Showing posts with label tithing. Show all posts
Showing posts with label tithing. Show all posts
Sunday, 13 April 2025
Saturday, 12 December 2015
More about why the current Pastor model isn't working
You spend your whole life cajoling people in your playpen
to pray more, to read the Bible more
to help more people....
Can I drop a bombshell?
You are part of a "holding system". A waiting room. A place like Bethsaida in the New Testament.
Here's the shocker.
You are the good part of the holding area known as
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil.
The Krays and the Mafia and the Illuminati are down the evil end
You are down the good end.
People are being "held" there in the realm of sin and judgment, or sin and death......
Understand I am not saying you are holding them....I am saying this is God's holding chamber.....it's the Divine alternative to anarchy and breakdown and mayhem......so you are caught in a divine function.
It's a reciprocal relationship. They pay your living and you provide the encouragement to go on living in the playpen.
You get frustrated because they don't ever seem to change.
They, generally, live their own lives and when there are problems, they feel their ten per cent insurance kicks in, and people can pray and support them. In these contemporary times, it's like being in an olden day village except at one remove...because everyone lives miles apart.....but when things go wrong they are covered by their ten percent insurance.
It's totally symbiotic....takes two to tango. It's co-dependency and you are supporting their addiction.
THE ACTUAL KINGDOM
The Kingdom is not lo here or lo there it is near you (every person) even in their mouth
Revelation 12 describes the DOUBLE ACTION of the CHURCH and KINGDOM in one concept
That is MOTHER and CHILD
MOTHER BRINGING FORTH DIVINE MANCHILD
The Child is swept up hurriedly to God to be taught divinely, the Mother is pushed out from society to find another location , another wineskin.
Those who follow the Spirit, these are the sons of God.
The Spirit is like the wind it/He blows where it/He wills.
The Kingdom is Psalm 110.
The Kingdom is voluntary.
The Kingdom is Romans 12 1-2 but only first having gone through the previous chapters experientially
The Kingdom is Grace....Grace as a POWER to bring forth Christ in man
The Church is a living Person, it's the rest of the Body here on earth with the Head in heaven.
It has local cells.
Each cell has many pastors....there is NOTHING in the BIBLE about pastor pyramids.
Each cell would have many fathers or apostles were they not always being thrust out to break open new places....and also were the New Testament older (ie more years between AD33 and its writing) Apostles are produced by either 3 and a half years squeeze in a true LIVING KINGDOM BODY...but there are none of these....so now they take decades.
Unlike Matthew Mark or Luke who wrote a diary, John wrote the Kingdom blueprint....
Baptism of water and the Holy Spirit
followed by John 6....the Romans 6 and 7 equivalent crisis...nearly everybody went home
followed by John 7 and Tabernacles and the Feast of Ingathering....or in other words a revival event.
Ist level second level thirdlevel triggers revival....
In an unending seedtime harvest cycle.....the leaven leavening the whole lump in the end.
In each cycle only a "remnant" finish....but that is enough to trigger the BUBBLE.....POP!!!! EXPLOSION
Think of a ceaseless engine, a motor.
Think of the ONE SPERM that makes it to a human egg out of millions....
Because the whole world is full of churches almost devoid of the Power of Grace....
Or certainly perhaps containing only the first grace message.....the forgiveness of sins.....with some pressing into Baptism in the Spirit....
But the second grace message, which is an exchange of Person at our innercentre resulting in continuous 24/7 consciousness.....nope.....nearly nowhere to be seen.
So BECAUSE this is NOT so....
Grace is only partially kicked in....
There is no psalm 110 voluntary laying down of whole lives
There is no loving God whole heartedly and mindedly and strengthily and others with the same fervour....he who is forgiven much loves much.....he who thinks forgiveness is a sin here or there is still absolutely clueless and loves little....
So you pastor remain on your neverending chain of cajoling within the structure of the Universe called the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil....and you wonder why nothing really works.....
Well....on this your day off....
THIS IS WHY.
Saturday, 5 October 2013
Friday, 14 June 2013
Symbiosis and Codependency : Think Church pyramids/Work/Family/Freemasonry or NOT
Symbiosis and symbiotic
Free online Dictionary
sym·bi·o·sis (s
m
b
-
ss, -b
-)
n. pl. sym·bi·o·ses (-sz)
z)
1. Biology A close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species that may, but does not necessarily, benefit each member.
2. A relationship of mutual benefit or dependence.
[Greek sumbisis, companionship, from sumbioun, to live together, from sumbios, living together : sun-, syn- + bios, life; see gwei- in Indo-European roots.]
sis, companionship, from sumbioun, to live together, from sumbios, living together : sun-, syn- + bios, life; see gwei- in Indo-European roots.]Wikipedia
Symbiosis (from Ancient Greek σύν "together" and βίωσις "living")[1] is close and often long-term interaction between two or more different biological species. In 1877, Bennett used the word symbiosis (which previously had been used to depict people living together in community) to describe the mutualistic relationship in lichens.[2] In 1879, the German mycologist Heinrich Anton de Bary defined it as "the living together of unlike organisms."[3][4]The definition of symbiosis is controversial among scientists. Some believe symbiosis should only refer to persistent mutualisms, while others believe it should apply to any types of persistent biological interactions (i.e. mutualistic, commensalistic, or parasitic).[5]
Some symbiotic relationships are obligate, meaning that both symbionts entirely depend on each other for survival. For example, many lichens consist of fungal and photosynthetic symbionts that cannot live on their own.[3][6][7][8] Others are facultative, meaning that they can, but do not have to live with the other organism.
Symbiotic relationships include those associations in which one organism lives on another (ectosymbiosis, such as mistletoe), or where one partner lives inside the other (endosymbiosis, such as lactobacilli and other bacteria in humans or Symbiodinium in corals).[9][10] Symbiosis is also classified by physical attachment of the organisms; symbiosis in which the organisms have bodily union is called conjunctive symbiosis, and symbiosis in which they are not in union is called disjunctive symbiosis.[11]
Codependency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Development and scope of concept
Historically, the concept of codependence "comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic."[3] It was subsequently broadened to cover the way "that the codependent person is fixated on another person for approval, sustenance, and so on."[3] As such, the concept overlaps with, but developed in the main independently from, the older psychoanalytic concept of the 'passive dependent personality' ... attaching himself to a stronger personality."[4]Some would retain the stricter, narrower dictionary definition of codependency, which requires one person to be physically or psychologically addicted, such as to heroin, and the second person to be psychologically dependent on that behavior.[5]
Patterns and characteristics
Codependency describes behaviors, thoughts and feelings that go beyond normal kinds of self-sacrifice or caretaking. For example parenting is a role that requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice and giving a child's needs a high priority, although a parent could nevertheless still be codependent towards their own children if the caretaking or parental sacrifice reached unhealthy or destructive levels.[2] Generally a parent who takes care of their own needs (emotional and physical) in a healthy way will be a better caretaker, whereas a codependent parent may be less effective, or may even do harm to a child.[2] Another way to look at it is that the needs of an infant are necessary but temporary whereas the needs of the codependent are constant.People who are codependent often take on the role of martyr; they constantly put others' needs before their own and in doing so forget to take care of themselves. This creates a sense that they are "needed"; they cannot stand the thought of being alone and no one needing them. Codependent people are constantly in search of acceptance. When it comes to arguments, codependent people also tend to set themselves up as the "victim". When they do stand up for themselves, they feel guilty.
Codependency does not refer to all caring behavior or feelings, but only those that are excessive to an unhealthy degree.[6] Indeed, from the standpoint of Attachment theory or Object relations theory, "to risk becoming dependent"[7] may be for the compulsively self-reliant a psychological advance, and "depending on a source outside oneself ... successful, or tolerable, dependence" [8] may be valorized accordingly.
Narcissism
Main article: Narcissism
Narcissists, with their ability to "get others to buy into their vision and help them make it a reality," are natural magnets for the "'co-dependent' ... [with] the tendency to put others' need before their own".[9] Sam Vaknin considered that codependents, as "the Watsons of this world, 'provide the narcissist with an obsequious, unthreatening audience ... the perfect backdrop.'"[10] Among the reciprocally locking interactions of the pair, are the way "the narcissist has an overpowering need to feel important and special, and the co-dependent has a strong need to help others feel that way. ... The narcissist overdoes self-caring and demands it from others, while the co-dependent underdoes or may even do almost no self-caring."[11]In psychoanalytic terms, the narcissist "who manifests such 'omnipotent' behaviour and who seems to be especially 'independent' exerts an especially fascinating effect on all ... dependent persons ... [who] struggle to participate in the 'omnipotent' narcissist's power":[12] narcissist and codependent "participate together in a form of an ego-defense system called projective identification."[13]
Rappoport identifies codependents of narcissists as "co-narcissists.":[14] "the codependent narcissist gives up his or her own needs to feed and fuel the needs of the other."[15]
Inverted narcissists
Sam Vaknin—"a self-help author who openly discusses his experiences as a person with narcissistic personality disorder"[16]—has identified a special sub-class of such codependents as "inverted narcissists."Inverted or "covert" narcissists are people who are "intensely attuned to others' needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice"—an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... [pseudo-]saintly."[17] Vaknin considered that "the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent ... the child becomes a masterful provider of Narcissistic Supply, a perfect match to the parent's personality."
In everyday life, the inverted narcissist "demands anonymity ... uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him ... [with] praise that cannot be deflected." Recovery means the ability to recognize the self-destructive elements in one's character structure, and to "develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself."
Recovery
There are various recovery paths for individuals who struggle with codependency.For example, some may choose behavioral psychotherapy, sometimes accompanied by chemical therapy for accompanying depression.
There also exist support groups for codependency, such as Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA), Al-Anon/Alateen, Nar-Anon, and Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACoA), which are based on the twelve-step program model of Alcoholics Anonymous and also Celebrate Recovery a Christian, Bible-based group. Although the term codependency originated outside of twelve-step groups, it is now a common concept in many of them.[18]
Often an important result of a Family Intervention is to highlight codependent behaviors of various family members. This is sometimes a great help in encouraging the codependent person to accept help.
Many self-help guides have been written on the subject of codependency. One of the first was Codependent No More by Melody Beattie, published in 1987. Beattie has since written several other books on the subject. Other authors include Pia Melody (Facing Co-dependence) and Shirley Smith (Set Yourself Free).
Author Dr. Henry Cloud has written many books on the subject of personal Boundaries, (including one book by that title.)
Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback girl by Natalie Lue is one of the most insightful books into Codependency.
Harmful effects of unaddressed codependency
Unresolved patterns of codependency can lead to more serious problems like alcoholism, drug addiction, eating disorders, sex addiction, and other self-destructive or self-defeating behaviors.[19] People with codependency are also more likely to attract further abuse from aggressive individuals, more likely to stay in stressful jobs or relationships, less likely to seek medical attention when needed and are also less likely to get promotions and tend to earn less money than those without codependency patterns.[19]For some, the social insecurity caused by codependency can progress into full-blown social anxiety disorders like social phobia, avoidant personality disorder or painful shyness.[19] Other stress-related disorders like panic disorder, depression or PTSD may also be present.[19]
Symbiosis it seems is quite positive and affirms and empowers both parties.
Have a look at these scriptures with related ideas.
1 Corinthians 12 : 4 ff
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith [d]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [e]healing [f]by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the [g]effecting of [h]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [i]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For [j]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
....... But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no [p]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is [q]honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Ephesians 3
8 To me, the very least of all [d]saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to [e]bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.Ephesians 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [d]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [e]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [f]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [g]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [h]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [i]speaking the truth in love, [j]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [k]by what every joint supplies, according to the [l]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.Codependency Manifests:
Hebrews 13:11-14 sounds adventurous doesn't it?11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.
This passage does too....
Isaiah 54:2 "Enlarge the place of your tent; Stretch out the curtains of your dwellings, spare not; Lengthen your cords And strengthen your pegs." And this also in relation to Christ's Passion in the previous chapter(53)
So Co-dependency is , in the case of wrong doctrine, when a group starts
to be sick because it adheres to empty human tradition rather than to
God Himself.
One day I'll share all the prophetic words spoken by people, mostly without any knowledge of me,which describe what God has called me to do. Because of those words I HAVE to take a more fluid approach with the whims of one particular local church. Some of what men say can be accurate, some of it is just the product of men's assumptions and has no lasting authority at all.
Some of you know I stepped on Havant Church's toes when I dared speak about the subject of tithing.
Probably THE MOST symptomatic email reply of an unhealthy co-dependency was this one:
Hi
Chris,
As much as I like
you as a bloke, and as much as you’re entitled to your views on matters, you’re
now running the risk of being divisive.
And you don’t wanna
do that….
You know the Bible
well, right? You’ll know Titus 3:9-11.
9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments
and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and
useless.
10
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with him.
11
You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is
self-condemned.
Strong
words. Not mine, not yours, God’s. And they’re beginning to apply to you, in my
opinion….
This was all said complete with phrases like "(you)trash the leadership" to the simple teaching of how God does not require a tithe in the New Covenant. God speaks instead only of giving, and giving according to the measure of faith that you have...oh...and joyfully, without compulsion.
When we discuss teachings we must allow that people will have different ideas. The email, and there were several, went beyond a difference of opinion, and started to angrily ascribe false accusations for the simple reason I was of a different opinion. ie I don't believe leaders have any mandate for teaching tithing. It completely undermines the free gospel.
So Co-dependency is , in the case of wrong doctrine, when a group starts to be sick because it adheres to empty human tradition rather than to God Himself. This also is the entire history of the Jews , who rather than listen to Jesus, adhered to their own group opinions which then became very dangerous ....dangerous to the life of Christ, but dangerous for their people thereafter.
see also this related post
Wednesday, 22 May 2013
John Stevens on Tithing
Hi Chris,
Tithing.
Tithing caused me to explore the bible and receive an unexpected
electrocution of truth. I'm certainly not claiming to have understood
everything but a shock is a shock and at least I can write about that.
I'd read Run Baby Run, The Cross and the Switchblade, When the Spirit Comes and a few other books prior to conversion to Christ in 1976.
I
seem to remember one of the characters that David Wilkerson wrote about
was a man in a New York who used to preach everyday even if no-one
was listening, and 'tithe' 90% of his income and live on the 10%.
I'd read Run Baby Run, The Cross and the Switchblade, When the Spirit Comes and a few other books prior to conversion to Christ in 1976.
I
don't know if, strictly speaking, that was my introductiion to the word
tithing or not; I suspect not as 'tithe barns' were part of my
vocabulary and somewhere in learning about the history of the feudal
system I'm sure I heard something about tithes as the precursor to
taxation.
Roll on a few years and after years of giving 10% from my University grant and early teaching salary and I'm leading a homegroup that has collectively been baptised in the Spirit afresh during the Wimber visits to the UK. For some reason I decide that we should look at tithing as it had been a blessing to me...at the heart of the desire to share about tithing I think was the conviction that I felt it was spiritually healthy to be generous rather than be afraid of financial giving and thought it would be good for the group.
Two things followed on in quick succession. The first was the electrocution. The second was the ruin of my tithing experiment.
Before looking at the OT references to tithing I had a very simple model of what the bible teaches about tithing; that it should be the first tenth of all you have i.e. gross salary. To keep things simple that also had the corrollary that all of the 10% found its way by standing order to the church. I was glad to do this; it wasn't a burden.
Then, to my amazement, we discovered that the first type of biblical tithing was 10% to be used to purchase food and drink whilst on pilgrimage to the Jerusalem feasts so that everyone would be joyful. The second tithe was more like our tax system to be given to the Levites and priests for their sustenance but also so that the Levites could run what we would call the National Health Service and Social Services, not at the temple but amongst the people and their houses - interesting that our present government is trying to combine these two services as I write this! There might be another tithe but I can't remember what it is.
For the Jews who came to Christ, of course, they would have been required as citizens of Israel, albeit under Roman occupation, to pay the tithes as well as taxation to Rome...and then any giving that is mentioned in the NT would have been over and above that.
The often quoted passage in Malachi isn't so spiritual if one sees 'spiritual' as invisible and having no connection to the material. 'Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse' is just the same as the current outcry against multinationals and the powerful elite who rob the nation through tax-dodging. If the nation had stooped to the degree that the tax flow had diminished the whole temple and health/social service system would collapse. Money is best seen as a fluid, it's only useful when it's on the move, at that time from everyone to the priests and Levites ministering to God in order for the blessings of heaven to reach the poorest of the land.
What about now? It's simple. We should pay our taxes and speak up about what that money should be used for. Those on the right might favour lowering taxes to dismantle an ever more powerful state machinery, those on the left may want to increase taxes to increase the flow to the poor. Both voices have their place. Speak up! But giving - that's different. That's not restricted to money that's everything.
It really is a Spirit/spirit thing as is everything. It really is a question of learning to live in step with the Spirit.
The life of the Spirit is not restricted by our analytical versions of fairness and justice. Peter and John almost walk past the beggar by the beautiful gate. Jesus wasn't going to stop when he was walking past the disciples boat. Jesus singled out the lame man in the portico and Lazarus in the tree. Sometimes someone catches our attention of our spirit, sometimes we know we have to go to someone as the Spirit impels.
There's nothing wrong in committing yourself to give 10% of your gross salary to your local church if that's what you want to do but you are not coerced by any scripture to do so. You will be sowing, almost definitely, into the priorities of the leaders of your church and you and what you reap may inform everyone about the wisdom of the original commitments.
Roll on a few years and after years of giving 10% from my University grant and early teaching salary and I'm leading a homegroup that has collectively been baptised in the Spirit afresh during the Wimber visits to the UK. For some reason I decide that we should look at tithing as it had been a blessing to me...at the heart of the desire to share about tithing I think was the conviction that I felt it was spiritually healthy to be generous rather than be afraid of financial giving and thought it would be good for the group.
Two things followed on in quick succession. The first was the electrocution. The second was the ruin of my tithing experiment.
Before looking at the OT references to tithing I had a very simple model of what the bible teaches about tithing; that it should be the first tenth of all you have i.e. gross salary. To keep things simple that also had the corrollary that all of the 10% found its way by standing order to the church. I was glad to do this; it wasn't a burden.
Then, to my amazement, we discovered that the first type of biblical tithing was 10% to be used to purchase food and drink whilst on pilgrimage to the Jerusalem feasts so that everyone would be joyful. The second tithe was more like our tax system to be given to the Levites and priests for their sustenance but also so that the Levites could run what we would call the National Health Service and Social Services, not at the temple but amongst the people and their houses - interesting that our present government is trying to combine these two services as I write this! There might be another tithe but I can't remember what it is.
For the Jews who came to Christ, of course, they would have been required as citizens of Israel, albeit under Roman occupation, to pay the tithes as well as taxation to Rome...and then any giving that is mentioned in the NT would have been over and above that.
The often quoted passage in Malachi isn't so spiritual if one sees 'spiritual' as invisible and having no connection to the material. 'Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse' is just the same as the current outcry against multinationals and the powerful elite who rob the nation through tax-dodging. If the nation had stooped to the degree that the tax flow had diminished the whole temple and health/social service system would collapse. Money is best seen as a fluid, it's only useful when it's on the move, at that time from everyone to the priests and Levites ministering to God in order for the blessings of heaven to reach the poorest of the land.
What about now? It's simple. We should pay our taxes and speak up about what that money should be used for. Those on the right might favour lowering taxes to dismantle an ever more powerful state machinery, those on the left may want to increase taxes to increase the flow to the poor. Both voices have their place. Speak up! But giving - that's different. That's not restricted to money that's everything.
It really is a Spirit/spirit thing as is everything. It really is a question of learning to live in step with the Spirit.
The life of the Spirit is not restricted by our analytical versions of fairness and justice. Peter and John almost walk past the beggar by the beautiful gate. Jesus wasn't going to stop when he was walking past the disciples boat. Jesus singled out the lame man in the portico and Lazarus in the tree. Sometimes someone catches our attention of our spirit, sometimes we know we have to go to someone as the Spirit impels.
There's nothing wrong in committing yourself to give 10% of your gross salary to your local church if that's what you want to do but you are not coerced by any scripture to do so. You will be sowing, almost definitely, into the priorities of the leaders of your church and you and what you reap may inform everyone about the wisdom of the original commitments.
(I'm currently reviewing along with some others in my church the wisdom of our current support for microfinance for example)
I love Paul's statement:
I love Paul's statement:
And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
We
are all caught up in this. As was Jesus. He gave everything and as He
gave more so he, like Paul, knew the truth of 'the less I be loved'.
There's
something very deliberate and very lovely and joyful about putting
seeds into the ground. It's my next job down at my allotment. I'm
looking forward in particular to sowing some sweetcorn seeds. Yes the
seeds will die, they will be spent, but I know that just a few months
later something possible taller than I am will stand there in glory!
Well, hopefully glorious sunshine anyway and I'll feast on the many
hundreds of seeds that one seed has managed to reproduce.
That
was the big shock discovering that the biblical tithing has very little
to do with the '10% to your local church' equivalance of the OT tithe.
Following
on from that study I went through a period of real financial hardship
where I wanted to tithe, i.e. give 10% to my church, but in order to
continue to tithe I was borrowing money from a family source. It took
awhile for the madness of this to register. But you see how gracious God
was; the truth had set me free although it took me a while to cotton
on. I stopped borrowing and gave less to the church until I was able to
give a little more without taking handouts from the family! Some things
need to be demolished!
My
practice now? I'm not sure what % I give to my church. I'm happy to do
this, but mentally I see the taxes I pay as having more relation to the
OT priestly tithe, and I'm free to give to myself and friends and family
in the spirit of the first tithe i.e. to buy food and drink and have
some holy joy. But it doesn't stop there.
'Freely you have received freely give'.
The universe's big secret? It's all run by grace. I'm still being trained up in the ways of grace.
Well
Chris, I've been following your various bombardments and artllery
rounds on tithing and thought maybe it's time I joined in and shared a
few journeying thoughts.
I've
avoided getting involved in all the teaching side of the argument about
Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedec...maybe another time!
John
Tuesday, 14 May 2013
The Mad Replacement for OT Law and Tithing
When God abolishes something He always replaces it with something much greater. He didn't abolish tithing so there would never again be any supported worker for the Kingdom, He introduced something so radical it puts tithing in the shade. He introduced the weird weird Kingdom principle of sowing money. Yup. He did that to wind up the religious English people who live entirely by what they see hear and touch. A nation of shopkeepers and accountants. Nowadays just accountants and Tescos. You can really offend an English Christian with the notion that you can sow money. Give and it shall be given you. Oh, the Quaker says....that's not noble enough motive for me. I give purely for the joy of giving. In Spirit terms it's a bit like Peter saying to Jesus,"Well if I am to be washed, wash all of me." In other words over the top "sound good, polish up my brass halo" righteousness. "Um no Peter....washing your feet 'll do fine. You are washed already. Back to money. See, this sowing thing isn't actually primarily for us to look good with posh houses and Cadillacs. It isn't Chris? Nope. It's to demonstrate the whole insanity of the Kingdom and wind up all the Anglicans whose Christianity is neatly laid out in lines and principles and tithes...in other words Judaism heated up a few degrees, but nothing at all to do with the Kingdom of God. Why? When you are talking about a Kingdom whose chief ruler is born in a cowtrough...you begin to get the idea. This is no Anglicanism. We're talking utter utter madness. The sort that is supernatural leaven to fill the whole earth.
Sunday, 31 March 2013
Sermon Blues by Chris Welch
in Facebook (Notes) on 28 March 2013 at 11:51 AM
Pastor: I can't get a sermon.....I've been thinking all week.
Jesus : Who says you have to have one?
Pastor: It's my job d'oh. That's what they pay the tithe for. I am employed by them.
Jesus: Who said they had to tithe?
Pastor : Everyone knows Christians have to tithe
Jesus : I said people could give and give generously from a willing heart. I never said about tithing. That whole thing was for a different time, a different people and an old covenant. This is the new covenant in My Blood.
Pastor: Well if I didn't tell them they had to tithe no one would give.
Jesus: Firstly....you'd be surprised how freewill works. Secondly, what's the problem anyway? Go out and get a job.
Pastor: I haven't got time I'm leading a church remember?
Jesus: Who said you are leading the church? I thought I was?
Pastor: I know we say that, but the fact is if I didn't do it then nobody would.
Jesus : Good
Pastor: What do you mean good?
Jesus: When nobody leads, then that gives room for my Spirit to raise some men up in ministry gifts and all the others to give as the Spirit gives them utterance or gives them instruction.
Pastor: But pastors are in charge.
Jesus: Where does it say that? Rabbis are in charge under the Old Covenant. Where does it say that under the New?Jeremiah said "They do not teach each other anymore each one his neighbour for each of you shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest."
Pastor: That all sounds like Quakerism to me. And Quakers now invite Buddhists in, and anybody says anything they like. Completely wrong doctrines as well as right doctrines.
Jesus: Perhaps they are not connected to Me anymore and the Melchizedek Order. For you are all priests now after the Order of Melchizedek. You are a nation of kings and priests.
Pastor: Well I wish that was so, but many people do not even know you.
Jesus: Well perhaps you should be telling them that all can know Me, I included everyone when I stretched my arms open and died.
Pastor: So you are saying I shouldn't be in charge?
Jesus: Nowhere does it say a pastor is in charge. It says I gave many pastors for taking care of the sheep. It also says I gave many ministries for the equipping of the saints. Where are your apostles?
Pastor: We've got one apostle. He visits now and again. But he's far too bossy and I am in charge here.
Jesus:You are not in charge. Neither is that apostle. I don't give one apostle. Paul wrote "Not many are fathers". There are several fathers moving between churches, just as there are many prophets and pastors and teachers all moving in and around a local church.
Pastor: I've never heard of such a thing
Jesus: None of you modern pastors read the Bible much do you?
Pastor: I read the bits I like
Jesus : It says all ministry is given for the equipping of the saints.
Pastor: I don't see that as practical. How can ordinary what you call minstries possibly be adequately trained to run 3 year courses with exams and a certificate? It's just not practical.
Jesus: The equipping of the saints has nothing to do with three year institutional courses with exam certificates.
Pastor: It doesn't? That's how I got mine.
Jesus: I never gave you that certificate. I wouldn't give you any certificate.
Pastor: Now you are being rude.
Jesus: I wouldn't give you a certificate of paper because I have already given everything you need in Me. I write my Living Law right across your being...this is how the New Covenant works. When you are mature in it, you find yourself imparting it, others recognise it, and "a man's gift makes way for itself" Proverbs says.
Pastor: I teach being born again. I teach forgiveness received by faith because of your work on the Cross.
Jesus: You only preach one sacrifice. You only preach the Blood
Pastor : What are you saying now? There is only one Cross.
Jesus: I spelled it out in the Old Testament. One animal was slaughtered for sin. The other was sent away into the wilderness. It's the only way I could represent two things at once back then. It's the Blood and the Body.You were not only forgiven...but you also died in Me. I took your spirit and that of all in Adam in My Body into death. And I raised you all up as living spirits fused in Me. You are all new creations.
Pastor: They never told me that one. I studied for 3 years. I studied all about eschatology and the terrible history of the church. What you are saying is a different gospel.
Jesus: No. This IS MY GOSPEL. Unless you eat of my flesh and drink my blood you do not have any life in yourselves. What YOU are preaching is a different gospel. The gospel you preach leads to the terrible church history and a meaningless eschatology because nothing works.
Pastor: This is all doing my head in. And I still haven't got a sermon.
Jesus: This is all doing My Body in. And perhaps you have no right yet to give a sermon until you let me write My one in you.My Body builds itself up by that which each joint supplies. But nobody can supply anything other than that which I have already supplied. The Holy Spirit is given to make known to you all that which is mine and is now yours.It is not by power, nor by might, but everything is now by My Spirit says the Lord.If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation entirely, the old has simply passed away....the new is already here.
Pastor: You have criticised just about everything I do. I am not sure I and the congregation will ever change.
Jesus: It is as hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle .
Pastor: How am I rich?
Jesus: You have status with man, but outside of My Cross, none with me. You have people forcibly paying you a tenth of
their income every week even though this is not in the New Covenant. You want to be in charge of my works, yet do not recognise My Charge and the way I operate. You do not know more of the gospel than an Old Testament rabbi, who also believes in forgiveness by faith in God on the Day of Atonement. You are rich but outside of Me, and in reality you have little or nothing. Yet you will not relearn.
Pastor: Jesus, it's hard for me to ever relearn. I am in my forties. I would look foolish if I ever said my training was insufficient.
Jesus: Do you want emptiness, or do you want Life?
Pastor: I want your life,but I am not prepared to admit to any congregation I am wrong. I would be out of a job, and then who would pay for my living?
Jesus: I am your Supplier. I am all you need.
Pastor: *silence*
Jesus: Then I will send out into the highways and the byways and compel others in, for the sons of the Kingdom have refused the wedding invitation and the celebration WILL BE GREAT in the Honour which the Father has given Me, in the honour of the Holy Spirit's work, and in the honour of the Father who completes every work perfectly and abundantly.
Jesus : Who says you have to have one?
Pastor: It's my job d'oh. That's what they pay the tithe for. I am employed by them.
Jesus: Who said they had to tithe?
Pastor : Everyone knows Christians have to tithe
Jesus : I said people could give and give generously from a willing heart. I never said about tithing. That whole thing was for a different time, a different people and an old covenant. This is the new covenant in My Blood.
Pastor: Well if I didn't tell them they had to tithe no one would give.
Jesus: Firstly....you'd be surprised how freewill works. Secondly, what's the problem anyway? Go out and get a job.
Pastor: I haven't got time I'm leading a church remember?
Jesus: Who said you are leading the church? I thought I was?
Pastor: I know we say that, but the fact is if I didn't do it then nobody would.
Jesus : Good
Pastor: What do you mean good?
Jesus: When nobody leads, then that gives room for my Spirit to raise some men up in ministry gifts and all the others to give as the Spirit gives them utterance or gives them instruction.
Pastor: But pastors are in charge.
Jesus: Where does it say that? Rabbis are in charge under the Old Covenant. Where does it say that under the New?Jeremiah said "They do not teach each other anymore each one his neighbour for each of you shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest."
Pastor: That all sounds like Quakerism to me. And Quakers now invite Buddhists in, and anybody says anything they like. Completely wrong doctrines as well as right doctrines.
Jesus: Perhaps they are not connected to Me anymore and the Melchizedek Order. For you are all priests now after the Order of Melchizedek. You are a nation of kings and priests.
Pastor: Well I wish that was so, but many people do not even know you.
Jesus: Well perhaps you should be telling them that all can know Me, I included everyone when I stretched my arms open and died.
Pastor: So you are saying I shouldn't be in charge?
Jesus: Nowhere does it say a pastor is in charge. It says I gave many pastors for taking care of the sheep. It also says I gave many ministries for the equipping of the saints. Where are your apostles?
Pastor: We've got one apostle. He visits now and again. But he's far too bossy and I am in charge here.
Jesus:You are not in charge. Neither is that apostle. I don't give one apostle. Paul wrote "Not many are fathers". There are several fathers moving between churches, just as there are many prophets and pastors and teachers all moving in and around a local church.
Pastor: I've never heard of such a thing
Jesus: None of you modern pastors read the Bible much do you?
Pastor: I read the bits I like
Jesus : It says all ministry is given for the equipping of the saints.
Pastor: I don't see that as practical. How can ordinary what you call minstries possibly be adequately trained to run 3 year courses with exams and a certificate? It's just not practical.
Jesus: The equipping of the saints has nothing to do with three year institutional courses with exam certificates.
Pastor: It doesn't? That's how I got mine.
Jesus: I never gave you that certificate. I wouldn't give you any certificate.
Pastor: Now you are being rude.
Jesus: I wouldn't give you a certificate of paper because I have already given everything you need in Me. I write my Living Law right across your being...this is how the New Covenant works. When you are mature in it, you find yourself imparting it, others recognise it, and "a man's gift makes way for itself" Proverbs says.
Pastor: I teach being born again. I teach forgiveness received by faith because of your work on the Cross.
Jesus: You only preach one sacrifice. You only preach the Blood
Pastor : What are you saying now? There is only one Cross.
Jesus: I spelled it out in the Old Testament. One animal was slaughtered for sin. The other was sent away into the wilderness. It's the only way I could represent two things at once back then. It's the Blood and the Body.You were not only forgiven...but you also died in Me. I took your spirit and that of all in Adam in My Body into death. And I raised you all up as living spirits fused in Me. You are all new creations.
Pastor: They never told me that one. I studied for 3 years. I studied all about eschatology and the terrible history of the church. What you are saying is a different gospel.
Jesus: No. This IS MY GOSPEL. Unless you eat of my flesh and drink my blood you do not have any life in yourselves. What YOU are preaching is a different gospel. The gospel you preach leads to the terrible church history and a meaningless eschatology because nothing works.
Pastor: This is all doing my head in. And I still haven't got a sermon.
Jesus: This is all doing My Body in. And perhaps you have no right yet to give a sermon until you let me write My one in you.My Body builds itself up by that which each joint supplies. But nobody can supply anything other than that which I have already supplied. The Holy Spirit is given to make known to you all that which is mine and is now yours.It is not by power, nor by might, but everything is now by My Spirit says the Lord.If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation entirely, the old has simply passed away....the new is already here.
Pastor: You have criticised just about everything I do. I am not sure I and the congregation will ever change.
Jesus: It is as hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle .
Pastor: How am I rich?
Jesus: You have status with man, but outside of My Cross, none with me. You have people forcibly paying you a tenth of
their income every week even though this is not in the New Covenant. You want to be in charge of my works, yet do not recognise My Charge and the way I operate. You do not know more of the gospel than an Old Testament rabbi, who also believes in forgiveness by faith in God on the Day of Atonement. You are rich but outside of Me, and in reality you have little or nothing. Yet you will not relearn.
Pastor: Jesus, it's hard for me to ever relearn. I am in my forties. I would look foolish if I ever said my training was insufficient.
Jesus: Do you want emptiness, or do you want Life?
Pastor: I want your life,but I am not prepared to admit to any congregation I am wrong. I would be out of a job, and then who would pay for my living?
Jesus: I am your Supplier. I am all you need.
Pastor: *silence*
Jesus: Then I will send out into the highways and the byways and compel others in, for the sons of the Kingdom have refused the wedding invitation and the celebration WILL BE GREAT in the Honour which the Father has given Me, in the honour of the Holy Spirit's work, and in the honour of the Father who completes every work perfectly and abundantly.
- Chris Kimmell, Tunji Ayoade, Gail Cochrane and 2 others like this.
- Gail Cochrane Chris......now THAT is a CONVERSATION!!!! And one that is so needed today!! Thank you, Chris.
- Ray E Horton Good message. After being with good churches so long, I forget there are probably pastors out there that need to hear this.
- Carol Lucas Winkler I do believe there are churches, and pastors, who are like this, but i will say that i had a pastor who had a heart for God, and he truly loved everyone the same. He was a big giver, and he was down to earth. He didn't condemn, or try to squeeze money out of people.He was always giving money away. His love, and joy, and lifestyle are the things that made me want Jesus. Religion can be ugly, and hard, but we can't throw all pastors under the bus. I loved going to that church, for 16 years, until we moved. It was like a family, and the pastor was like our brother. I understand why so many are down on church, and pastors, because i have never found a church like the one i attended for so many years. I was taught about the love of God. I am thankful i had that pastor, and that preacher, when i was young, and knew nothing, at all, about the Lord. There have been pastors, in churches i visited, who were out for money, and fame, and numbers. It is sad...
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