The Non Jostling Kingdom

Illustration From Instagram site   drawn_to_him

I am a Prophet

And I know I'm a prophet
Because unlike Graham Cooke , Rick Joyner and Peter Stott,
I AM NOT A PROPHET.

I am like Jesus, prophesying something greater than the whole of the charismatic movement, than the whole of all the spontaneous gifts of prophecy by the Holy Spirit,
than the whole of the order of Prophet that is a grace ministry, one of the five listed in Ephesians 4.

What I am prophesying is the mass take up of Galatians 2.20 which means by the time we have stuffed ourselves full by eating of Jesus Christ continually, we too get to speak like He did.

Everywhere He went He was saying outrageous statements like One greater than Jonah is here. Or before Abraham was I am.
Or one greater than the Temple is here.

One hilarious day on Facebook about 8 years ago I had two conversations that reminded me of Watchman Nee talking about the Song of Solomon phrase:
"Like a Shulammite Dance between Two armies ".

We are completely outside the binary order  left and right. We march straight ahead.

On that very day I had somebody arguing with me that as the "perfect" has now come all gifts of the Spirit and the baptism in the Spirit have now been removed. We have the Bible. Except the Bible says we must set our minds on the Spirit and says nothing at all about remaining in the narrow confines of our leftbrains as evangelicals preach.

You know the cessationist gospel....either because you are one....or are still secular....or because you have been on the rough end of it.

But simultaneous to that  some South African prophet was inviting me to a prophetic conference.
I was in Graham Cooke's first ever prophetic training group in 1987 here in Fareham Baptist church rooms.UK.
Having been called to preach the thirdlevel message even before meeting people who led me to Norman Grubb's last book YES I AM and chapter 31 called "On, Now to the Third level", and that was back in 1989, why would I now have the slightest interest in a 2012 conference  which only taught about one type of grace gift ministry when now I know Jesus Christ , the complete package in my being, as me.

When God gave me a first foretaste of the thirdlevel at full power velocity  for two weeks when I was 20 in 1978, yes all sorts of gifts were flowing through me.  I rarely have been used in them since, because I believe we were the generation who had to go up the hill of the Lord as mentioned in Psalm 24 and also The Psalms of Ascent, to rediscover how the full priesthood order of Melchizedek works.
And you remember Jesus spent 30 years training without doing one miracle.
it's a life we He consigned to Himself with the Father in eternity when He said
"It is written of me in the book , I have come to do they will O Lord, behold a body you have prepared for me."
....why would I now have the slightest interest in a 2012 conference  which only taught about one type of grace gift ministry when now I know Jesus Christ , the complete package in my being, as me.

As Norman Grubb says, it's a whole step change different of intercession, because Roams 12.1 is saying , since all the rest of Romans teachings are true, .......
And I have a body.....
then I will offer it for the Master's complete usage.
Not just in a meeting. But for the rest of my life.
And ofcourse this could be a whole risk experiement because we only get one go at life. And if it doesnt work, we are kind of stuffed!!!!!!

But what it does do is render any previous idea of what a prophet is, or a ministry, or anything previously done in churches, as absolutely no relevance at all.

This is after all about bringing the KINGDOM OF GOD TO EARTH.
Who's even interested in the charismatic movement?
In prophetic conferences?
In churches as they are run now  by tithe funded circus ringmasters ?  There's nothing about a pastor, funded by an Old Testament tithe, running a church as a solo manager. That all comes from the Catholic church , with the name PRIEST changed conveniently to the more scriptural pastor.

When TV was first introduced people had the bright idea of bringing drama straight from the stage to TV. So if you watch the earliest TV dramas they are theatrical plays done in TV sets, usually with wobbly walls like the early Star Trek episodes or Dr Who.
Then portable cameras were invented and people could film outside, so they didn't need to make sets!!!

When Lutherans fished the gospel out of the Catholic pond they changed the priest name to Lutheran Pastor. They kept the confessional box and the same idea of somebody preaching information like a rabbi in a synagogue. That has more or less continued  to this very day with Bill Johnson at Redding on his podium, and loads of Talking heads on Christian satellite TV like Joseph Prince and Joel Osteen.
it hasnt hit people yet that Galatians 2.20 is like "portable", it means you can eat Jesus Christ, and be totally portable and be filmed being just you.....but as Norman Grubb says, it's with that Romans 6 wink....because you know that you know that you know it isnt you. You know that you have died and your spiritual identity is actually a new creation Christ you fusion. You dont have to fake anything. YOU ARE IT.

It takes a while to carry this believing through, which is why proverbs 3 says we have to acknowledge God in everything for a while to retrain our senses from being this Genesis 3 "Alone me" into knowing , hey, I'm not an orphan. I am Christ in my form. The Bible says so.

Other churches dont like it that the Bible says this . Catholics and Anglicans dont even like it that it says you have to consciously repent first then be baptised in water.  The Baptist denomination as a whole dont like it that it says we can be baptised in the Spirit.
Denominations all argue about everything.
John 7.17 -18 is really simple.
If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.
Right there is why we have schisms of 50,000 denominations as refers to houses of God, and that includes the original two houses who are still immature, Jews and Catholics.
This is why Hebrews 6 was written.
This is why Paul wrote to the Corinthians  I cant write to you yet as being mature because you still say you are followers of individual preachers....Paul ,Peter, Apollo . Everyone gives themselves away.

How God tests Saul, even softened ones

Many people may find this form of test hard to take. It was put in the Bible for us to learn some of the subtleties of flesh and spirit.  This is the relationship of Samuel with Saul and concerns only seven days between chapter 10 and 13. Now Saul reigned 42 years ( *1 Sam13.1) but it was all over in virtually 7 days in terms of anointing and choosing. That should pierce us to the heart.
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1 Samuel 10:8 And you shall go down before me to Gilgal; and behold, I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and sacrifice peace offerings. You shall wait seven days until I come to you and show you what you should do.”
1 Samuel 11.14 -15 Then Samuel said to the people, “Come and let us go to Gilgal and renew the kingdom there.” 15 So all the people went to Gilgal, and there they made Saul king before the Lord in Gilgal. There they also offered sacrifices of peace offerings before the Lord; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.
1 Samuel 13:5 Now the Philistines assembled to fight with Israel, 30,000 chariots and 6,000 horsemen, and people like the sand which is on the seashore in abundance; and they came up and camped in Michmash, east of Beth-aven. 6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait (for the people were hard-pressed), then the people hid themselves in caves, in thickets, in cliffs, in cellars, and in pits. 7 Also some of the Hebrews crossed the Jordan into the land of Gad and Gilead. But as for Saul, he was still in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.

8 Now he waited seven days, according to the appointed time set by Samuel, but Samuel did not come to Gilgal; and the people were scattering from him. 9 So Saul said, “Bring to me the burnt offering and the peace offerings.” And he offered the burnt offering. 10 As soon as he finished offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him and to [e]greet him. 11 But Samuel said, “What have you done?” And Saul said, “Because I saw that the people were scattering from me, and that you did not come within the appointed days, and that the Philistines were assembling at Michmash, 12 therefore I said, ‘Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not asked the favor of the Lord.’ So I forced myself and offered the burnt offering.” 13 Samuel said to Saul, “You have acted foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, for now the Lord would have established your kingdom [f]over Israel forever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not endure. The Lord has sought out for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has appointed him as ruler over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”

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Here's what happened in Havant Church with Peter Stott. Around 1995 he had cancer of the bowel. He was close to death. God raised him but during that time, which was also Toronto.....God brought Peter into a whole new realm of intimacy. Peter then began seeing that his ministry style had to change from pastor pyramid to a much more Spirit led format. He softened the structure and appointed others to have far more hands on control in things but also training them in sensitivity in meetings. There was another strong wave of anointing. Around this time Graham Cooke who was still moving with Peter in the UK in prophets conferences came to the church before I was there and just spoke this sentence...... Moses my servant is dead. The Spirit swept through the meeting and everyone laughed in a Toronto kind of way. Right at that moment it was like the start of the Spirits work to sweep away lawbased Christianity and with it the rigid pyramid architecture. Now prophets are anointed to do stuff like this by saying one sentence. Even at the time you would be hard pressed to articulate what was going on because the Spirit is doing it all and at a simple surface level it just looks like people laughing. But this is how God's real stuff works. He operates way above the understanding of human wisdom. So this marked a major shake up in the church. I was like a test for them. Bringing me in in 2000 God even prepared the way for them by telling them somebody would come from London. I did come.from London but via Emsworth.....so this was a similar thing to those who expected the Messiah from out of Egypt. Jesus did come.from out of Egypt. Now I wasn't a messiah but I did have a thirdlevel anointing to begin sharing the thirdlevel. I never had the full Jesus treatment that I did in Emsworth where they physically carted me away in 1988.......this was already after the Toronto wave.....so they were that much further in the Spirit. But still, somewhat scaled.down, I had the same treatment I received at Emsworth. In a brethren based church they operate from the scripture about first one person, then several people then as a church you are disciplined. So I had to meet with Peter and the elders in a backroom midweek meeting with them to be told that I could no longer speak publicly. This was around 4 years ago. For disciplines sake I went there for a few months and did just that but after prophecy was not even being heard....( strangely they allowed this.....Perhaps because one of my words named the church in the Spirit as the turn around church) I was encouraged by others on here to leave. So I am telling you this anecdote to explain that God is not messing with our generation. When He speaks by the Spirit to us in how He runs His church as he did direct with Peter during his time with bowel cancer.......He then follows through with tests to see if we will recognise someone moving in humility. Because this new order of leadership isn't like Saul......it is a David leadership from a psalm 51 heart.
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A similar sort of thing is happening in all our relationships.   Can we walk together in Light or do we force ourselves.

Even more bizarre is when two prophetic types get together over tea and biscuits in 1 Kings 13   (Both Peter and I by the way are prophetic types. )

More Local Words of Prophecy

I think there is nothing here of a too personal nature, but it will give an idea of the flavour here in Havant Church at the moment.
Every Sunday in the last month or so some very key words of prophecy have been given by completely different individuals....some passing through like Stuart Wentworth.

SUNDAY JULY 22

PETER STOTT:

This is a time of illumination on your land - what is unrighteous is being revealed.... But I say to you; do not be afraid for this is necessary, for my heart is moved concerning your land and the people of your land and I yearn for them.  And says the Lord, what I expose is only so that I can cleanse and remove and set free. 

But I would say to you;  the same light that would shine over the land and over your society would shine in my church. And I say to you that I am going to come with an intensity of my light that you have longed for and cried out for. And I’m going to touch your hearts and I’m going to touch your lives and I would say to you that ‘light defines darkness’. So do not be afraid because I am coming to define darkness even in your own hearts. I am going to cause you to see things that you’ve not seen before so that you can come and that you can bring them to me and that the light of my truth and my purity will shine in your hearts and the hearts of my people in this land. 

Do not be afraid, do not be afraid, because am I not a God of love and of grace? Have I not made provision for all of those things? But I say to you, many of my people are bound up in darkness and I want to set them free. So do not fear the day of illumination that has come, for you have cried for it and now, says the Lord, the light of my glory is beginning to shine.  And I declare to you that these will be days of my glory. I declare to you that as you walk the streets you will bring definition to people – they will see you and they will see me. The light of my glory will shine through you and they will come to my light even as I have promised.

So I would say to you draw close into me, yield to me, allow my light to shine all over you, allow me to search your heart. For I only purpose to loose you and set you free and give you a joy that you have never known before. So my people, be aware that the day of illumination has dawned in your land.

SUNDAY JULY 29

STUART WENTWORTH:

As I came in this morning there was a real sense that this is the Body of Christ, that this is the Father’s house. We’re all on a journey of coming back into the Father’s house.  As I came in this morning I felt the door of the Father’s house is open and He’s inviting us all in. It’s the body of Christ and the head of the body is here.  There is such a reality here – the problem is when we meet every week we don’t always realise it – when we come back and visit we walk in and come into the presence of God. There is a corporate presence of God here, there is an awareness of His Spirit, an awareness of His house, an awareness of His body. There’s a healing and we step into it.

I need healing and I want to be in the body where I can receive healing – just by being ‘in the body’, just by being in Father’s house.  I don’t need to ask anyone to pray for healing; I am in the house of healing, I am in the Healing Rooms. I’m here – you are here and the healing power of God is flowing in this place through the body out of the Father’s heart by the Spirit into your heart, into your mind, and into your body. He is here, beloved, and you can’t explain it but I know when I walked in I walked into healing, into presence, into peace, into joy because He is here. He was here before you were here – He was waiting for you.  

It’s wonderful – I want to tell you there are not many places where I feel that. God has done such a work here; I know when I was here before God gave me such a clear word for you that you had passed over, that you had walked in, you had walked through the gate and I want to tell you you have not walked out - you are still in! You are walking in your inheritance because your inheritance is the Lord Himself. Because as Paul says we are priests and the priests didn’t have any land allotted to them because the Lord was their inheritance and He is our inheritance and we’re walking in our inheritance because we’re walking in Him.  He’s here – you don’t have to do anything – it’s wonderful!

Lord Jesus, gather your people, gather your sheep.  You are the good shepherd; You know the ones that have been cast out on the mountains and are still hurting and wounded and noone’s looking after them. But Lord Jesus you are the good shepherd and you go seeking them and you bring them back rejoicing, carrying them because they can’t walk by themselves, but you bring them back into your house.

WENDY WILBRAHAM:

On Friday when some of us were here at 8.12am ringing the bells, the bells were ringing out across the nation.  Many churches took part, but the significance of Friday morning was that 70 years to that day Churchill had asked for the churches across the nation to ring the bells which they did.  Afterwards it was recorded that up until the bells were rung we had lost every battle but after the bells rang out across the nation we began to win every battle. 

We were hit afresh with the significance of this – you know there is a lot of sadness here, we know we’ve been in a battle and it’s been a hard road. But you know, something has changed and there are battles at this very moment being won in the spiritual realm that we think we have lost but we haven’t. These battles are being won so we need to keep our eyes fixed on Him and know that the reality of those battles being won is going to hit us on earth very soon. 

And as we keep our eyes fixed on Him, He’s going to change our hearts, He’s going to give us fresh hope and fresh faith and He wants us to start dreaming dreams again.  He wants us to open ourselves up again to those dreams and those visions where we might have shut ourselves down and we’ve said ‘we don’t want to hear any more, God, because it’s too hard and it’s not happening yet’. It’s time to let go and say ‘Yes, Lord, we want to hear it again, we want you to enable us to see again’ because those battles are being won in the spiritual realm. They are – the tide has turned – we need to believe it, church family, and begin to pull down some of those victories from the spiritual realm into our own situations, into our families, into our own lives where we need them.

SUE SHORE:

I had a real sense of what God was saying to us as I came in, and it’s simply that what He sees when He sees us is that we are a faithful people. As I looked around I saw some people who have been here 20 or 30 years and what God is saying is that you are a faithful people. You may not feel you have faith for many things but you are a faithful people because you are here. God is saying that He has developed in us a perseverance and a faith through our faithfulness, and we serve a faithful God.

God IS faithful and He IS going to do those things.

SUNDAY AUGUST 5

CONCHI – José Blanco’s mother (Spain):

The Spirit says, Awaken,awaken! You who are asleep - rise up. Use the weapons that I have placed in your hands because the enemy is coming like a roaring lion to devour you, because he knows that doors are going to be opened which will release an outpouring of water with so much force that it will go from one country to another; with the same force it comes out of one country it will arrive in the next. You must be ready - clean, and when this arrives you must immerse yourselves in the river.  For this water brings seeds of mine - if you are asleep the currents will take it away and there won’t be life.  Awaken! He who has ears to hear hear.

And you the voice that cries out in the wilderness, continue to cry out day and night.  Cry out for my servants, that they won’t be touched by a spirit of sickness or other spirits.  Cry out for those that are here, cry out for those that have left, cry out for those that have never even come in. Cry out for my children and wait. Because I will send prophets who will anoint your heads and I myself will crown you with my hands. Those who have ears to hear, hear my voice. Because I am here and I love you. Amen

JANET SIMMONDS:

I can really feel joy in the house this morning and a sense of victory. I was thinking about the Olympics - we have won a lot of gold medals for a small nation and I was asking why have we been so successful? Why have we done so well?  There is the investment, money, buildings and time that have been given in preparation.  There’s been all the training, commitment and sacrifice of the athletes, and there have been the crowds who’ve been cheering them on. Time and again the winners have said we heard a wall of sound, we heard our names being called out and it spurred us on.  

The Lord showed me our nation not just with a few gold medals but covered in gold, the whole of our nation - all of the islands glistening in gold. I believe God is saying we have invested as Christians down the centuries in prayer, time and commitment... I believe what we are seeing in the Olympics is representative of what God is doing in the spiritual realm.

Why has God blessed our nation?  We are not better than any other - but God has said He is going to come and flood our nation.  He is saying thank you for all the praying, thank you for all the doing, all the training, all the work you have done - even practical work. The Lord says don’t forget the crowd of witnesses who are cheering us on.  They are looking over the ramparts of heaven and are saying ‘Come on people, come on church, God is doing something and you are gold’.

JAYNE WITHINSHAW:

Right at the beginning of this year I asked God for a word for the church and I’ve carried this word for quite a long time, but today I feel it’s time to give it.  A line from Handel’s Messiah came into my mind which was ‘every valley shall be exalted.’ It ran through my mind and I found it and listened to it.

I asked God what He was saying to me - I didn’t really understand it at first, but then He said that this is the year many people will go through a valley experience in the church. The valley experience will be different things to different people; relational difficulties, sickness, bereavement, loss of employment, financial worries - anything like this that is a valley experience. And God said this is the year of the valley experience, but He didn’t stop there - He said as a word of encouragement to us that ‘every valley will be exalted’. God is not going to leave you in the valley; God is with you in the valley and He says even though you may feel you are walking through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not leave you. My rod and my staff will bring comfort to you in the valley.

Then He said, when you are in the valley look up for where does your help come from? It comes from Him. Look up when you are in the valley. But there is only one way, though, out of the valley and it is to walk uphill, it is to walk and to climb. But he wants you know that He will be with you, that His rod and His staff will be with you and one day when your valley has been exalted you will stand on the top of the mountain and you will look down on your valley but you will not be the same person as you were at the bottom of the valley.  There is victory in the valley! - God says ‘every valley will be exalted’.

For More examples of the use of Prophecy over churches and groups
Prophecies that give the template for God's workings in His Body in these last decades since some of them were given.
Tommy Hicks Vision

Glimpses we see in Robin Harfouche's testimony

Robin Harfouche's testimony highlights some interesting points, which I will list here to underline them for you as you hear her story.

• The importance of family lines. There is a battle for lines in families. Robin's family contains witchcraft on one side and Pentecostal Christians on the other.
• The reference to the largest entertainment agency behind Michael Jackson, Shirley Maclaine, and so many others directly in the control of mediums and spiritists, and their "obedience to bring in the next thing", in this case the New Age message
• Spirit Guide is 9 foot tall. Think Nephilim in Old Testament.
• The spiritual uses natural means , in this case a "door" to try and kill Robin
• Churches can be power centres of Christ. As soon as she entered, she was healed from top to toe.
  She was shown a vision of the end time church in 1986. She saw the closing of the gap between the heavenlies and the earthly. This is ofcourse fully borne out in Jacob's dream of the ladder stretched between the earth and the heavens with angels ascending and descending.  It is also born out  in a prototype way in the Key of David meetings people come for in Havant once a month.
• Robin talks about creative miracles, and we see that lady with the vaporised metal block. This happened a few years ago with Peter Stott in Spain where a metal rod in someone's back vaporised and the man somersaulted to the front of the meeting - an absolute impossibility a few moments before.

Havant Church fragments - mobile vids

Jacqui sharing. All the more interesting in the light of subsequent events.God first gave Jacqui such a release of joy in the 2011 Glory Conference. Meanwhile the natural circumstances have been totally opposite. In the Spirit there is no conflict. Song fragment ... to see Your face worthy is the Lamb Peter Stott shares

Havant Church  was established under the ministry of Peter and Mariette Stott in 1981, with input from Tony Morton and Graham Cooke (now in the USA). Peter and Mariette are very much a team ministry and have installed a team of elders and pastors for running the local church here, as they were being used more and more further afield abroad and in the UK.

It is a small church with quite a large reach. Members go regularly to Spain , Argentina and the USA, the emphasis being on sharing as a Body. Their DNA has suited me no end in the fact that no one really sticks out. This is a great source of confusion to those who are used to one man strident ministries. There is leadership, but it is more to facilitate the growth of members. Within the church are many who do play a role, but only in the context of all the others....and NOT, as one would expect , in their own right.

Molly Osbourne for example heads up Lydia Women's prayer in the UK, but you would hardly know she was there. Ed and Liz Harding  have their own Christian Publishing and Import company, and also have regularly served   in the  African and Indian continents in conferences in their own right. They have experienced extraordinary miracles in both .

At the moment, and in tandem with pressing into healing as a church, there have never been so many at one time seriously ill with life threatening cancers and other conditions.

Other hallmarks which are quite different and frazzling to others coming in from other streams concern music and young people's "work".  Although many are skilled musicians, the priority is not on producing a "band track - finished sound", nor is it a question of anything goes...but the priority is on opening our hearts to God and following the direction a meeting is going in. I  found the question of "children's work" frazzling, but the path followed was believing for God to lead in the whole issue, and for Him to raise up the youth in their own life in Him.

Some members have involved themselves heavily in local estates, and  really enjoyed input from YWAM in the last year. Others run Beacon Furniture, raising money for debt  counselling, and also providing free furniture on occasions through social services contacts.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God

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Shirley Unger Cunningham, Donna Crowley, Nancy Gilmore and 6 others like this..
Chris Welch The Word is not a book.The Word comes as unstoppable force but often barely discernible,like the growth of grass through concrete.Or it comes clear as a bell but nearly incomprehensible.God said Let there be light , but even on the material level it's scientifically barely understood,though we live with it every day.Mary was told she was to have God's baby and as the method was not clear she gave the wisest of replies.And mostly it's what we have to do too."Be it unto me according to your Word"
12 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 2 peopleLoading....Chris Welch I want my life to be a picture to you of how things work or appear not to work. I trust that Word within me more than my faith. The Life in the Melchizedek order post on my blog (have no computer to give a link)showed how I had received tha...t God was birthing a whole new level of light in the Body of Christ,actually that was Annie Miller in the 70s,see her visions books, but I began calling it 3rd level Christianity.This was a word of faith to me.It was Word to me. But my faith level was low, so seeing a need for Word in the UK I set up a video lending library which went nowhere.But to my very doorstep,before THEY even got their specific CALL came Rory and Wendy of God Channel. It was one of the oddest meetups in history,because none of us really knew what God was doing. I mumbled 3rd level stuff for an hour and they left, a bit puzzled themselves...See more
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch What this shows is the Word is preeminent.The Word positions us.It was greater than my faith which had just come up with a video lending library....whereas before my eyes were the two God was using to open the first really barrier free Satt...ellite God channel into all the earth. But the Word that was in me is still GREATER than that ,and I was able to sow a seed in that utterly crazy Melchizedek order fashion (similar to Jesus at the well in John 4) where I shared about the 3rd Level. God channel so far is a One and Two level affair only.See more
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch So the Word that comes to me is not My Word, it is Our Word.It's the same that comes to you.Day to Day pours forth this speech on a subterranean level (Ps 19).It is "greater" than our faith,but our faith comes out of the "hearing",the spiritual hearing,which is birthed by that Word.Here are 2 recent examples:
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Also on my blog is a recording of the Father word I gave at 2008 Havant Conference.Peter Stott was packed out with insight on intimacy with the Father.I was not...at that time I had no idea of its importance for the church.So,this to me, barely discernible Word, opened out and out ,to now thinking...exactly what sort of Christianity was I in before? But it seems we keep thinking that as we "see Light in His Light"
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch In 2009 I delivered a song about Jesus moving the furniture in heaven back into its right places.I had a barely discernible notion that it was to do with God restoring His order and NOT MANS to the Church.But again had no idea as to the eno...rmity of the problem.But right on cue Jack Fortenberry sends me "Corinthian Elders" and we see the almost universal Pastor Pyramid. I never, never thought at the time it would all bring me into such conflict with the very church I gave the Word in. And I never dreamed I'd be writing a post on Peter Stott and others Apostolic Protectionism....because in terms of what exists in the UK,Havant is up there with what surely must be among the best churches. Yet again,in His light we see light, and again "the very light that was in us was in fact darkness".See more
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch So, the Word first...barely discernible as to meaning or what on earth we do with it....but produces in us a "spiritual capacity to hear" which births in us His faith,the faith OF THE SON OF God...for His size of project....and HE HAS A WORLD to WOO and WIN!
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Allen Mills The Word you are talking about is a seed.
Its a seed, a seed has the ability in itself to produce itself, but only when its planted in proper soil, proper season, and with proper moisture, not too much, but not too little.
10 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Soil is interesting.It's both where we find ourselves....a very unseed type environment...its brown and gooey, or yellow and flaky....but either way it's not kie the seed. But the soil is also our innerseedbed....our heart....which also begins very very dark!!!!!
10 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Marmee Janet Great discussion. An invitation to live into what I hear the Word speak in me, even if it seems wild and crazy at the time. Looking away unto Jesus...
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Marmee,that's an encouragement for me to say to everyone.....if your Christianity is predictable, and not as mad as building a boat(what's one of those) tens of years before anyone had ever heard of rain(what's that Noah), if it's not as ma...d as being told that without a man,you're going to have a baby through whom the whole of the world will be saved.....then your Christianity probably isn't God , but a kind of religious LEGO self-build. Only the BODY of CHRIST requires the FAITH of the VERY SON oF GOD to build it. The rest only requires IKEA and Argos!!!See more
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading.Cindi Estep...It's completly different for you to speak the word or the Word to speak through you!!!
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading.... Chris Welch May it ever become less different as we see everything with that single eye.
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading....Nancy Gilmore What I hear you saying is it's one thing to speak a word of faith for yourself, and quite another to speak a word for someone else. The first comment being on the little children, young men stages of Christ's life in us, and the later being fathers of Christ's life AS us. The resistance against us comes with full force as fathers, because it involves others.
3 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Nancy Gilmore bloody sweat!
3 hours ago · LikeUnlike.Chris Welch Cindi is thatwhat you meant>>> or were youmeaning thedifference between theWord of Faith movement which is like Jacob during his faithing in speckled and striped sheep.......and later after he knew who he really was now after the encounter and name changeatPeniel? One is faith as adelusion of two< the other is the single Eye speakingfaith, seeing only One.
2 hours ago · LikeUnlike

Apostolic Protectionism

This Facebook series from yesterday is important enough for public posting. The ministries Michael Reid,Terry Virgo and Peter Stott are mentioned. Not to bring a slur to them, but in my opinion to bring them (perhaps kicking and screaming) into the Body that Christ is building today. You'll have to have seen Toy Story 3 to understand the picture reference.

Chris Welch Compare present apostolic network methods with the first Gentile Christians. It was so open plan, Paul COULD write don't be of Apollos,Paul,Peter or whoever. They each imparted Word, then moved on, and that which really was Word remained, often after a firestorm. They understood there had to be a firestorm.None of this Michael Reid,Terry Virgo,Peter Stott single person protectionism ...cont
17 hours ago ·
Friends only ·LikeUnlike · CommentHendrik Ginting likes this.
Chris Welch as to who gets to minister, apart from in the most heretical cases. The early apostles understood that a true Jesus foundation stands by itself and "protectionism" is often biased anyway,preventing the full Counsel of God from across the Whole Body of Christ. Charismatic conferences try to be as WIDE as possible...but even they are so much like the protected environmental domes of the Cornwall Eden Project.
17 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 person
Loading...Chris Welch It's possible to spend life flitting from one nation's charismatic dome to another, never fully embracing Jesus's Open Plan Kingdom Life.He has no domes.No protective environments, save for the Holy Presence and fear of the Living God. When things got too open plan in Acts, Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead!
17 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 person
Loading...André van der Merwe Love it Chris!
17 hours ago via Facebook Mobile · LikeUnlike · 1 person
Loading...Paul Noble Apostolic networks are another second level concept!
14 hours ago · LikeUnlikePaul Noble The Apostle has is very much a third level guy or gal: a planter, builder, pioneer of a work - guys like Calvin & Luther were probably apostolic along with many in history who never got any credit but pushed the borders of the kingdom a little wider!
14 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch Yes Paul.We are going to look back at this era trying ever so hard to get off the floor from rolling around laughing.It's going to be tough, but in 20-30 years time some will force themselves up on their feet and manage to just about regain composure.cont...
13 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch ‎"What, you mean Terry Virgo had ultimate say for around 40 years on who he related to,who related to him,who related to all the sheep in x gazillion locations.He was the arbiter of the rather finite list of what got taught and what didn't in any of his network churches. It's a wonder that a band as good as Phatfish could have ever emerged there!!"!
13 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch ‎"What you mean Michael Reid got a bit of a gifting in praying for healing,then to make a hit with the Africans(because UK wasn't interested!)he actually designed his own Archbishop's robes and set himself up as head of a new Pentecostal denomination, and set up choirs in matching garb.He then organised conferences for 30 years where he had sole control of who could and couldn't minister.cont...
13 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch And , what! You say Peter Stott for more or less 30 years confined input into the church he formed, to himself and a very limited group of his choosing including,mainly and sadly an apostle who was caught up in adultery. Didn't anyone in ...his congregation think that was strange? Didn't anyone feel that their learning experience was somewhat limited? How many apostles and evangelists emerged from this rather dedicated form of restricted input? None? What? In 30 years? Didn't anyone think this strange?What about that Argentinian fella that had pioneered a couple of churches already before he came to the church? Oh, he was reduced to strumming a guitar for years!"
WwwwHhhhaaaaaaaTtttt? And unable to control themselves everybody is on the floor again.
See more
13 hours ago · LikeUnlike Paul Noble Brilliant Chris you have a gift in irony - Its good to see the funny side but I think we both agree ---- its tragic! Why Why Why! By the way who is the argentinian fella?
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Paul Noble Just been reading about John Calvin - amazing Apostle and really respect what he did in his time BUT he introduced this idea of the Pastor at the top of the pyramid elders underneath him & then deacons below them that so many churches are stuck with.
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch Jose and Elizabeth. Jose has a lot in common with my background.We get on well. Well that's not saying much.The whole world gets on with Jose!
Re Calvin. Well he didn't introduce pyramids,he sort of didn't de-introduce it....in that it came... right through the Catholic infrastructure into Lutheranism....just changing the role of the leader only but keeping the pyramid. At least you didn't "go through" the leader to God anymore...well not as actively as Catholics anyhow.See more
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Paul Noble So whats Jose doing still in Havant?
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch He believes as we all did, that by submitting into an infrastructure he will somehow get his anointing back. When our anointing and grace are caught up in knowing and being in union with Christ, and all those who are "following the Spirit".... In Havant the distinction is so subtle you have to be in a brilliant Key of David meeting to even start to see it,but once you do,you see bondage everywhere. There are soul ties everywhere you look. There's an uncanny yieldedness of the male to an unbroken female spirituality,that at first sight looks mature, but it's one step off witchcraft. Rather than chase darkness down rabbitholes ,Havant just need a good dose of Galations 2:20 ...or to focus on the finished work of Christ...or to wheel in Andre Rabe ,Francois du Toit or Rich Novek or somebody....or perhaps more Paul Noble!!!See more
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Paul Noble Interesting - maybe we should a breakout club? I'm seeing the "Pastor" of our church next week and laying it on the line: they either let me be who God created me to be or I leave.
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch My background is largely female. One of the main 3rdlevel females was Basilea Schlink who continuously led you back to the finished work of Christ. An unbroken spiritual female weaves a kind of coterie that is never transparent.You are somehow never quite good enough, especially if male.its like an impenetrable club,that allows you in just as long as you submit your will.cont...
10 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch A 3rd leveller never needs to spin webs to hold you in or keep you out. There is next to know difference between a 3rdleveller male or female, both are rooted in the transparency of God's Life....they know Him who is from the beginning....and "they are the ones who take the hits that you may know Christ". False manipulators make sure that you are the one taking the hits,,,,and that you should always go through them to get to Christ.
10 hours ago · LikeUnlike Paul Noble What your talking about is that old chess nut the Jezebel spirit? You can see that Elijah even though a very anointed prophet was weak in his identity and jezebel went for the jugular! I believe God is raising up champions in the spirit that don't need to be "in: or "out: of any group but are intimate disciples of Jesus and know him. Look at Paul he just didn't seem to care - thats cos he had caught a glimpse of the risen Christ and lost the fear of man!
8 hours ago · LikeUnlike Brian Mirte Longridge Yes we are called like healthy plants to grow straight up toward the Sun, as we receive the proper nutrients of Gods lavish, unconditional love, He secures us in our identity and therefore we have no need to unhealthily bend to receive our core identity from others unconciously trying to get them to tell us who we are,do we measure up etc.....
7 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch Good comments.How clear a picture Brian.I think Paul your time with Andy will be like a session I had with a couple who stay with us,and like a piece of NT scripture.Have you never wondered why Paul had to "write that bit of foolishness",is it Corinthians....where he lays out his apostleship credentials...twice shipwrecked...wild animals etc..
2 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch You'd think with hindsight ..how obvious...or worse with a carnal mindset ...there he goes blowing his own trumpet. But no,one of the adjustments we all have to make in Body Life is to help each other where we have too low an opinion of ourselves,but the converse is try to disabuse those that will listen of their overly high opinion.
2 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch This is what the Bible means of raising up the low places and bringing down the mountains.They are both "false seeing", "false images scrawled in Ezekiel 10:8 style on our inner walls" and when we confront either they have the weight of Satan behind them.Just like teenage,Christian teenage or the "young men"stage is equally weird.Like the disciples,get a little power in your finger tips and these charismatic "wunderkinds" think they know everything as do teenagers. So, like Jesus, one minute we are praising them up to the eyeballs,the next we're opposing some high and mighty lofty spirit as it was with Peter. · LikeUnlike Chris Welch The sad thing is if the criticism "doesn't take".Staggeringly after all these key encounters in the gospels, the disciples never got terminally offended,but stuck with Jesus to the very end. In my experience sometimes,especially now that th...ere are three clear levels in church today...if people don't want to hear 3rd level stuff and grow there is a perfectly good Endlevel environment for them to go off and nurse their "bruised denial" and be endlessly sustained in their false notions.And this is what happened with the people I confronted.They have not stayed with us since.And,interestingly enough..they were really generous every previous time...but obviously judged me in the flesh because this last time nothing was returned.You have to understand that when we give hospitality we do not expect any return....it is just that it was done in this way...which makes it seem as if it was "conditional payment".See more
2 hours ago · LikeUnlike Chris Welch Endlevel is a Blackberry typo for 2ndlevel.

A Recent History of Psalm 24: Part 2 Havant Conference 2008

Some time ago I imagined this light-hearted image:
Pearl Schwarz and Andy Buzznik both prepared themselves for the evening report. One of the spinoffs from the Hadron Collider was that at a tremendous cost Time Travel was now possible. As nations clubbed together the billions needed for the rare excursion they could afford, it had fallen on the luck of Nightly CVS News Anchors Pearl and Andy to return to a significant date in history, record the event then return. There was only one date imaginable and unanimously chosen by poll: the day of Jesus Resurrection. So Pearl and Andy stood a few meters from the Garden Tomb.
"Well this seems to be about it. Any moment Jesus is going to appear and according to the testimony of many bystanders over the following days be seen alive after 3 days in this tomb."
"I know , Pearl....this so exciting."
"Only we want to do it right."
"That's right Pearl."
"I mean Jesus c'mon! If this is all true we want a proper evaluation of the event. It was a really cool stunt you pulled off there, but your marketing of the event was lousy. So let's hope we can pull this off. Anything's better than the job Jesus did. Being able to return to this event helps us in our day, but we can bring our whole expertise to this day too."
Someone shouted , "Cameras ready to roll....any time now..."
Andy asked "Pearl. Was that your creative festooning around the mouth of the tomb there? The one with the letters "Welcome back Son of God" "Sure was Andy. Back in New York we'd have had more of a team of creatives, but I thought we could at least manage that."
" It's early still, the stone appears rolled to one side, you reckon we've got enough extra lighting pointing at the tomb when the two Mary's go inside?"
"We've got enough lighting to light a Broadway stage Andy...it'll be fine." "How about the music?" "We're getting a special orchestral number done by John Williams when we get back and we'll put it as a backing track. It's going to be a spectacular. A sellout smash in every TV station on Earth...can you imagine?" " That's great Pearl...let's just hope we can pull this off...it's just too expensive to ever be able to afford a second take..." " Anything will be an improvement on being mistaken for a gardner Andy. We know what we're doing....OK let's take our positions...." END AC Welch
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Has anyone ever wondered why such a key event as the resurrection, marked by prophecies hundreds of years before, was such a low key affair?
Any atheist who spouts forth his usual dung about God needing to be praised because of a fragile ego...needs to be sat in a chair and forced to reflect on this whole event.
If God was humanly constructed, a lot more of the resurrection day would have been around the supernature of this superman Jesus, heralded and acclaimed. There would be no question of being mistaken for a gardner. I mean there's low key.....and there's God. In the Spirit the whole Cross Weekend determines the legal right for all humans to reenter God's Presence, but as a natural event it played out "outside a city wall", in much the same tone that Jesus first arrived...in a stable at the back of a hotel with no vacancies. Completely off the radar of most in their daily lives.

Why would these things be so?
Jesus was resurrected on the day that a wave offering of a sheaf of corn was waved before the Altar in the Temple. He was that first sheaf at Passover. But that was all it was. One sheaf.

The resurrection of Jesus, even followed by his ascension watched by a relatively small group of people, was low key. These events were not about Jesus. These events were for us. Jesus never sinned. Not one of these events was for His benefit. They were for ours. These events, so heralded...naturally enough...by every main denomination.... were not the goal. As the Jewish Feast calendar shows...
Passover is just the entry point. The initial point de depart of the real thing Jesus was always after. Oh, you mean the coming of the Spirit at Acts 2?
No, I don't mean the coming of the Spirit at Acts 2. That was Pentecost, the second Feast.
No, I mean the Feast of Tabernacles was what the whole thing was ALWAYS ABOUT.
God, tabernacling full-time among His people.
Having a generation who knew how to live in Jesus in the same way that Jesus lived IN THE FATHER.
Having a people that know how to ascend the hill of the Lord. Who know how to open the Gates that the King of Glory Come In.....THOSE Ancient doors.....locked since the beginning of man's days on the Earth....

and to show forth to Principalities and Powers the exceeding great glory now made manifest in the Church
Here and Now
On Earth. Because "I am He that changeth not" . God is and He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. He is an ....Is-er, He always was an Is-er....and that was why He got so annoyed with Martha....
What do you mean the last day Martha...I am the resurrection and the Life...let's do it now. Let's raise your brother Lazarus.

So this is why in 2008 Peter's message on Psalm 24 brought a whole new light. It turned the tables on Ern Baxter's message which was about Jesus, the firstborn among many brethren...... From now on Psalm 24 was going to be about US


2008 Peter Stott - Havant Glory Conference Message- transcribed here introduced the theme that we, the brethren of Jesus, are now opening those gates of Glory here on Earth. The prayer of Jesus was after all "Thy Kingdom Come". Ern's message before and after Kansas City was always that Jesus has ascended on high and the Father told Him to sit at the righthand of the Father and reign UNTIL all His enemies are made His footstool.....and he's not coming back UNTIL....


The Gates of hell shall NOT prevail against the Church. In a small way, we saw this in the Gates of Communism NOT prevailing against the prayers, particularly of the Polish saints in the 80s. The whole wall came down around them.

Perhaps this whole blog should rather be called Psalm 24 WATCH

because
then we saw

Helen Rubio and The Russian Dolls

Those following this blog will already have tucked inside them some key references Helen made here at the same 2008 Conference

Firstly," I felt that God showed me there was a correlation between this (praise) journey and our own spiritual being. And what I saw is that right in the middle there we have the spirit. Then here we have the soul, the will and emotions.And outside you have got the physical body. So the body is kind of like the first heaven where we dwell in our physical reality…The emotion or soulish area relates to the area of spiritual warfare. Then the spiritual area of me is where God dwells. But it is not an outside place. It’s an inside place."

and secondly "You know God’s way of doing spiritual warfare is radically different to the way we think spiritual warfare is done. I have been in so many meetings where there is lots of shouting…and I’m not saying there isn’t a place for that…but in those days that was all our understanding of spiritual warfare was. I want to read you what I believe is God’s definition of spiritual warfare...John 14:9 .."I am in the Father and the Father is in me.....(and following)





Then last Monday two things happened


I received more clarity on the importance of the mind in relation to Psalm 24,and simultaneously Daniel Yordy posted a post on Psalm 24.


I posted this on facebook with reference to Psalm 24


Jorge Pradas and Ed Miller taught us that every time the saints meet there is a key or keys, find the keys and its like Chronicles the glory of God comes down. Things have moved on 30 years,everyone's grown a bit, so the Key of David meetings(Havant) are consistently like this in increasing measure.A few weeks ago I understood this key in terms of Genesis 1 and Psalm 24.That in God we are speaking into different parts of the void each meeting and saying" Let there be Light and Let some more Kingdom Come.Let the King of Glory Come in"

Even before Acts 2, Jesus and the disciples invaded towns with the Presence of God declaring "Let the Kingdom of God come among you." Well for 40 years we've done meetings like this but now we are to do life like this.

Every day has a key. Christ's Life in us knows that key. Because we used to believe there were 3 existences,my life,a separate Christ life and the sin life we have wasted years, dissipating Christs life in us....so keys in the Romans 8 safe tumbler lock never fell, so here we are still with a world not too different from when the Spirit was outpoured. But the time of ignorance is passing.When we live believing we are Christ in our form,we don't have to go searching for demons....situations hunt us out.Often we're in incredible weakness.Not life how we'd choose...but if we don't take that way out...that self medicating way and( instead )see things through and watch what Christ is doing....we see doors open ...from nowhere. The tumblers in the lock have turned!

The 2nd Seal and Conscience - Peter Stott 6th June 2010

Continuation from Mark Stibbe's Prophetic Talk given at last year's RiverCamp2009 on the second seal.
------------------------------

2Timothy2:19

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm,

sealed with this inscription:

"The Lord knows those who are His," and,

"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

My notes in blue: The main gist so far in the worldwide Spirit-filled community is that we have been getting to know the Lord in a new,living, real way and now we move onto the 2nd seal which is a call to holiness. Both Peter and Mark Stibbe approach this subject with much fear and trembling, because of their own "legal" pasts. Holiness, true holiness , they are aware, is not the stultifying obedience to a set of rules and commandments, going back again to lawbook-living.



Before we go to Peter's message on conscience, can I point out that from a 3rdlevel point of view, the order of these two seals above are very key.



It's not us knowing the Lord. It is Him KNOWING(sexual union word) us. So you can forget the second seal until you have first laid a foundation as follows:



that the former 0wner /occupier , Satan, since Genesis 3:5 , has now been driven out. The Lord knowing us is a very deep phrase which describes the experiential process, the conscious process of LEARNING HIM as Our New INDWELLER. That we only ever were, and continue to be, spirit containers; before we were born again, containers for the Satan spirit,since we were born again, containers of Jesus.



As Christians, because of ignorance and our own limited understanding of scriptures,and also because just about all the main Christian teachers in the worldwide Body of Christ still teach "separation": Christ and a separate me, who is trying ,through godly pursuits, to better him/herself, we are unable it seems to read Romans, Colossians,Ephesians etc the way they were originally understood.



How do I know that? Well, as in tuning pianos, thankfully there is an inbuilt natural check and balance system. How do I know when first a note made up of three identical strings, then second the entire first octave of a piano are exactly in tune? Well, simple really (and this is a bit of an oversimplification you techie purists), there are NO BEATS. When there is dischord, the differences show up as unpleasant extra vibrations called beats. (Techie moment:If A440 beats per second is played against A441...you only hear the straggly one beat per second difference wowing between the 2 strings)



In the Body...you know when the teaching is right

People live free....yup...amazingly enough...that's OUTSIDE of meetings

secondly "these signs follow after those that believe."



So you can tell a 2nd level community of believers who are still "stuck " in the independent delusion:

1. All sorts of sin is still going on behind the scenes which creates peculiar B.O. when the saints gather together in meetings


2. There are only spasmodic signs following in a random hit or miss kind of way....usually after only gazillions of prayer or bursts of spiritual concentration...as Rob Rufus describes the early 80s for him.

Where "separation" is still implied in the teaching, you are not dismantling the false consciousness that was sown back in Genesis by the devil, whose genius was to come up with something sooooooo like the real thing, that even squinting very closely at our history, at all mankind's mistakes, we still were only ever putting on the devil's own specs....."If the (very)light that is within you is darkness....HOW GREAT is that darkness."

and it has taken all these millennia to trap what is going on, and continue what Jesus came for, to lay the axe to the root.
___________________________

Peter Stott : "The Second Seal and Conscience" from notes - ACWelch. June 6th Havant Main Sunday meeting.

The call to holiness is a call to come alive again. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. The component parts to our makeup have been seriously clogged up and damaged by sin, and the shame of sin.

Here are a list of some of our abilities and gifts that really only come into their own again when we have received Jesus into our lives, and we are walking closely with Him.

Memory - a powerful tool for recalling the ways God has blessed us and come through for us in the past.

Imagination and creativity - our drive to experiment with the new in every area of our life knows literally no bounds

Will - a curse when wayward, but a powerful driving force in God

Conscience - this is the subject of this talk.
Sin damages.Clogs up.Wrecks our self-image.Causes shame. Both when it's our fault and when it isn't. (The Bulger murder case didn't just affect those concerned, it brought a measure of shame to our nation. "Righteousness exalts a nation.")

Sin is unattractive in people. It dulls. Righteousness has an attractive radiance about it. A liveliness. A clean conscience gives strength, forcefulness, authority.

Innocence Lost - by Steve Taylor from 1987 Album ironically titled "I Predict 1990". The end makes me want to cry.

Ever hear the sound of a death row chorus?
ever see the look of a wolfman prowling the steps?
in this deep freeze bunker they store us
send away the priest, 'cause they're ain't nothing more to confess

She had the innocent eyes of a Renoir lady
clutched her black book like an angel nursing a child
"It's a quarter to midnight here, baby
if you're gonna stare, do it while I'm sleeping"

But her eyes, they shone of an innocent way...
in her eyes, we glimpsed of an innocent way...
and in the days that followed we were under a spell
why's the girl visiting a prison cell?

Innocence, innocence,
innocence lost
all souls want it back
some uncover the cost
innocence, innocence lost
break free, look at me
is your innocence lost?

He'd seen things that a man don't mention
sunk into his eyes was a weariness nothing could heal
"Don't tell me 'bout your cheap salvation
what's a man do when he don't feel nothing?"

But her eyes, they shone of an innocent way...

She said, "Beyond these bars there are things you can't see"
He spoke slowly
"Ain't no pardon for me"

Innocence, innocence,
innocence lost
all souls want it back
some uncover the cost
innocence, innocence lost
she said, "Look at me,
don't you, don't you lose your innocence
don't lose your innocence"
he said, "God's own angels couldn't give me hope
when you leave me hanging, just leave me enough rope"

But her eyes he glimpsed of an innocent way...

And on the eve of destruction they were shining the chair
outside vigils, inside men were sobbing
as she kissed his forehead when the morning had dawned
he said softly to her, "I'll see you beyond"

Peter continues:

The Apostle Paul in Acts 24:16 "I strive to have a pure conscience before God and men"

Conscience is your friend. It is a fabulous tool when healthy, because it discerns good from evil. It tells you ahead of time to get the heck out of there, before you get enmeshed.

So a healthy conscience is Pro-active not Retroactive as it has come to mean in a sinful world.

It says AHEAD of time....Keep away. It is like a sensitised sense of spiritual smell.

Conscience can be corrupted. It says in Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

The Holy Spirit can tell us to stop doing things for a while in order that we get freed up from any false soul/spirit attachments. If we are not careful, these temporary arrangements enter into the lore of our Christian movement, as a dead work, shaping our consciences falsely . In the 30s Pentecostal women felt it was a leading NOT to be attached to makeup. This then entered the lore of the movement, as if it was a permanent law of righteousness.

1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
If our consciences have been so badly calloused, we are unable to correctly assess things. We begin calling bad things good.

We can have a weakened conscience. A strong conscience is one that is connected to our will. Otherwise we assent intellectually to something, but as soon as we are strongly enticed, all our notions go to the wind.

Shame is the dregs of what remains after sin.

Paul says in Timothy " I thank God I serve Him from a pure conscience

2Tim 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.


I Timothy 1:5 "The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." How much expression of love is needlessly forfeited through bad conscience clogging us up?

Third-level teaching is so good at getting to the heart of things enabling a truly clear conscience.

If you understand that all you are is a container, and that sin was ousted completely at the cross, and the New-Indweller who is Christ has now come in, you at last have a foundation that is Word and Spirit to combat

shame, inferiority feelings, self-loathing, general yukky feelings...

We have a foundation now to speak to the devil with.

I decide to believe what the Word says about me, until the feelings and thoughts tag along and fall into line with my new believing.

After a while we get better at recognising what is genuinely our conscience, and what are just bad feelings that are still according to the lies I believed about myself.

Peter continues: our baptism into Christ expressed in water baptism, cleanses our conscience.

This could never happen before in the Old Testament system of sacrifices of bulls and goats. But Jesus did a complete thing for us - see the next post The Two Deliverances at the Cross chapter 4 - Treasures of Darkness by Sylvia Pearce.

Peter Stott: How to Keep a good conscience

By the Blood, The Word, and the Spirit.

-By keeping short accounts and going to sleep with a clear conscience.

-By soaking, or exposing ourselves to good stuff. Just generally taking care of what we are feeding on.

A clear conscience is a joyful thing, and joy brings strength with it.

By lining up our conscience with the Word and the Spirit. "Thy Word is a light unto my feet"

The Result.....

A confidence without boasting. It's not a self-confidence in our own works...but a clear conscience in regard to our dealings with God and man.

And learning to use that inbuilt umpire of peace that we received when we were born again. Let the Peace of God rule or umpire in your heart.

To live among a people that just simply acknowledge their sin before the Living God and His Presence, that take His righteousness offered as a free gift, and then, living unclogged, free to love others, to rightly relate....to lose these heavy clouds of depression and cynicism, to do away the dependance on stimulants, anti depressants, because innocence has returned, a lightness of spirit, joy strength and confidence....instead of having to live in our current rather numb Western culture. End of talk

How do we grow in a safe Church environment without the bustups and the Rifts?

If you think this is a safe post with a fairly predictable series of guidelines which are anyway taught in seminary, so you don't have to pay too much attention.......

Sorry. I do not have the answer. The question in the heading is a serious question which to date does not have an answer, but Jesus knew how to do it, and I guess He still knows how to do it. When He got His new physical body, I don't think He lost what He had learned to do on Earth. But to date, there is little proof, as we look at history. Maybe we are just not connected to Him enough.

I am speaking of two aspects of unity, or the lack of it.
I.Our character,gifting,personality and ministry differences.

1Cor12:14-26 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
Originally this set of scriptures was presented to us in a meeting context. That each person had a role to play. that we had to be completely open to the radically different ways of operating of the other members personalities, anointings, and giftings. Peter Stott said he tries to be sensitive to patterns of operation of other members in the Body in order not to stifle them. This is particularly important in open-ended meetings such as Key of David pattern meetings where literally anyone can have the anointing for leading at different times.

But ofcourse these scriptures go way beyond meetings. They describe the very real shunning of one another that is done on a weekly basis by evangelicals and charismatics.Female led settings against male led settings. By denominational mainstream versus denominational non-Conformist. By denominational and independent churches. By foreign national churches in the cities and their English counterparts. In one grievous nutshell: The Body of Christ is a Mess.

But quite apart from these frictions, this post is about the subject of this blog , the frictions caused by the stages of growth.
II. Differences and The Four Stages of Growth outlined by M.Scott Peck and Dave Tomlinson.
In speaking of four stages of psychological growth, the last three intertwine with the spiritual counterparts described in this blog. First the natural, then the spiritual. They are not the same at all, but they are not totally different either. Yup, that's the mystery of living as psycho spiritual beings on planet Earth who have asked Jesus into their life.
Before we get into Dave's passage from Chapter 4 of The Post evangelical published by Triangle, here is an Old Testament picture.
If we think of our life as a sacrifice to God as in Romans 12 and compare that with the different sacrifices in the Old Testament, there is a side of our lives that is an oil offering. It is an offering
more directly related to the sanctuary, to anointing, to the Holy Spirit, to worship. But one of the other offerings is a grain offering. It's drier. It speaks of the roughage of our daily lives, ground down and refined and poured out before God. A huge amount of the "electric charge buildup" and any authority for meetings comes out of the rather dry repetitive process of holding down a job tuning pianos. Sometimes I say to Peter that I'm going back to work to recharge. Something about this natural world in which we live and move is exactly right for working authority in the insides of our being. Something like the Proverb...the diligent shall rule.

As we progress to the 3rd level, sort of akin to the fourth mentioned here, we can become intensely frustrated with the plastic rather manipulated feel of the charismatic scene. You become aware that many ministries, if they are any good, glide from Conference to Conference, but their lives can be impoverished because they never live much in this 3D natural world that God created for us to grow in. To work in. To touch,feel,taste. To raise kids in. To have fun in. To share together in. The thought that you can experience Jesus as you in your form continually, as you grow in sensitivity kind of boggles them. Because they think they have to pray 3 hours. Or attend so many conferences. Or...or... a thousand and one harrassing laws the devil gets them under pressure to do.
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Stages of Personal Growth - section of Chapter 4 from The Post Evangelical by Dave Tomlinson
It is now well understood that people pass through different stages in their personal development, and these stages have been analysed in different ways.1 I have chosen a fairly straightforward example which seems to have a lot of common-sense behind it: that of Scott Peck's four stages of spiritual growth, discussed in his book The Different Drum.2
In his psychotherapy practice Peck noticed an interesting phenomenon: that religious people who came to him in pain and trouble frequently left the therapeutic process as atheists, agnostics or at least sceptics. On the other hand, atheists, agnostics and sceptics often left therapy as deeply religious people. Same therapy, same therapist, and each of the cases successful in their own terms, and yet with utterly different outcomes from a religious perspective. After puzzling over this for some time, he concluded that the different reactions were connected to the different stages of personal development in each
patient undergoing therapy. He also concluded that these stages of personal development, which are common to us all, form an identifiable pattern of progress throughout our lives. It follows from this that just as it is a positive thing for some patients to adopt religious faith, so it is equally positive for others to reject it. Why? Because their faith is more an expression of conformity than a fully independent choice. Hopefully they will rediscover their faith at a later point, but this time as a more enlightened decision. Not that the earlier experience would be invalid; it would have been a genuine expression of what the person felt at the time.
Like any model Peck's is an over-simplification, and most people fit somewhere between the stages. I have changed some of his wording slightly, since I find his rather ambiguous:
STAGE I: Self-obsessed STAGE II: Conformist STAGE III: Individualist STAGE IV: Integrated
Stage I is the normal state of most children, though Peck reckons that around 20 per cent of all adults are also still at this stage. When the shift from Stage I to Stage II occurs in adult life, it often appears sudden and dramatic. It might well be linked to a religious conversion, but it could equally happen through another experience which creates a sudden shift of attitude, like getting married or having a child, or through a close encounter with death, or deciding to resolve a drink problem by joining Alcoholics Anonymous, or whatever. Many dramatic conversions to Christianity take place in people who need a shift from Stage I to Stage 11. Others of us who, for example, are already in Stage II before becoming Christians, will probably have a much less dramatic experience – and consequently feel inferior, because we interpret the drama of another person's experience as a sign of greater divine power at work in them.
Peck maintains that most believers and churchgoers are in Stage II of their development, which he calls 'formal', since they become attached to the forms (as opposed to the essence) of their religion. They will vigorously oppose any attacks on, or attempts to change, its canons, liturgies or traditions, which they
We all regress through earlier stages of our development in certain situations.
The model is not pejorative. It describes stages we all pass through and, to some extent, continue to pass through. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' about being in a particular stage.
0 People become Christians at each of the levels and this inevitably has a bearing on the kind of conversion they experience, as well as on the perspective they have on the Christian life and faith in general.
Peck comments that Stage IV men and women will frequently enter religion through an attraction to mystery, whereas Stage II people enter religion to find concrete answers. When we discussed Peck's model at Holy Joe's, one man was brave enough to admit that he wanted a more conformist experience of Christianity and that he struggled when faced with too much uncertainty and ambiguity. Thankfully, the group resisted any temptation to argue him into a different position, and simply reassured him that his feelings were perfectly valid.
I think, in a very approximate way, a lot of post-evangelicals are people who are moving from Stage 11 to Stage III. This does not make them any more intelligent or clever than those who remain contentedly in Stage II, and their next steps can be varied, as our two opening stories show. Incidentally, some people who appear to be post-evangelical are actually regressing to Stage I and, not to put too fine a point on it, might be better described as pre-evangelical.
The more important question is why so many folk who progress to Stage III or IV feel the need to move
on from evangelicalism to some other expression of the church, or to abandon formal churchgoing altogether. It seems as though the sociological (to say nothing of the theological and spiritual) environment of evangelicalism does not accommodate people at these stages as effectively and easily as it does those at Stage 11. Perhaps this is because of the definitiveness of evangelical faith, with respect to both its theology and morality. An environment which can comfortably accommodate Stage III people, for example, has to be much freer with its definitions and expectations, and to the average evangelical that smacks of liberalism!
There is another point, however, which Peck does not explore, but which undoubtedly complicates this process even more. It is the way in which people who are otherwise in Stage III or IV seem to regress to Stage II when it comes to the religious part of their lives. Peck's model, which concentrates on a straightforward progression through the stages, is not geared to deal with this phenomenon, so for this we shall now turn to a different model which specifically deals with the way that we switch from one pattern of behaviour to another, depending on the situation.
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Dave then shares findings from "Games People Play", a very influential book in the 70s by Eric Berne. It describes different types of personalities we adopt, and roles we adopt in different circumstances.
So why is this all important?
The second level of Christianity is when we take on board what Christ has done for us at the Cross. We begin to reckon ourselves dead. What then begins happening to us can so shock us, that many leave the church. Truly it can be like the sound of thousands of dead rattling bones. Our own ones, and those around us, who we thought were very much alive just now!!!! What happened. It is also when Church kids, or kids of pastors, solidly raised from a young age on born again church life...appear to freak out. Appear not to be interested any more. Whatever ,whatever. It can be hugely alarming.

One main Derby pastor suddenly found his daughter with illegitimate child, and seriously went to hand in his notice as a complete failure.
III. The evangelism Tension
This is a subsection of the second point above. It is such a thorny subject. It divides Pentecostal churches from charismatic independent churches. It divides Grace Churches from longer established Spirit-filled Churches.

On Facebook I have been sharing from Song of Solomon. Here is the conversation:
Chris Welch:Song of Solomon 5:2-6. The delay in going out to "them". See Jamie's blog post.
Chris Welch:The love relationship never changes,but its form does.I suppose I am being bold to declare that the time of the charismatic movement worldwide is now over.It is now time for the Third Level in all the Earth.Where we learn to walk Him as me in my form upon the mountains and in the suffering places, the places of myrrh.Nothing forced Norman Grubb to start learning this level faster than a spell out in the Congo. He then spent the next 65 years defining how it works precisely for this coming generation. It was always there in scripture but somehow apart from a brave handful absolutely no one seems to know about it, less still,articulate it for others.
Paul Noble I think the charismatic movement has been over for at least 10 yrs! Trouble is, people of the generation that grew up in that revival are finding it hard to transition and leave the old behind ( especially leaders). Thats how I got into trouble at LCC when I shared a vision of the church that God was building in Gosport. People just stone the ... See moreprophet because God isn't building church their way. What I have found in family church is interesting because its not particulary "charismatic" but it is reaching the lost ( 65 people saved in a month) and touching the young effectively.

Chris Welch Family church is interesting, like a lot of numerically growing churches. I like that Andy Elmes spent some time getting zapped out with Vaughan Jarrold in New York State in His Early Days. Traditionally evangelistic churches haven't been good at growing people. I felt God put it on my heart that He wants to change that in these days. Although it will be a true miracle. Jesus moved simultaneously with the the three levels of children young men and fathers in His ministry. This is where John got it from (1John2)This is in the Spirit not age.
And in recent years the three stages keep themselves to themselves. They don't mix very well.But as it becomes more normal to have a 3 level church again, I believe that is the challenge God is giving us.People like Ed Miller have had to stay in the backrooms up until now, because the people in the first two levels cannot take them. This happened to Jesus halfway through His ministry, when He started explaining about fusion..."You must eat my body and drink my blood" and nearly everyone cleared off.
Chris Welch Immature people don't like fusion. They like God at arm's length.This way if they sin, they can still say they are poor miserable sinners and what else can you expect? So the challenge of Song of Solomon 5 is that here is a prepared people, that know Christ is their life, but rather like sticking around in worship and praise, and is it really necessary to go out among all those nasty people?
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By now I am sure you are starting to understand what is behind the heading of this post.
And this is the background. I visited another small church the other Sunday with Ben and Christine which is being led by a friend of ours from Emsworth days. For a greeting I felt Jesus put this challenge on my heart for them while we were all worshipping.

That they find a pattern/patterns of ministry that would simultaneously meet the three level need of believers. Because right now, most evangelistic churches leading huge numbers of students/young marrieds and singles/and youth to Jesus, don't even know of the existence of the third level of growth. Unless you actually meet one of the worthies that appear in many of the bookstores, you simply have no idea of their existence.
One shattering meeting with Richard Wurmbrand or Mother Basilea or to a certain extent Mother Teresa completely put paid to that. Especially if you are a poet/musician type who tends to see below the surface of everything that is uttered.
After that, everyone you hear in a normal UK church is like a little Black and White TV set, which didn't matter before...

BUT NOW you've just seen HD 3D Colour Flatscreen Sony TV....and well...what are you to do?
But a lot of the grace church people will never have met a 3rd leveller. So to them, evangelism is just about going out, getting a druggie to stop doing drugs
prostitutes to stop selling themselves
crooks to stop thieving or getting into prison and for all these to get zapped into the Kingdom, both saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. And you know what, that is God's plan! And He never wants people to lose that stuff, and resort to being people that the apostle Paul would write to and say "Who has bewitched you foolish Galations....having begun so well in the Spirit do you now put your trust in the flesh!"
And I really hope Andy Elmes, who was radically saved in Bognor Regis Bible Week in the 80s near here,left for a spell in New York and sought God intently for his life, and genuinely came back empowered for ministry....I never want him to lose that....

But I want everyone to realise that Jesus life is even more real than that....
so real, that by the third level you can practically reproduce Jesus Life in someone else by them just being in your presence for an hour or two. This happened to Norman Grubb with Jessie Penn Lewis. This happened to Rheinhardt Bonnke with George Jeffries the Pentecostal pioneer.
This happened to thousands that had anything to do with Madame Guyon, Fenelon and Brother Lawrence in the 1600s.

But at the moment THERE IS NO RECOGNITION of the different levels in the Body. Only friction. The above passage helps to explain some of the problem psychologically. But spiritually, the other problem is this. The closer we fuse with Jesus, the more our light begins to show up darkness that others may or may not want touched. Ed Miller describes the process as suddenly turning on the light for people. And like lifting up a stone, you are suddenly aware of the horrible creatures scurrying about that you had no idea were there. And for some, the shock is too great, and they prefer to switch the light off and remain in denial.

So what is the answer?Somehow Jesus ministered simultaneously to
THE UNSAVED and UNBELIEVING
THE SOON TO BELIEVE
THE QUITE COMMITTED 120 or so and
THE SOLD OUT 12 disciples.
Yup simultaneously! We learn one trick. He used parables...and for those who really wanted to know, He filled them in later. But at least they were all in the same place.
We have division after division, belief system after belief system,
and seminaries, that far from being the answer, just train people intellectually
to fully arm them in their ability to utterly alienate other believers.
At least Morris Cerullo tries his best to empower people in the Spirit in a few days.
Seminaries spend three full years destroying any Holy Spirit relationship believers ever had.
Morris needs to wake up to what God is doing, and to the stages of growth.
Seminaries just need to wake up full stop.
But a total answer to this post, I am afraid I do not have. But by at least airing the question, may be we can open ourselves to God for Him to bring the answers.