Yesterday at 14:50 · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble I see what your driving at Chris - in fact natural human beings are all behaving like little gods, independent wills resisting the will of the almighty - selfishly only concerned with their own little worlds. Jesus came to serve others and lay down his life. He emptied himself.
Yesterday at 15:06 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The other description by Jacob Boehme from 400 years ago is the Life of God has a Cross in it.Jesus was the Lamb slain before the world was created.To be caught up into God's Life is to be caught up into a life of "going to hell for others" or Hebrews 13:13. It's stamped right through His Life like letters in a stick of rock.
Yesterday at 15:11 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch When we're still young in God we spend our exertions like Peter with Jesus, and Agabus with St Paul, saying Jesus Life is prosperity and blessing, you don't need to go up to Jerusalem!!!! But 3rd levellers spend their life going up to Jerusalem! It's in their bloodstream.
Yesterday at 15:14 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Paul...John 11:25, notice he said it had been written in THEIR law. This was man's law, not God's law. Jesus was just using this to show if they believed man's law concerning men being gods, then why couldn't they believe he was God.
Yesterday at 16:06 · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Levelers, and the left brain? I think i will bow out of this conversation now...it is just too wierd. But i will be praying for you...that you will open your eyes to the truth. I think you are following some strange teachings. Get into the ...bible and ask God to give you understanding. If you follow man instead of God...you will never know the truth that can set you free. The bible says, "Do not let satan beguile you of the simplicity of Christ." It is a simple, straight forward gospel. Our brains cannot keep us from the truth...be it right side, or left side. I am concerned for you. I will be praying...See more
Yesterday at 16:16 · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch I could have said mind, if it was offputting...but from brain scans this seems to be so...it is just a celebration of how much recent science backs up the reality that the Bible's books always stated. We are NOT this little portion of mind ...that tries to get everything figured....nor is spirit confined to a brainbox either. Our lives are now hidden with Christ in God. Sorry this is all scaring you.That doesn't mean it isn't true.See more
23 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch As for levelers,even my close friends don't use that....the Bible in 1 John 2 uses the lingo children,young men,Fathers.All a 3rd leveller is ,is like all the authors that line all the Christian bookshops in all the world,a mature ministry ...in God. Unlike local ministries that we are acquainted with, people like Bonhoeffer,Madame Guyon,Watchman Nee,Mother Teresa,Richard Wurmbrand,Spurgeon,Wesley....have been chosen repeatedly throughout the Earth as having a mature voice in God.If what they say is not simple enough for you then rest assured they believe a simple gospel....but they have worked with this simplicity way beyond the American bumoper sticker, to where it is safe to follow the Way they travelled along in God.See more
23 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Carol - sorry thats not what it says in - Psalm 82:6 "i said you are gods you are all sons of the most high" - where Jesus is quoting from! No he was saying that why did they find it so hard to believe that Jesus was THE incarnate son of God when even in the natural they were created in the image of God.
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler I wasn't talking about the one in Psalms Paul...Chris, is, "The Way" an organization? And i still don't get the leveler thing.
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble The devil tempted the Eve by saying in the day you eat your eyes will be opened and you will be LIKE GOD. This was a lie because she was ALREADY like God. The devil hates it because he wanted to be like God. He can't create only destroy. Ma...n is created in the image and even though fallen and marred by sin you can see the beauty in what he creates. Jesus was tempted by satan at the core of his identity by the temptation IF you are the son of God. Jesus didn't need to prove anything!See more
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Yes but Carol that is what Jesus is quoting in John 11:25!!!
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler There is a difference in Jesus and us...he is God. We are not. We are thankful to be the children of God.
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble And the Way - have a look in the Acts the early disciples were called followers of the way. It was at Antioch that they were first called christians!
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler ‎(KJV)John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Why did you bring up John 11:25?
21 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler Paul, let's go back to what Chris posted...why did he say don't follow me follow Christ, is crap, but The Way is the safe way and it is what the real gospel is about? This does not line up with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Following Christ is a good thing. Jesus said he was the way, how can you seperate?
20 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Yes I agree we are not God but we are LIKE God because we are his children & sons - just like our own children are in our image. Adam was like God because he was created in God's image but if we are born again it is even more so because we ...have taken on the image of the heavenly man we are not only in Christ but Christ is in us- the hope of glory! In Peter its says - we are partakers of the divine nature - new birth is in some way like the incarnation - we are born from above. We don't really understand the mystery of it but I'm being perdantic because its clearly what the scriptures teach and anything less lowers what God has done through Jesus!See more
20 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Carol - yes its got a bit far off the point! I know Chris personally so I can vouch for you he's not trying to lead you astray ( a bit difficult to understand) but thats what Peter said about the Apostle Paul! Of course there is nothing wro...ng with following Christ but I think he's taking issue with nice trite statements that are not the truth - really maybe its just a car bumper sticker! I can understand you getting a bit upset about the Way stuff as far as I know Chris isn't in any heretical sect called the Way but as I said before it is a term used by the early disciples so its not a bad term to use.See more
20 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Oops sorry I meant John 10:34!
20 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Carol Lucas Winkler I think it may be how he put it...it looks like the bumper sticker upset him. I just don't understand why. I don't think anything should be so deep that someone can't explain it in simple terminology. I think i asked a legitimate question. Paul, you told me about the disviples...but Chris hasn't explained, "The Way" yet. I don't like arguing...just wanted to know why The Way is safer, and what, exactly, it is. :)
20 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch One of the meanings of the bumper sticker (which in the context of driving,was always meant light heartedly...but 20 years later is wearing thin, especially in view of the Christianity that is exported from the USA on TV and here on Faceboo...k)is the disconnect between asking Jesus the way,and a Christian's responsibility to become the answer to the question. Commonly the States version of Christianity is ,ask Jesus into your heart,get your sins forgiven,join a church and try your best to live a good Christian life. The real gospel, and in fact the meaning behind the story of every single saint in BOTH Old and New Testaments is that we follow Jesus into His Way for us.See more
19 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble But 1161 this 5124 I confess 3670 unto thee 4671, that 3754 after 2596 the way 3598 which 3739 they call 3004 heresy 139, so 3779 worship I 3000 the God 2316 of my fathers 3971, believing 4100 all things 3956 which 3588 are written 1125 in 2596 the law 3551 and 2532 in 1722 the prophets 4396:
19 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch This Way is unique for all of us, but is tailormade to lead us to the Truth? What truth? That every mouth be stopped! That neither we nor any other human is capable of living the Christian life even once saved.This awful truth brings us to ...the kind of Truthfulness and desperation before God that this time we really mean business....at which point we learn it has to be Christ actually living our life as us. Not 2 peas in a pod, sharing the limelight.....but as Paul has shared,the reality of Chris and Paul crucified 2000 years ago, and now NOT I, but Christ actually living our lives.....yes through our souls,through our bodies....but Christ so fused with my spirit, that there is no join. "As He is, so ARE we in the world"See more
19 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch I meant to spell out that this is the deeper meaning to I am the Way the Truth and the Life.It is much more dynamic and 3dimensional than the States version, which only really gets people to salvation and pewsitting
19 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Load of references to the way in Acts more than I bargained for in fact!
17 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch It really was the word for Christianity. The other thing that's good is it implies movement and not doctrine.Other saints reduce it all to THE WAY that is Love. Everything else is self for self....some kind of agenda going on.
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Yes thats an interesting thought Chris that the way suggests movement. The christian walk is a journey of faith. I wonder why the early believers were first called christians at Antioch?
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch It was probably the gobsmacking shock that here were the world's first people who had somehow missed a stage....(They weren't Jews,hadn't had thousands of years of pre-conditioning culturally) and here they were ex-Pagan thieves,homosexuals,liars,rapists,beaming out Christ in everything they said and did. You must admit,if this was the first time in history....it would be gobsmacking!
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Oh...and not one of them had a donkeycart sticker with don't follow me, follow Christ...because their radiance and love showed they followed Christ, so others even created a nickname: Christian

New Song - Nothing Is Impossible - Paul Noble

Maurice Smith: Will the true apostle please stand up?

Chris Welch on Facebook...........Gracebook....I'dlike to share about a ministry to give you an example of how Word works. He was big in the 70s. Maurice Smith.

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Judy Povey bring it on :o)
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch There was Bryn Jones,Gerald Coates,,Arthur Wallis ,Dave Mansell,John Noble,George Tarleton,Terry Virgo, John McLaughlin and many many more taking the renewal out of tonguetalkin denominational sectarianism into a "word hearing cloud followin'" People.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Nearly all of them would have used the word apostle to describe themselves, and some like Terry still would.....but I want to tell you a Cinderella Kingdom fact.PROBABLY Only ONE WAS....and he to this day probably doesn't know....because most saw him as a prophet. Maurice Smith.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Judy Povey That's interesting. I don't remember the name Maurice Smith although of course I remember most of the other names. I was part of a harvesttime fellowship (Bryn Jones) in Ipswich for a few years. The "shepherding" style of leadership eventually drove most of us out and we re-grouped independently. Now that same fellowship is in the New Frontiers family.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch It may be all the others were "apostles" of what Ern Baxter referred to (speaking of David in Thy Kingdom Come) as a ZIKLAG job.....God's initial purpose of positioning people. But who remembers a solitary word of what Gerald and John Noble and George Tarleton were saying 40 years on? Yet first in a book called 5.5.55 ,then in "Amazing Grace" some 40 years before Steve McVey, Paul Anderson Walsh, and Darin Hufford are all the TRULY important apostolic foundations of a REAL Christian life.
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Maurice is virtually unknown now too.....but his foundation is the only living vibrant one of all of them here on the net. The others knew how to get you saved and filled with the Spirit.So did Christine and I when we were 13, but we never ...called ourselves apostles....or anything else really. No....I think we've all lived under a 40 year illusion that because you're a Type A personality with an organisational ability to hire a school hall and a worship group,and preach a reformed "Baptist" type "You are not measuring up to this New Testament Law" Word, this is truly an apostle. Baloney!See more
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch The Word of the grace of Christ layered into a believer's insides,imparting to them faith and hope is what an apostle is. In 1981 Maurice twigged finally what Norman Grubb was going on about, and saw the fulness of "Christ in Maurice as Maurice".Others saw a weak man crippled by paralysing fears and gutwrenching nerves....Maurice now understood himself as "God's grace made perfect in weakness" "a vessel container of God's glory."
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Hasn't it been an interesting road here in the UK and the States Judy? Both the Fort Lauderdale crew who were a big feature for us in Amersham....Don Basham lit the fuse in 67 or 8, and the Pioneer,New Frontiers,Harvesttime crews were ident...ical in bringing Word,bringing the start of Church order.....but not being properly 3rd level,in the longterm built nothing more than "human franchises" from which devastations Spirit people are crawling from Terminator film-style all over our 2 countries. May God bless the net,so long as we have freedom to share.See more
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Reading thru this did you understand "the only living vibrant" foundation was the one Maurice brought as opposed to the other 70s names.....I didn't mean as opposed to Steve McVey or others now on the net. Wanted to avoid confusion and pain here.
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Judy Povey It has been an interesting road Chris. How I loved listening to Ern Baxter - he came to the Anglia Bible Week in 1983. And first of all we called our groups house churches which they soon weren't because we moved into community halls and ...we soon got stuck in legalism again. But we're all groping for the truth and I've struggled with the paradoxical (?)/conflicting Biblical themes and narratives and finally come home to trusting in JESUS. Is that what Maurice meant by "the only living vibrant" foundation? Is there anything on the web about Maurice Smith?See more
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Interesting Chris. True apostles never draw attention to themselves but to Christ. They are the pioneers of the faith because they lead the way, they plant new things overturn the status quo. Those guys probably did have apostolic anointing... but were also responsible for error in the church (the heavy shepherding movement) because they saw themselves as apostles overseeing what God had not given them any authority for. Unfortunately the charismatics have still not got over the control that introduced. In the Brethren movement the same thing happened, anointed men of God rose up and paved the way for the people of God but then became institutionalised and people looked to them rather than God.See more
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Not that I've seen....in fact if you google you might end up in the excerpts I've been putting up,I think firstly on Dan Bowens Baxter blog and mine too.
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_New_Church_Movement
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Exactly how long do you think itis Paul that we get away from believing the work of God is something like believing on His spoken Word something like Mary in Nazareth....to the point where we chase round building "things'....as if we can bu...ild the Kingdom in Lego or something.We can't even put together a human in a womb....in flesh and blood terms....how do we end up with the notion that we can "put Christ together on earth ". Is this an advanced Lego kit that only the Brethren and charismatics know about? Have I been reading my Bible wrong all this time ?
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble I was thinking - the metaphor the Bible uses is living stones - Lego is definately not in my Bible LoL. Those stones are all different sizes and colours and shapes & also change when your not looking! It is only when they come to Christ they fit into this glorious temple that God is building!
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Abundant Grace Church Always great to hear such people
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch I'm really young in understanding how "builder-types" work. It is alien to me as a musician/philosopher type. I noticed the ease with which the St Matthew-types, or St Peter types , or Rory and Wendy types, or Stan Warren of Emsworth..or Andy Elmes guys have built a framework before breakfast.They are made that way in God.cont..
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Outside of God though,they seem to build things and call them God. As I was saying,I naively went along with everyone's notions that they were apostolic.....but now I see them as builder types,but it isn't the same thing at all as Fred Prui.tt or others who are actually laying the Word of "Christ as you" in folk. This level has NOTHING to do with buildings...or even meetings,directly....this is to do with impacting people's life for the WHOLE of the rest of their lives....DIVINE encounters. Like when Jessie Penn Lewis was a few hours with Norman Grubb....and he was still reeling with what hit him at his "seeing level" at age 97. It makes the toytown stuff in our locality pretty cheap!!!See more
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Paul Noble Interesting again Chris - I think you will find that the musician/artist/philosopher types are often prophetically gifted (I am partly of that bent). HOWEVER I believe both giftings (Apostolic & prophetic) need more than their natural equiv...alent Eg in the secular you get these sort of giftings in the art & business world. I do wonder sometimes whether people are operating more in a natural gifting rather than a spiritual one and that is why we end up with yet another structure or music that is just a copy of what the world is doing with christian words.

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first appeared here in Chris's Preblog on Dan Bowen's ErnBaxter blog Comments section

Yesterday when I got up my eyes caught a book I have not noticed for over 20years...by Maurice Smith
called 20th Century Pilgrim ISBN 0 947599 03 7 publishers VINE. here is Chapter 1. If you like it I could do chapter 2 which is on Maurice discovering he is dead (in a Romans kind of way).
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Go on, go on, go on, go on,
Go on, go on, go on;
Go on, go on, go on, go on,
Go on. go on, go onl
I first heard those words 'go on. go on' from Henry Holloway some twenty-five years ago. The de-nomination without a name that we were in, had no set rules and regulations, or fixed doctrines and dogmas; but we had a great deal of unwritten liturgy. For instance, we used no Christian names,well hardly any. Everyone was Brother this and Brother that. Brother Holloway was around eighty years old I guess, so of course he naturally became','Old Brother Holloway'. I don't think anyone has influenced me more. He was a university graduate, in his youth - a rarity in those days - and spoke 'with a highly cultured diction, which disguised an
almost constant chuckle. He was diminutive of stature, neatly dressed with a watch-chain resplendant across his striped waistcoat. There was a permanent twinkle in his eyes. Time and again he would sidle up to me and whisper a word of wisdom in my ear. This particular 'go on' word has been with me ever since the day he looked me straight in the eye and delivered it with all the seriousness of a Shakespearian actor.

Now two and a half decades later, on a sweltering hot Sunday afternoon, the first of August. 1982 I am pursuing those same words 'Go on, go on as they’re emblazoned on-.the back of a young man's T-shirt in the Dartford half-marathon. I'm now a veteran runner and strenuously trying to maintain form to keep up with the wearer, but I do so enjoy seeing young men, and women on full stretch for the tape. Little does the T-shirt wearer know that his disappearing vest is speaking volumes to me in another dimension; the dimension that O.B.H. had opened up to me time and time again. He finished his course, we're still running on.I seem destined to be influenced by old men. At about the same time as I was listening to the thoughts of Brother Holloway, I used to sit at conferences and watch the face of an old gentleman who I would estimate was well into his seventies. This an's name was Oliphant - Brother Oliphant of course. Watchman Nee once called this old warrior The Womb of theWest, and  across the lines of his face were he signs of suffering and I knew just a few of the details and the cost involved. Looking at him across the conference hall I grew to respect that lined face and silently asked God to give me some of the peace    tranquility I could see written there. Somehow,those dissimilar twins of gaiety and suffering, so admirably portrayed in two of the Lord's old gentlemen, have set a course for me through the middle part of my life. They hadn't stopped going on. They
were satisfied but not satiated. My mind was made up; I'm in the race of joy and suffering for a lifetime. I didn't know it then, but I was beginning to accept the need for darkness as well as light, to make room for pain and sorrow; to receive the negative side of God and his creation as well as-the positive. Perhaps then I saw all the unpleasantness as mere back-drop to  the good God wanted to do in the world, whereas the years have begun to teach me how essential suffering is to produce character and to enable us to finally reign with him ...but I begin to run away with myself. Much of the time, this was a light-hearted period of life. Jesus
and me, in good fellowship, and my acceptability as a preacher falsely giving me the impression that
I was making really good headway in this Christian business. Looking back I can see there was a lot of self-
effort in my believing, but no doubt it's all been necessary. So often we have to labour to enter into our rest. Then I felt I knew so much of God's eternal plan end purpose. Although I vehemently declared there was no set pattern for church structure and order in the New Testament, I had secretly come to believe that we were nearer the ideal than most. I'd swallowed volumes of Watchman Nee and T. Austin-Sparks and spent hours under the expert tuition of Robert Warke from Ireland. I felt ready to set in order much that was awry in the church scene. Oh my, what the intervening years have contributed towards the maturity I saw in those aged saints. It’s been painful and it’s been fun; like everything else I’ve encountered with God, ther’s a paradox to grasp and live with.

I suppose we all start with a vision. For me, overriding everything else in my life were the the words of Jesus’ prayer in John 17 “that they may all be one…that the world may believe that you have sent me”.
There seemed so few in those early days that were concerned for a togetherness. Plenty were ready to go for an old style evangelism, but the results were unimpressive, except in the case of a few very talented individuals. It was the corporate nature of our life gripped me. Somehow it wasn't just that I had etemal life now that I had believed in Christ, but more importantly that we shared it together. We really were members of one another and were meant to be together, get on together,and be such a visible provocation to the world that they'd want to know what we had got. This all seemed a million miles away from the experience
going on around me, where all I could see-was .break-up and division, back-biting and hurts, and people so full of insecurity that they didn't seem any better off than folk who had not experienced the great transaction of salvation through knowing Jesus Christ. In fact, to be honest, very often they seemed worse off. I remember doing a very simplistic survey once, when I observed over a period, and recorded, that the Christians in my street looked, on average, more miserable than their non-Christian counter-parts. There just had to be an
answer to such a sorry condition, "where the recipients seemed to have an initial experience of joy ; and first love, and then gradually sink back into a knowledge of their position, without the attendant radiance that was there at the beginning. Actually as l say, I didn't fully identify with this morbid Christian scene for several years because I was able to hide behind my preaching and natural charisma,but the crunch came when I finally felt dry. wearied of marking time. and began to search for more light and truth . The vision of the Church continually gripped me; "That they might be one' pounded in my ears day and night. Here was I with the Normal Christian Life and Concerning Our Missions To be called the Normal Christian Church Life
off pat; but I couldn't make it work. I was learning that revelation was not enough, and that the Father's way is to allow suffering to come across our path. In order to guide us into the realising of what we have seen.' He wanted what we had taken hold of to take hold of us, so that there was no strain in our living.How could I get all these Christians to be a happy band of pilgrims? How could we live the joyous overcoming life I saw portrayed as normal in so many New Testament Christians and others since them down the centuries? How could we in our generation produce men and women of the calibre of those I so admired? The visible church to my century was a laughing stock, the ready prepared material for the comedians and cartoonists. I could
no longer hide my grief and despair that. for all the ardent preaching of the vociferous minority, we were having next to no impact.

The arrival of the world-wlde charismatic movement and the consequent opening up to the Holy Spirit made a difference. But in my own experience, after the initial course of joy and the use of several spiritual gifts, I still found that life was far short of all I knew it could be. I thought the baptism in the Holy Spirit, as so many called the . experience, was going to settle everything, but far from it In fact. it seems that for me, that  experience marked the commencement of a long period of severe dealings. Maybe as John the Baptist warned we were to be baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire .Everyone I listened to conveniently forgot
the fire. They never promised me that . I usually tell folk that ever since the days of my deeper knowing
of the Hdy Spirit, life has been quite dreadfel. Sorry if that doesn't/fit the recognised charismatic theology. but it's the truth. Like Jacob, I've experienced 'the gate of heaven' and 'a dreadful place' both at the same time. There has been a new sense of the presence of the Lord; a new joy, plus depths of darkness and despair that I never dreamed existed.

Certainly had I known the path ahead I would never have joined, but for me the Christian life seems best summed up in the title of Norman Grubb's book, 'Once Caught. No Escape!' Most of us are in for keeps.
The original slide-away from the joyous consciousness of his life within me and into the subtle dependence upon laws and methods and arbitrary standards of performance, had been instigated almost from the moment of my conversion. On that magic day in 1955, I had given my life to Christ; lock. stock and barrel, as best I knew how. I awoke the next day with the assurance of my reconciliation to God and a feeling of peace."

Everything seemed okay. There was now no desire for the thirty cigarettes a day which were my previous assurance of some semblance of calm amidst the storms of earning a living and bringing up a young family. As soon as work on the first day was over I shot down to the rectory to tell my good news to the rector. Dr. G. C. B. Davies, who had been instrumental in my final capitulation to God and I wanted him to share the enjoyment. He was, I was informed, at the village hall to officiate at a function, so I ran all the way there and burst in with my proclamation. Collis was delighted and confided that the Lord had told him that one person
would be converted under his ministry in the Cotswold village of Kingham where we all lived at the time. He moved on to pursue a more academic calling and was soon a lecturer at a University and eventually became Canon of Worcester Cathedral.

But I digress. I asked where a close friend was, for I wanted her to join the party. I had a river of living water
gushing up inside of me and I wanted everyone to drink. Soon I found her, and with the strains of the amateur musicians in the background I shared with her my testimony. She was absolutely overjoyed and we laughed together in quite a natural manner. I followed on the conversation by saying. as the river of life continued to rise in me:
'Can I have this dance please?'

It was a kind of celebration act to me. I can't  remember now whether she accepted or not, because I was so stunned by her reply. She leaned forward and whispered to me, 'Christians don't dance, Maurice!'
0h dear,' was my word in response. It was a strangely disappointing interchange and I was temporarily confused. However, I soon recovered and sallied forth into my new found Christian experience with great enthusiasm, but almost imperceptibly the first chain of bondage had gone round my leg. A law had been applied. It was not the inward working of God writing in my heart, but the external application of a mode of behaviour that was to gradually stifle the thrilling experience , of walkjng with the presence of God's spirit within me. I had taken a step away from grace, which meant God doing something for me  and I had moved into an area of law, which meant me doing something for God. And this had happened within
twenty-four hours of my conversion!

I can now see that like many Israelites of old, I was born a free true child of God, but born in a land of captivity.  There were folk on every hand to tell me what I I had to do to become a good Christian. Soon I had  more and more rules to observe. One well-meaning ; soul upon hearing of my conversion, asked me if I
was having a Q.T.
'What's that?' I enquired, by now perplexed; I' ve  ' never heard of it.'Then followed the serious explanation of a regular Quiet Time. A period of study and meditation held early in the morning without which no serious
Christian could possibly exist. A necessary discipline I was told. No one told me to treasure the spirit within, but how to polish up the externals.

Before long I heard,'You realise Billy Graham reads five Psalms and three Proverbs every day -should you do less?' Oh dearl A sense of heaviness is coming over me,the honeymoon is passing, It's time to get down to
the nitty-gritty chores of married life with God. I think I'm losing my first love. I've failed to keep the 'ten commandments of the Old Testament and they had led me to Christ as the only hope. Now I've got to get down to the business of keeping the one hundred and ten commandments of the New Testament. Then I couldn't commit adultery, now I mustn't even have an appreciative glance according to some. Murder was out under Moses but now I mustn't hate anyone. Of course it wasn’t long before I was disliking people intensely
but loving them in the Lord', whatever that sickly phrase means, This 'love' didn't seem to be having
much effect on them that's for sure. Well, here's a fine dilemma; in thesame breath, senior Christians
telling me to trust, and not try, and here's what you must do. One classic contradiction of advice came when I was seeking guidances over a particular matter. Within hours of each other two well- meaning advisors stated...
'When in doubt, do "nowt"' and 'When in doubt, strike out!'

I realised that I was going to have to find some easier way than this; but I didn't. I opted for getting down to it. Searching the scriptures daily, for I felt in them I had eternal life.12 Praying long and hard,trying to keep my mind from wandering. Taking communion as often as possible and getting into condemnation every time my mind wandered on to the Arsenal Football Club instead of the Lord's great sacrifice for me. I so wanted to be a good Christian I so wanted to please God, that I gradually took from OB this new life-style; this do-it-yourself Christianity, this self-improvement plan! And, compared with many others, I became good at it. In public I was a most impressive pray-er and was often asked to lead in prayer at public gatherings. I could pray in spiritual jargon for the best part of twenty minutes,telling God things he knew before the foundation el
the world, but I couldn't call him Dad- (Abba)" and get an answer.

Something was wrong somewhere. This fight against sin, this strained endeavour to be a successful Christian. The great burden that dropped off me at conversion seemed to have crept back on again; but I had to keep up the front I was telling people that I was the one with the real joy and they, the non-christians, were the ones who were unhappy. I did wish some of them wouldn't be so nice though.That first-love excitement had soon worn off; mind you I still had the inner assurance of salvation and that wasn't to be sneezed at. I
knew where I was going, even if the present was not too enjoyable. That eternal life seemed to have slid into the future tense somehow, and I wanted to share some of its thrill and excitement along with all the others in my new-found family. That corporate quality of life was supposed to make such an impact upon secular society; they were supposed to be asking what was the secret behind this great spontaneous expression of carefree living. 'Pie in the sky when we die' Christianity was not such a Crowd-puller. We seemed to be answering questions that nobody was asking, and that's rude. I suppose for me the prime example of this was one day set forth in the delightful Cornish seaside resort of Port Isaac. I was the guest speaker at Stan and Marjorie  Bates' Christian guest house, and after dinner one Tuesday evening I strolled down to the harbour for a breath of sea air  and to take in the local atmosphere. T

The town band was playing on the harbour front and,. After I had listened for a while they struck up the Floral Dance and headed up the steep hill towards the guest house. Hundreds of holidaymakers formed up behind and began the traditional one-two-three hop. Well. you can't keep me out of that sort of thing (but I do hasten to add (that incident occurred after my baptism in the Holy Spirit because before then I would have felt such enjoyment to be rather worldly. Probably the effect of the no- dance routine I had got into). As we passed the guest house I peeled off and danced up the pathway and into the lounge where I was due to give my spiritual talk for the evening. One ultra-respectable lady looked across the room and commented in a frosty manner,
'Here comes our carnal brother' I looked around for support.'That's nothing,' said Stan, coming to my aid, ;
'we had someone so irate in here one night, because the band was holding up our Bible study, that she rushed out to witness to them. After a few moments she returned triumphant,' "Did you manage to speak to them about the Lord?" I enquired,' said Stan. "There was too much noise," she replied, "but I did manage to poke a tract down someone's trombone"'

What are we coming to? Was this the life that sprang from a relationship with God? Were these sincere but unhappy people to be my companions on this long pilgrimage? I did hope not; it seemed to be getting more and more restricted along the way. and many of these fellow travelers had evidently settled for restriction; but something' inside me just wouldn't settle; as O.B.H. had said, I had to 'go on'.