Jim Vissers and what I term "The Return of the Watchmen."

 Compare two passages from Song of Solomon

firstly, Chapter 3!
 All night long on my bed
    I looked for the one my heart loves;
    I looked for him but did not find him.
² I will get up now and go about the city,
    through its streets and squares;
I will search for the one my heart loves.
    So I looked for him but did not find him.
³ The watchmen found me
    as they made their rounds in the city.
    “Have you seen the one my heart loves?”
⁴ Scarcely had I passed them
    when I found the one my heart loves.

 Now look at  Chapter 5 

² I slept but my heart was awake.
    Listen! My beloved is knocking:
“Open to me, my sister, my darling,
    my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
    my hair with the dampness of the night.”
³ I have taken off my robe—
    must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
    must I soil them again?
⁴ My beloved thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
    my heart began to pound for him.
⁵ I arose to open for my beloved,
    and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
    on the handles of the bolt.
⁶ I opened for my beloved,
    but my beloved had left; he was gone.
    My heart sank at his departure.^[a]
I looked for him but did not find him.
    I called him but he did not answer.
⁷ The watchmen found me
    as they made their rounds in the city.
They beat me, they bruised me;
    they took away my cloak,
    those watchmen of the walls!

 Now read this fairly typical testimony of the sort of things many of us have experienced.

Jim Vissers Testimony:

"Just over a year ago, we began a new journey in God.  Actually, a couple years ago when we came into contact with a prominent pure grace preacher. I was in a church that was part of the denomination he had amicably parted with a few years ago. So when his grace message started getting some attention it came from someone familiar and trusted.  My pastors actually invited my wife and me to attend a special teaching series with him.  What we heard really shook us to the core. I was elated but had some difficulties internalizing what he was saying. When I met him in person, I could not even say anything intelligible, I just hugged him desperately, recognizing Christ's unconditional love. (Kind of embarrassing to think about it now.) 

We had been under a mixed condemnation gospel for almost a decade and I was definitely weary of trying to figure out how it all fit together. What he was saying was so clear.

When we returned home I gorged myself on audio teachings and read the Bible with new eyes.  God was leading us into new territory but, as we soon discovered, it had a few giants.  We were deacons in our local body and had many discussions with our pastors about grace and various teachings we heard but it seemed that there was some reservation about this 'new' perspective. 

I became the most vocal advocate for grace in our congregation and it seemed all the related scriptures were fresh in my mind and with it an unction from Holy Spirit.  This was in contrast to a 'balancing' message from my pastors who cautioned all not to take it too far.  I was confused because they had introduced me to this grace teaching. Privately, I tried as gently as I could to point towards grace when ever I felt that there was a condemning message but it never seemed to have an effect. 

We began to see that what we had been involved in since 2002 had been mostly an unhealthy church model.  It was one of unquestionable submission to leadership. Of course it was never said blatantly but after reading about church abuse we now understand it's subtleties. We thought this was normal and had not challenged it even though lots of people came through the door and soon left due to "not willing to submit to authority" or being "rebellious".  God was opening our eyes!

When we decided to see another speaker who was not necessarily endorsed by our leaders it really started to get difficult for us. It was strongly implied that I had been infiltrated by a demon.  I was cornered by a surprise leadership meeting and had to defend myself and my doctrine against the whole team.  

The amazing thing is that it was God who was speaking through me and I spoke more eloquently and boldly than I ever had before. I know people were surprised especially when I could calmly and instantly refute every accusation with scripture. My pastors did become emotional and there were some ultimatums levied.  I told them that I did not want to sever our relationship. I also said that they were too controlling. That went over with lots of gasps. Somehow we left the meeting as friends. 

After thinking it over we knew that we had to step down from any leadership role. That was too much for our leaders. They demanded that I tell them why I was offended as if nothing had even happened before! 

I honestly thought we would see things turn around so I continued to attend church but it became increasingly difficult. Eventually we were actually shunned!  Yah, people were told not to associate with us. I was also the target of a lot of spiritual garbage for a long time but at the same time I experienced some most amazing glory and revelation.  Looking back I am glad I had the experience. 

Just recently I have learned about third level faith and I understand why we had to leave our church.  We are in a process of redefinition. Not really a desert experience but more like an oasis experience.  "

*************************************
Chris continues :So let's consider the two scriptures in Song of Solomon because they are very similar scenarios but in the later one the watchmen behave so strangely.


But are the scenarios similar when you view them from the inside out?


In the first one the Shulammite is lovesick. It is preventing sleep, one of the strongest of our physiological appetites. So, in desperation, and realising the futility of trying to sleep, she rises and GOES OUTSIDE.


Thousands of years before the movement in Europe called Expressionism featuring painters like Edvard Monch (The Scream) and the dreamlike prose of Franz Kafka, comes this rather expressionist love poem which describes inward spiritual states pictorially.

At first the watchmen find the Shulammite outside and are used, by implication rather than by direct reference, to point the way to finding the Beloved again.

This is so true at the beginning of our walk in God. In the move that we were in, we fully believed in submission and covering. That is as we submitted to the anointing and Word coming through a leadership we took as emerging in God, that we would grow in our relationship with Jesus. And for years and years this seemed true.

The whole charismatic movement is built around some of these ideas. Their churches have taken on the form described in the second passage.I slept but my heart was awake.
There is a sleeping but still an openness to hear in the Spirit, but not the same intensity of search that earlier had driven the Shulammite outside. Instead there are protestations to the Beloved:
I have taken off my robe—
    must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
    must I soil them again?

There is the overriding impression that this is what Christianity is. Taking off robes of unrighteousness, washing, washing the feet which get contaminated on a day to day basis, and making ready for relationship with Christ.

And go to any charismatic meeting, this is what it is about. But a relationship with Christ has another quality that this understanding does not have.

Christ is dynamic. He doesn't centre His life around us, and what we feel are our needs. He calls us into union with His Life, to be around Him as He

 -goes outside

- leaps upon the mountains

-goes down to the beds of myrrh

-Hebrews 13:13 says we go outside to identify with Him who was outside the City buying our redemption at Golgotha.

- Him leaping on mountains is the manifestation of His overcoming Life, taking dominion, overcoming things
- the beds of myrrh means going down to the places of very real suffering to bring kindness, release,help to find if there be others who will be drawn into this love relationship with the King.

It very much means "putting on our robe that we have taken off".
It means not only resting in the main doctrines outlined in Romans 3 to 5, but to GO ON into the doctrines of Romans 6 through to 8.

The robe that we put on is believing Galations 2:20.
Romans 6  Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ⁴ We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

We've learned how to take off our robe now we have to learn how to put it on...a resurrection form.

This is the fundamental difference between the two orders of church. Charismatics will say they believe Christ is IN THEM, but when pressed as to what that means, they see themselves internally as two people, and the one who wins out is the one who does the most good works. So the actual death at the Cross of the whole of their inner identity has never been faced full on. In everything they do, it is always intermingled with a consciousness of an old robe which they are putting on and taking off, but there is no real revelation of Christ's totally NEW ROBE they can put on.

So what about the watchmen?
I was intrigued by these in the second passage when i first read about it in Song of Songs by Watchman Nee.  We'd like to avoid this unpleasantness. But I dont think we can, anymore than a teenager can avoid some unpleasant confrontations with his parents. These parents that seemed so nice before when you were young children.

Part of breaking through in our own right seems to be caught up in the reality of a chick busting his way out of an eggshell. That which formerly was a nice protective environment for the early stages of a chick's growth has suddenly become mighty claustrophobic. All it senses is restriction which it grows against to break, but in that process develops the muscular frame with which to survive in the outside world.

A thirdlevel ministry by the name of Eldred Linden talked of that passage in the old testament which likens the Ministry of God to one which overturns the bird's nest so the birds HAVE to learn to fly.

So there is this strange mystery in God that whether the "watchmen" are operating in the Spirit or the flesh....their task is the same....to be the launching pad and springboard for another group of fully grown thirdlevellers. cf Children,young men,father level as in 1 John 2:12ff.

It is best to understand this as a transition stage in the believer's life. You see, in God, even bad isn't really bad. Everything if viewed with a single eye is that which we need to propel us forward in the Spirit.

One of the most spiritually mature and glowing 21 year olds I ever met shortly before he was "suicided" by the KGB, was Sergei Kourdakov who had escaped a Communist Gulag and swam the Baltic to get to Europe. He warned that if he did not live long it was because the KGB were after him. This was 1972, long before I knew that the KGB is pretty much the CIA anyway once you get high enough.

As we enter the latter maturation stage of the secondlevel or young man stage we will experience some form of Song of Solomon 5 verse 7. In my case it was pretty literal.

The watchmen found me
    as they made their rounds in the city.
They beat me, they bruised me;
    they took away my cloak,
    those watchmen of the walls!

Which cloak did the watchmen take away?
Ahaaa! Well they cannot really take the new one away since that one is hidden with God in Christ. So really then, they have done us a favour because they have removed from us the possibility of returning to our old outer forms which were mixed with death anyway. But it does spell the end of the charismatic walk for us.....the endless sheepdip at the end of the week....
"taking off our robe and washing our feet"

Because THAT ROBE,
THAT REPUTATION
is kind of in tatters.But like someone who flees a piece of clothing that is caught in a section of machinery that is drawing us closer and closer to cogs of death, which will not only chew our robing but will continue to chew everything about us....

WE ARE NOW FREE to be continuously with our Beloved, and the whole irony is we find the true joining that takes place alongside more and more who are finding the same inward secrets of moving in this hidden Melchizedek order.

Beating The Rock - Darin Hufford

The way of the heart,
the way of life,
the way of creativity,
invention,joy,purpose;
the way that is discerned subliminally in Psalm 19 :Day to day pours forth speech .
This all stands in direct juxtaposition against the "known" way that has entered into the lore of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


So as long as we live among loonies of the opposite gospel to Proverbs 3:5 ,
the ones whose statement of belief is
Trust in your insight with all your heart and lean not unto your Lord....just so long will we be perceived as the loonies, the ones upsetting the applecart, and we will never have the security of an instruction manual, BUT We Will Be ALIVE in God! - Chris Welch


The article below was first posted on the Free Believer's Network page by Darin Hufford. This posting has new illustrations by ACW.

There’s a story in the Old Testament where Moses and the newly liberated Israelites are fresh in the wilderness just after having escaped the Egyptian army through the Red Sea. The Israelites are thirsty and immediately start complaining. God tells Moses to take his staff and strike this rock in the middle of the desert and water would flow from it. Moses obeys, and water springs forth. Enough to quench the thirst of over a million people and their animals.

Later on, the Israelites find themselves right back in the very same place and in great need of water. Like clock-work the people begin complaining and Moses goes to God for answers. God brings Moses back to the same rock as before, but this time He tells Moses to take the staff, gather the assembly together, and SPEAK to the rock before their eyes instead of striking it.

Moses, in his anger and frustration, gathers the assembly together in front of the rock, takes his staff, and strikes the rock two times. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

Moses pays a great price for this little episode. God takes from Moses the honor of being the guy who gets to lead the people into the Promise Land. He was only allowed to stand upon a mountain and see this land from a distance, but he couldn’t lead the people into it.

For the first ten years of my Christian walk I shook my head at this story. It didn’t seem fair. In fact, it angered me because Moses was the most obedient guy in the bible, and God held him back from entering the Promised Land for something as stupid as this. The punishment just didn’t fit the crime in my opinio n. If THIS is what it takes for God to strip His promises away from us, I thought; then we’re ALL screwed. I eat this kind of disobedience for breakfast. Moses made this one little mistake after giving his entire life to God, and the Lord takes away the very thing Moses worked his entire life for. So much for the word “PROMISE.” What’s up with that anyway? What kind of a God would PROMISE you something and then not give it to you for getting pissed off at the same people God Himself wanted to wipe off the face of the earth just one book earlier??

You’d think that God would be even more understanding with Moses when it came to being upset with these particular people. Moses does something as simple as striking a rock instead of speaking to it and God takes everything away from him in an instant?

Years later, as I began to know the true Heart of God for relationship, this story took on a completely different meaning for me. I began to see the purpose of the two incidents being recorded in Scripture and what was really taking place in this story.

The first time the people needed water, God told Moses to take his staff and strike the rock two times in front of the Israelites. This is a picture of Christ being stricken. It’s also a picture of law. Moses is given exact directions on how to get the water and he follows them to a “T”. It’s almost caveman like. He strikes the rock twice with the same magic wand he struck the Nile river with, and water gloriously springs forth. All he’s got to do is follow the formula and the magic happens. It’s heartless. It’s mindless. Even a monkey could do it.

The next time around however, God instructed Moses to SPEAK TO THE ROCK. This is an entirely new covenant!!!!! This is a picture of the very essence of the New Covenant. It’s a picture of RELATIONSHIP. Can you see how this story goes from following rules andformulas to trusting in intimacy? Scripture later explains that this “Rock” was Christ, or a picture of Christ. He need not be stricken twice. He was crucified once, for all mankind. It is not rules and regulations that bring us closer to God at this point; it’s simply believing and trusting.

The reason why this is such a devastating story is because Moses insisted on doing things THE OLD WAY. He was presented with the quintessential spirit of the Promise, and he rejected it in front of the very people he was supposedly leading towards it. The lesson learned here is NOT that Moses should have obeyed God’s instructions, but that NO ONE can enter into the New Covenant realm through Old Covenant formulas. You cannot have it both ways.

The Promised Land wasn’t withheld from Moses because he disobeyed God. It was withheld because he embraced law-mindedness over intimacy. His “Believe” was put in the wrong thing. In fact, the Promised Land or the “Kingdom realm” is hidden from anyone who rejects its essence and relies on law to find it. It remains invisible to the man who attempts to obtain it through obedience, ritual, or formula. In fact, the law itself becomes the blinders that make such a person stumble around in darkness, unable to behold the Kingdom. Paul once said that, “... for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.” (2 Co 3:14-15)

Whether we want to admit to this or not, the sad fact is that Christianity HAS subscribed to Old Testament beliefs and because of it, we have not witnessed a damn thing! This is precisely why the vast majority of Christians in every denomination DON’T WITNESS. It’s not because they don’t care and they don’t want the Gospel message spread to the ends of the earth. People aren rsquo;t witnessing BECAUSE THEY HAVEN’T WITNESSED ANYTHING!!!!

In essence, God was saying to Moses, “Put down the stick.” It’s time to lay down your little sacred tools and start trusting in something entirely from the heart; relationship. This must have been a difficult request for Moses. He had come to rely on his staff. He had come to believe in all the tools, objects, and utensils that he personally supervised while they were being overlaid with gold and silver. We always associate the Pharisees with those who loved and relied on the law, but remember it was Moses who actually wrote it. ThePharisees even referred to the law as, “The law of Moses.” Imagine how difficult crossing over from the Old to the New must have been for Moses.

In this particular Testament-Taste-Test, Moses favored the Old wine over the New. He was the first in a long line of people who would make the very same choice. Christ Himself said, “No one after drinking Old (Testament) wine wants the New (Testament), for they say, “the old is better.” This was true for Moses and it’s true for most of modern day Christianity.

Sadly, the very heart of this story with Moses is being played out week after week in churches throughout America and the rest of the world; and just like Moses and the Israelites of his time, I see millions of frustrated Christians with their staff in hand, striking this rock, and that for all they’re worth trying to get a drink of water. They’re dying in the wilderness without getting so much as a glimpse of the Kingdom that was promised to them. Our leaders lead us towards it, and even right up to its edge, but they themselves never enter because they choose the old over the new.

Sadly, because Christianity today does not want to give up the Old Testament, we have done our best to weave both covenants together in a way that makes them void each other out completely. We’re safe, and then we’re not safe. We’re loved, and then we’re not loved. Salvation is free in one moment, and then in the next it’s not. We’re forgiven, and then we’re not. We’re paid for, and then we’re in debt. We’re not under law, and then we are. God will never leave us, and then He does. We’re set free, and then we’re caged again. We’re given a guarantee of what is to come, and then we’re told there’s no guarantee. It’s all free, and then we’re charged for it.

Christianity has become a deadly roller coaster of contradictions and confusion at every turn. We take people to the top, give them just a glimpse of the Kingdom, and then we go into a nose-dive into a world of fear, insecurity, confusion, and condemnation, followed by a series of loops and turns that actually make you believe you’re going somewhere. The problem is that when the ride is over, you’re right back where you started, and there’s a guy ushering you off the car and pointing towards the exit sign until next week.

This is a picture of what happens when we refuse to let go of the Old Testament and fully embrace the New. We simply cannot have it both ways. It’s like watching a guy get married, but still maintain a “single-man” mentality in his heart. He destroys himself, his wife, and their children. Marriage only works when you give yourself over to it fully and let go of the single life forever. The difference between Old Testament and New Testament is that now God is married to us. Though HE has not changed from one covenant to the next, THINGS have changed. The intimacy that He desires to share with us now, is a thousandtimes greater than it was then. There’s NO room for the Old covenant in our hearts anymore because we are married now. In the Old Testament, we dated Him. He kissed us good night at the end of of the day, and we waited until the next time He showed up. Today, however, He lives inside of us. We sleep together and are one in every respect. To intentionally bring back the Old Way is a betrayal to the very heart of what we have with Him now.

The more I speak with Christians from all over the world, the more convinced I’ve become that this generation has absolutely no idea what was accomplished on the cross. I think people are trained to just say, “Jesus died for our sins” without having any depth of understanding beyond that. Amazingly, I’ve found that even pastors and teachers are almost completely ignorant of the changes that have taken place because of the death and resurrection of Christ.

I honestly believe that this is more than just a theological misunderstanding.

There is something hypnotizing and alluring about the law. Pastors literally get a high when they go through Old Testament passages concerning the temple rituals and the law. They’ll memorize the priestly procedures and go over and over them in their mind like an obsessive compulsive person. Even the mere mention of grace sets them off and causes an inner panic. They despise the freedom brought on through the cross because it threatens to strip away the very thing they’re addicted to - control.

Every area of a modern day Christian’s life is so saturated with Old Covenant residue that I honestly wonder if Christians today would even choose a New Testament relationship if it were offered to them point blank. Most Christians have no comprehension of what that means. It quite possibly wouldn’t even be attractive to the average churched person in America.

Most of us have been raised in a world where Old Testament thinking is the dominant mindset. Every single principle in Christianity has been poisoned with this thinking.

When we worship, we believe that God shows up because we’re told, “He inhabits the praises of His people,” so we do our best to lift Him up so He’ll “show up.” When we pray, we do so with a “God is not in us” mentality. We throw out fleeces, pray the prayer of Jabez, and listen for an audible voice from the sky like Moses did. We even focus our eyes on the upper right-hand corner of our bedroom as though He’s somewhere out there looking down on us.

When we give, we sit around and wait to receive something back because we’ve been taught if we give freely, we will receive freely. We read our bibles because we think we’re still in the same predicament as King David was thousands of years before Christ. We think we have to meditate on it night and day or we won’t ever know God. We even refer to our bible as “The Word” as though the Word never became flesh and dwelt among us. We go to church thinking we’re still in the Old Testament Era when God’s temple was a tent or a building that people come to in order to meet with Him. Rather than embrace that WE are now the temple of God, we prefer it the old way. When we do show up to church, we do so with the same Old Testament mindset that people had in Moses’ day. We wait for our leader to go to the mountain top and get the revelation from God for us. Rather than know and hear God as individuals, we have traded that New Covenant attribute for the way it was before Christ.

Several years before I ultimately resigned from being a pastor, our church took part in the National Day of Prayer. This is a time when all denominations come together and set aside our differences just to ban together and pray for our nation. The key verse for this particular event was 2 Chronicles 7:14

“ If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”
This bible passage was plastered on billboards, canopies, brochures, and flyers all over the city. This passage completely negates the cross! It puts us right back in the pre-Christ time period when everything was based on works and law. Amazingly, I don’t recall one single Christian in my group of almost thirteen-thousand saying a single word about this. They all bought it hook-line-and-sinker. Today’s Church has eliminated the works of Christ altogether. Is it any wonder why we show up to these events with our staff in hand, striking any rock within reaching distance in an effort to get just a drop of water? We are a generation of women at the well who politely refuse Christ’s offer to give us living water that will spring up within us. We don’t want that. We like drawing water every day. It puts us in control.

I honestly believe that the only difference between the Old Testament lifestyle and modern day Christianity is that today, we don’t sacrifice bulls and goats. There is no doubt in my mind that if given the opportunity, many churches would go as far as to resurrect the whole sacrificial system again. According to the theology of a great number of Christian people today, the only ones who benefited from the death of Christ where the cattle and the sheep. Because of what Christ did, they get to live. We no longer sacrifice them, but other than that; NOTHING else has changed.

This mentality is what I referred to in my book, The Misunderstood God as an “Anti-Christ mentality.” At any point where we hold to Old Testament principles, we are embracing an Anti-Christ position. We are rejecting what was accomplished through Christ on our behalf. Our religion proudly proclaims the death of Christ on the cross, but we routinely deny the resurrection. Oh, don’t get me wrong; we pay it lip-service, but when it comes to what we teach and preach every week; we don’t believe a word of it.

We are infatuated, enthralled, enchanted, enamored, and hopelessly in love with Old Testament thinking. At the risk of sounding offensive or off color, I want to define exactly what the spirit behind modern day Christianity’s obsession with the Old Covenant is allabout. This generation detests intimacy and prefers to do things manually. They actually enjoy “beating the rock” if you will. It’s SO MUCH EASIER than

having to actually have relationship and involve another person. The “manual” way gives us all the control we crave, and make no mistake about it; our infatuation and attraction towards Old Testament principles, coupled with our complete disregard for the intimacy required in the New Testament relationship, is without question, a perfect picture of spiritual masturbation. It’s a way to avoid the intimacy of lovemaking and become one with ourselves.

If that offends you, let it, because this is the state of Christianity. Our religion is afraid to commit to the New Covenant completely because it knows the moment it does, people will be set free and they won’t continue to serve the system. Eventually everyone gets tired of the sticks and stones game and they want something everlasting. As long as we continue to vacillate between law and grace we will never experience the spring of living water from within that Christ talked about to the woman at the well. Our generation spends Sunday after Sunday beating the rock, in an effort to get another sip of something that was promised to us fully and naturally through Christ. Christ's words to the woman at the well are just as perplexing to us today as they were to the woman he was speaking to. We haven't found this water because we refuse to put our staffs down and speak to the rock!

Darin Hufford



Related post..................

OCD Church : Believing yourself "into" something you should be believing out from.

Wikipedia: OCD

Obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing anxiety, or by a combination of such thoughts (obsessions) and behaviors (compulsions). Symptoms may include repetitive handwashing; extensive hoarding; preoccupation with sexual or aggressive impulses, or with particular religious beliefs; aversion to odd numbers; and nervous habits, such as opening a door and closing it a certain number of times before one enters or leaves a room. These symptoms can be alienating and time-consuming, and often cause severe emotional and financial distress. The acts of those who have OCD may appear paranoid and come across to others as psychotic. However, OCD sufferers generally recognize their thoughts and subsequent actions as irrational, and they may become further distressed by this realization.

OCD is the fourth-most-common mental disorder, and is diagnosed nearly as often as asthma and diabetes mellitus.[1] In the United States, one in 50 adults has OCD.[2] The phrase "obsessive–compulsive" has become part of the English lexicon, and is often used in an informal or caricatured manner to describe someone who is meticulous, perfectionistic, absorbed in a cause, or otherwise fixated on something or someone.[3] Although these signs may be present in OCD, a person who exhibits them does not necessarily have OCD, and may instead have obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (OCPD), an autism spectrum disorder, or no clinical condition.

Codependency or codependence is a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life. It also often involves putting one's needs at a lower priority than others while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. [1] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including in families, at work, in friendships, and also in romantic, peer or community relationships.[1] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, and/or control patterns.[1]

Codependency describes behavior, thoughts and feelings that go beyond normal kinds of self-sacrifice or care taking. For example parenting is a role that requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice and giving a child's needs a high priority, although a parent could nevertheless still be codependent towards their own children if the care taking or parental sacrifice reached unhealthy or destructive levels.[1] Generally a parent who takes care of their own needs (emotional and physical) in a healthy way will be a better caretaker, whereas a codependent parent may be less effective, or may even do harm to a child.[1]

Codependency does not refer to all caring behavior or feelings, but only those that are excessive to an unhealthy degree.[2]

The dictionary definition of codependency differs, in that it requires one person to be physically or psychologically addicted, such as to heroin, and the second person to be psychologically dependent on that behavior. [3]

Chris Welch Facebook clips w/c 8th Nov 2010
‎"Doctor,I've got prayer OCD. Please help."
"How does it show?"
"I'm a struggling alone-me trying to break through to God. I'm with a group of friends who have the same problem."

‎"What you are part of Prayer Anonymous?"

"No,we're all still co-dependent."
"That's serious"
"Yes doctor.We pray for our prayer meetings.Sometimes we pray for our prayer meetings about our revival meetings.I have to sing and pray for a certain amount of time or I go out of the Spirit and things go wrong."
"How about your friends and family?"
"Oh,they fit round the OCD."
‎"I see...."

"Thing is,praying to a separate "out there" kind of God is so hard.I mean how do you know you have done enough?When will He be pleased enough with me?We're trying to heap enough words like the Gentiles do to get a revival going."
"Do you ever feel you've broken through?"
"Yes,wonderfully so. But I can't live there, so I begin the cycle all over again."

"Do you know anything about the gospel at all?"
"Yes.I know I'm poor and wretched and God is way out there and I have to work very hard in prayer to reach Him.I have soaking CDs in my car.I have sermons and prayer aids and I have a whole bunch of co -OCD people helping me?"
"Did no one lay a proper foundation of the true gospel in any of you?"
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Chris Welch There's a time when you lose your religion to gain the Living Christ, but putting off the glittering clothing may be the hardest thing you ever suffer in your life.

Linda Novek Oh yes...and not in leaving the dead doing behind, but in what your loved ones think, who are still engrained! Hard to be, "labeled", like a traitor or something. But I understand where they are, of course.

Chris Welch Actually,as horrible as it sounds...part of the glittering clothing is "that part of us" that has been relating with" that part of them". Most times...not always, we receive them back in a resurrection form , days,months years later.And if not, hundreds or thousands of new people to fill the void!!!!This is especially true in our day as we see masses crawling out of the woodwork...............OF THE CROSS.

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Chris Welch I nearly never have times of prayer.I certainly have as little as possible to do with OCD prayer,Why? Because as a born again son of God ,I AM prayer.Jesus is that in me.If He is not that in you yet,He soon will be...believe in the power of that Jesus life within you,forming the same Person in you as in me.

Judy Lawrence yep, can't be anything else. Blessings to you Chris.

Allen Mills obsessive compulsive disorder prayer, prayer based on illogical fears and assumptions, and worry. an ocd prayer has no faith in it.
2 Timothy 1:7
God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, of love, and a sound mind.

Chris Welch Allen,OCD prayers are when the "activity" takes over from the spirit reality.Gentiles heap up their prayers. We are told to enter our inner room and meet with our Daddy God there.We "shut"our door to the ceaseless brain traffic that keeps chuntering on with sense information about how bad things are and how pointless it is communing with the God of the Universe. But precisely in this place of Union do we receive the secrets that we then "faith into being" and later shout from the rooftops.Like a baby originating from 2 cells....these things grow and burst forth into material manifestation! You can see a real world example if you listen to the 1989 3rd level message...then see what's happening on the net 20 years later.

(much of this last statement comes from Ed Miller).

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OCD CHURCH

It seems strange to be writing in quite a negative way, but a very similar way to Gerald Coates,George Tarleton,David Mansell, John Noble, Maurice Smith, just some of the London house church leaders of the early to mid 70s. In 'Fulness' magazine and various booklets and books the prophetic word went out that we should meet "to purpose". That God was a God of purpose, and we should be sensitive to His voice and meet together in this purpose.

Ofcourse, now things are more subtle. The ways of the Spirit have now become this lethal mix of Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil behaviour systems and genuine Holy Spirit activity.

From David Swan "Moving Into the Holy of Holies"
Those at the Holy Place level may occasionally achieve some spiritual exploits. This middle stage (the Holy Place level) also speaks of the soulish realm and a mixture of the flesh and the spirit. At times, the spirit comes forth beautifully where upon it blesses, but at other times, the ugly flesh is manifested too, AND DOES HARM. This half flesh and half spirit is typified by Ishmael! This soulish mixture is not your final destination as it is impure and imperfect.
God DETESTS and ABHORS such mixture. Leviticus 19:19 warns against such mixture and compromises: " you shall keep My statutes" You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you".

This mixed level is not your final destination. If you want to move from the soul level to the spirit level and if you want to do great exploits for God, you must go beyond the Holy Place.END

OCD Church is made up of repetitive activities for the sake of the activity.Gentiles heap up words etc
People soon learn that there is "some sort of high" to be obtained by singing certain songs.
OCD Church recognizes that by having prayer meetings about everything (at this Spirit-filled level) they can just about be guaranteed some success in everything undertaken. They are like Jacob mechanically "using " faith to draw in speckled and striped sheep, through special spiritual techniques.
OCD Church people have no clear identity about who they are. When not actively engaged in spiritual issues and wellworn pathways they quickly "revert" to relating according to who they still think they are. An evangelist visited a conference of ours and one of the worship group, during the session break, quickly asked the evangelist to lay hands on him to receive more of this evangelistic gift and anointing. He sank immediately to the floor. Totally oblivious to what was happening two feet away, the rest of the worship group guffawed and japed through lunch. For them, this was a time to refresh and recharge and just have a good time in order to be ready to lead the next session. All of them are used to this form of prayer and have been there themselves, so i guess did not think anything of it. I felt extreme dispeace about this though.

OCD Church people use prayer as a kind of building up enough water behind a dam in order that hopefully one day the dam will burst. This blindfolded dart players method is used for praying and believing for
some vague revival
some sense of personal breakthrough
for believing themselves somehow into some transformation of the Cross
for the death of the Old Man
for some kind of anointing
that some day they will have a ministry like their dear leadership, when the fact that they are praying in this ludicrous way calls into question the very ministry of their leadership
for some unity to come
for a more successful life and relationships

OCD churches cannot be addressed in a mature way, and ministries must pick their way through half-beliefs and half truths to try and get to the bottom of what Spirit foundation has actually been laid.

"Hereafter we see no man after the flesh" reads we see every man and woman after the flesh.

OCD Churches do not understand these things

that we have died with Christ, the struggle is over.

the Two Goats, and the fact there is no independent self-operated self

that meetings are part of one seamless life flow of the Indwelling Christ -they only identify Christ as a particular feeling in a meeting.

they do not understand about the " freefall of faith" and losing control

OCD Churches are typified by

repeated prayer yielding no or few results in healing and the miraculous

controlling religious spirits that cut right across the Lord Jesus Christ bringing His glory

lack of recognition of Spirit normality, because it just isnt wacky or freaky enough...how many would have recognised Rees Howells in the street? Yet in terms of prayer at least, is credited with the serious overthrow of the dictators in the Second World War. Yes I know others prayed but we know of no others that were groomed over decades particularly for this specific task by the Holy Spirit.

OCD churches dont realise that the very "light within them " is it turns out darkness. This praying to a distant "out there God" compulsively repeatedly fruitlessly, is all part of the "delusion of separation" since the Fall. The very prayer activity is the RELIGIOUS WING of this separation.

OCD churches place too high an emphasis on meetings and nearly none on the "right believing and seeing " of members for all the other hours in the week. This actually keeps the OCD church higher on the agenda than it should be in terms of Christ's overall activities in the earth, because people are unable to live properly without it. There is an absolutely fruitless relationship going on between members, church and leadership, that helps to keep members co-dependant and never growing much, while ensuring the continued payment of professional leadership, who are in fact doing the opposite of what they are called to do....

bring forth Christ in their flock.

OCD Churches are vague about everything so that no one can ever accuse them of failing.Real faith is specific and demands a leadership who are prepared to put their neck on the line.

OCD churches often run programmes on this and programmes on that...not realising that at the end of the day it's the same old scriptures that have to be believed ON, for a certain while until they are confirmed as firm inner believing and knowing by the Spirit. Romans 6,7 and 8 are every bit as real a process as the belief in and the receiving of the baptism of the Spirit.

OCD Churches limit themselves to the Blood of Christ, having no clue about "eating the Body of Christ" and the meaning of the Body death of Christ. Singing songs about forgiveness each week and going no further doctrinally is a very similar religious loop to the Catholics attending confession, and to the Anglicans going through the almost identical subject matter in their liturgy.

It further confirms this repetitive activity of "going to Church" rather than the words of Jesus:

neither on this mountain nor at Jerusalem shall you worship me. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
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related post:
Seven signs that you may be under law

1. You’re not 100% sure if you’re 100% forgiven

God doesn’t do forgiveness in installments. All your sins were forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13) when God the Son abolished sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb 9:26). Neither God the Father (Heb 8:12) nor God the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:17) remembers your sin any more. Still not convinced? Then read this.

2. You believe Christians have a duty or responsibility to serve the Lord

Duty and responsibility are synonyms for obligation so this is a mind-set that says we are obliged, or indebted, to God. I’ve heard it said that “Jesus has done so much for you, what will you do for Him?” Indeed, God has given us everything. Ever wondered why? He did it “that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:7). He is not just rich in grace, but exceedingly rich. You cheapen His grace by thinking you have a duty or responsibility to pay Him back. Your responsibility is to believe that He is good and true! It is not our obligation to serve the Lord, it is our royal privilege. It is not our duty, but our great delight.

3. You suffer from performance anxiety.

Performance anxiety is a rational response to the uncertainty of life under the old covenant. But anxiety has no place in the new. We are to draw water from the wells of salvation with joy (Is 12:3). We walk under law in anxiety and fear, but we walk under grace with joy and thanksgiving! “Happy are those whose wrongs are forgiven, whose sins are pardoned! Happy is the person whose sins the Lord will not keep account of!” (Rms 4:7-8, GNB) God has made us His Sons, and with such a Father we need not be worried about anything (Mt 6:32). He is our Provider who delights to give good gifts to those who ask Him (Mt 7:11). Those who serve under the law are insecure, but sons are secure.

4. You think, “God will bless me as I do my part”

The essence of a life enslaved by law is the mindset that says, “I must do something for God.” The motivation may be to earn salvation or some other blessing. But this mindset is anti-Christ and anti-cross. Contrary to what you may think, we are not justified by what we but do grace alone (Rms 3:24). Grace and works don’t mix (Rms 11:6). (And if you’re thinking of James 2:24, read this.) Grace, peace, and every spiritual blessing have been given to us by God our Father through Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3). We are not called to work for God, but to do the work of God. (Click the link to learn more about mixing grace with works.)

Grace is God’s part; faith is our part (Eph 2:8). Faith is a positive response to what God has done. Faith is saying, “thank you Jesus!” Faith is healing the sick and casting out demons, because Jesus made provision for our healing and deliverance at the cross.

5. You think we need more preaching on repentance.

Repentance saves lives, but preaching on repentance doesn’t lead to repentance! A law mind-set emphasizes what people must do (repent!), but grace proclaims what God has already done (everything!). A law mindset uses inferior incentives (fear, judgment) that lead to temporary changes in behavior, but grace (God is good and He loves you!) changes the hardest heart. If you want people to genuinely repent, preach the goodness of God (Rms 2:4).

6. You think you have to overcome life’s trials or Jesus will blot out your name.

It really isn’t about you. Jesus is our overcomer and our victory (Jn 16:33). Everyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God has already overcome the world, because The Overcomer lives in them (1 Jn 5:4-5). Jesus promised the overcomers at Sardis that He would never blot out their name. Ever since then insecure performance-oriented believers have feared He might change His mind and do exactly that. For more on overcoming, read this.

7. You mainly think of following Jesus in terms of giving up things.

Christianity is a divine exchange, our life for his. No doubt you’ve heard people say that following Jesus costs you everything. And it does. You cannot call him Lord without renouncing the right to your own life. But see what you get in exchange! If salvation means nothing more to you than self-denial and personal sacrifice, you’ve missed the whole point. Christ offers us an unfair exchange; our life for His. God favors us with this exchange. We give him our sinful little selves and get everything in return. A law mindset looks at what we give up, but a grace mindset rejoices at what He offers in return! Stop thinking about what you gave up (nothing you could keep) and start enjoying what He has given you (everything!).