The Kingdom Has 12 Gates

21st Dec Facebook
Tonight I have in my email an invitation to some World pentecostal Fire event, including some invitation to join leaders in Europe. You would think....Fire. You would think something that will boost the gospel and the Word of God going abroad. Also a chance to "become more effective" by being with other "proven leaders".
Here's my response.................

God anointed me with Fire in 1972 which i took into school at 13.
Within 2 short years the school revival was nothing but about 15 remaining faithful embers.
The devil faced pentecostal fire and found it laughably easy to shut us down. Looking back he did it through Freemasonry. Something I knew nothing about. He did it through Anglicans.
It was easy.
Now since then I have been in smaller moves. I also know Paul wrote that it is needful that every work of God be tested, and that wolves will come and quickly attempt to rip everything to shreds.
We read something similar in Revelation12.
But this, and also meeting thirdlevellers (1 John 2) people drew me up short.
I spent a decade with people who are now at the level that IHOP is. We literally sought God. That is what we did. it DOES put a foundation in you....but without the clear foundation that Norman Grubb explains in Yes I am, with a greater clarity than Mother Basilea Schlink, pastor Wurmbrand or even Ed Miller....many of those who were with me....where are they now 30 years later? Many are dead. Many are blown out by life's crisises.
So join some world Conference? Why would i waste my time?
Listen.
If you are not going to read the Word, why would i waste time with you?
It specifically describes 2 similar events in the gospels.
2 Fishing trips.
They returned with nothing and both times Jesus directed them where to fish. Both bumper harvests.
The first time they were not co ordinated, and their nets broke.
Much of the haul was lost.
The second time they were co ordinated, and like they experienced a few days later fishing for people in Acts 2....the nets didn't break and they were moving as one.
Ah? say the pentecostals. There's the trick. We move as one. let's have a conference!!!
No you mistake it all.
The disciples weren't one because of a conference. They were one after entering willingly into the WAY 3 and half years earlier. The WAY led them to the truth.....They were useless.
But here God could meet them and break open the LIFE like wells from within.
I hate pentecostalism. I hate any form of Christianity which doesn't build on the Rock of Jesus, the Rock of overturning Genesis 3 and the entire delusion.
Why would i want anything to do with your hyped up seminars? Your machinery which replaces the genuine Life of God? The attempts to fill in your evident lack of the knowledge of God's ways by plugging the gap with faith, and miracles, and all sorts of things which are secondary to your own great rebellion.
The LOG in all your eyes.
You want YOU.
In everything you do it's all about YOU.
You are orphans still and you abide alone because you have never obeyed the call to fall into the ground and really die.
And what does it say about such? It says they abide alone.
So the only thing left is to plug the evident lacks with more rubbing the Aladdin's lamp. More prayer. More all nights. More conferences. More streetpreaching.....more just desperation instead of finally coming home to your God.
So no. I haven't the slightest interest in your conferences. I want to be in events like Evan Roberts flat on his face while a nation awakens all round him. I want the strong version of where we left off in Lakeland 2008. The genuine Melchizedek Order experienced in full force among a eunuch leadership.
Please I am not anti miracles. Just try and stop them when God is around. He doesn't even know He's doing them...because He keeps forgetting the laws that He originally designed here.
But anything that happens isn't then coming from a forced orphan desperation that feel there have to be miracles to show God is there. God is everywhere there. The problem is you have Darkness and you don't want Him to be everywhere there. In the end Todd Bentley did what I did years ago, and chose a woman instead. He was the bold one who initiated the Move.....generally God prefers a group of bold ones. Todd seemed almost surprised that the whole thing fell apart. Well....like the new Cart episode with King David.....God never asked to be brought in on a cart.
Bless David for His zeal. Bless David for his boldness. But sometimes boldness without the blueprint is just stupid.
Pentecostalism isn't the blueprint. It owns about two or three Gates of Jerusalem. The Fountain Gate, the Water Gate and maybe these days quite a bit of the Horse Gate.
We aren't building Pentecostalism. We are building the Kingdom.
The Kingdom has 12 Gates.
That's the blueprint.
If you don't know them, that's your problem. You should have learned them.
So no....I have no interest in your type of Conferences.

On GATES......
The thing God has been doing by the Spirit and as announced by Arthur Wallis in the early Fountain Trust meeting.....has been a literal raising up of all the Gates that have been smashed to pieces. That our generation and the ones before were literal Nehemiahs in the Spirit seems to have bypassed.us all.....but yet it has been true without us even realising. See while Terry Virgo and Salt and Light have been building their pyramids and 12 step programmes and reformed theology courses.....and while Pentecostals have been running around like headless.chickens......what God has actually been doing is layer the teachings of Romans Ephesians Colossians and Hebrews again in quiet but unfathomable power. Nothing can beat the power of these doctrines.seizing people's.hearts.....even baptism in Spirit which is wonderful cannot plug the centuries of.neglect and symbolic understanding and lack of revelation around what Paul.was sharing with the early apostles concerning the ground zero brokenness that they and King David had all come into. If people do.a.walk in the Spirit around these Gates then they become complete in Christ and not just some Barnum figure selling his Holy Spirit potions of the back of a market wagon.

The meaning of St Paul's "When I am with you in spirit"

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.)1 Corinthians 5.4 I'm not really focussing on the context....and anyway it worked so well, in the next letter,Paul had to write the opposite....Go easy, the guy's turned round. No it's the first phrase that has gripped me for several years. You see every church aims to assemble in the name of the Lord, but denominations and evangelicals stop there, and charismatics stop at the power bit. But as Evan Roberts found there was another bit too. "until I am with you in spirit" Well spiritists would just say...well it's obvious just have a seance and get Paul's spirit. Well Paul hadn't died, so it wasn't that. Paul had the spiritual gift of laying an apostolic foundation. But is that all it is? I don't think so. David Swan writes in Holy of Holies "The charismatic move is a mixed place." The Spirit is there but the majority of people haven't a clue who they are yet. People who have the Kingdom of God written in them properly by the Spirit bring another order to a meeting. Evan Roberts of the Welsh revival used to lead with his face to the floor. The more leaders and worship leaders familiarise themselves with the actual New Covenant written in them so they become living letters, the more they will be able to say like Paul....when you gather in Jesus Name and that spirit that I brought among you....then do this...or that.... This is also the meaning behind Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Asking in My Name has an individual setting and a corporate setting. Churches should take more and more care about whose Name they are gathering in in order to have their prayers answered. It is a specific Order in the Spirit. It is literally entering the NOW order of a living God, the Melchizedek order of the New priesthood,corporately experienced. It is NOT the aegis of one man's ministry. Once the priesthood is more fully prepared across the earth, it frankly doesn't matter who does what, the same Presence will be manifest in every location where saints gather. They will know it and recognise it.

A kind of Fork Happened

Part of a Conversation Daniel Yordy and I are having about some of the significant trends and leadings of various saints that bring us to today's knowledge of the third level or third Feast Christianity.

 Today's thinking, Daniel is that Jessie Penn Lewis's visit to Norman Grubb...(or maybe it was the other way round....may have been a ladies meeting or something) was really significant.
Because I maintain things kinda forked at that point!!!
God seems to have let this happen regardless to gain greater glory.
I refer to the fact that Jessie HAD AN AGENDA straight out of her Welsh revival past. GET NORMAN baptised in the Spirit. But the truth is "we" can't get the work of God done. Everything that does happen....of any reality...is totally wrapped up in one person's soul being caught up in the purposes of God. God forces nothing on anyone, and neither can we!!!
So the fork I speak of, is that Norman was never baptised in the Spirit as later charismatics would understand it. But as i have already posted, something of absolutely huge, perhaps greater significance happened. In that couple of hours Norman, just by being in the presence of Jessie, caught the thing he'd been pressing into for two years. Galations 2:20.
He just knew that he knew. And the rest....all 60 -70 years of it, in terms of how he sought to define it, culminating in the amazing book "Yes I am" IS HISTORY.
However, what somehow happened was that whereas Rees Howells and his son's Bible College was to spearhead both Bryn Jones and Rheinhardt Bonnke, both of whom have had highly visible impact in the UK, and especially Bryn, who with Arthur Wallis, organised those amazing Dales Bible Weeks, and Capel and the Lakes.....somehow Norman was not to feature. So we still have in our country, as in the States and elsewhere this huge kind of corporate version of "YOUNG MAN" Christianity, burgeoning out of all proportion to its actual relevance.
Just as swanning around the wilderness for a huge 40 years, when the actual journey was but 11 days in distance, also became far too huge an event, in relation to the actual task at hand.....TAKING OVER THE PROMISED LAND.
So, today, God TV, most of contemporary churches,ministries, seminaries have all got waylaid and forgotten the primary task at hand.
Christ in you the hope of glory.
And how to get folk up and running with that consciousness in the shortest possible time period. Who knows? We may get it down to 11 days yet?
They'd be blisteringly difficult days though eh?
Am I making too much of that Daniel? I just think it was a huge event that didn't happen.
But if you read the history of the first family....Jacob, his wives and his sons, you will find no different a story.
I mean we could say the rivalry between Jacob's wives, the issue with Joseph and his brothers, Judah's big error with Tamar.....all this we could say was a whole load of huge unnecessary diversions and rivalries....
But God nevertheless INCLUDED IT ALL IN HIS HISTORY
And somehow the two divided houses of evangelicalism and charismatic/pentecostalism....is just the same sort of story. In the broad sweep it sems so unnecessary and obvious as God shows us more light...
but somehow we seem to have had to go through it all
And God is still JUST AS LORD!!!

19:57

Chris Welch

If one was to do a description of Linda Bunting's meetings or Sylvia Pearce's meetings, or the role say of Zerubbabel group.... the realworld descriptions would be one thing....but the internal changes and God's actual Living Word to the different people concerned would be quite another description.
So, in the same way, here is an "outer description" of how the shape of things went in England. As a description it is really honestly written with no axe to grind, by an insider.....but if that was ALL that was going on, I'd be seriously disappointed. It isn't ofcourse. The Rivers of Living Water continue to defy boundary, and description....they are....ALIVE you see. And one of the conduits is writing this now!!!! But he's unheard of!

Restoration History

www.deemat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

David Matthew: Christian teacher and writer. Articles on Christian doctrine and practice. Course materials. Book reviews and quotations.

Part Two of How can you tell a 2nd level church ?- (and how, thankfully the Holy Spirit completely ignores the restrictions).

Completed -3.07am- Fri June 26th-Facebook note

In part one a foundation was laid describing how the Kingdom is about bringing the Heavenly Reality…that is the ways, attributes, functionings of heaven to earth. That there is now, and always has been a heavenly Tabernacle which was represented by an early prototype in Moses Tabernacle, then later by the Tabernacle of David, and later Solomon’s Temple.
The true Tabernacle and Temple
But Jesus said “I will tear down this temple (meaning His body now) and rebuild it in three days, signifying by what death He was going to die.”

Why , in this discussion is this important?

Because Jesus was going to do something no one had ever done before. Ever.
Outside of our time world, He had declared “Today, I have begotten you, It is written of me in the book, “I come to do your will O Lord.””

The Word that dwelt with the Father was not human, but God, present at the foundation of our known world. He was saying an Eternal “YUP”……
to becoming a containing vessel like us,
to becoming fully human
and to, (for the first time anywhere, ever,) bringing human flesh in its now glorified form
into the very Presence of the Father in the Holiest Place.
Never. Never. Never. Had anything like this ever happened.
Before this the Word had dwelt in the Presence of the Father….but never had a human.
So for the first time in heaven , now since the ascension, a human stands on the righthand of God the Father. And guess what? It gets better! He is interceding there for us. Why is that good? Just because He’s good at praying…so that us struggling little beings make it to the end of our lives without losing faith?
Nope.
His intercession is for us to catch the revelation on our insides that He has prepared a place for us. What, you mean rent-a home, on the outer reaches of heaven somewhere in the outer circle?
Nope. You’ve completely missed it.
He is not ashamed to call us brethren.
The place He has prepared for us fellow humans….. Fellow containers of God Himself is in this unheard of place that no one in their right mind in heaven would have even contemplated…


The very Holiest of Holies. This new place where human flesh can go and yet still live.
This is what is meant by
He has opened up for us by a new and Living Way……..
a place at the right hand of God
A place in the very heart of the Father
A place, in that sense that no angel can ever quite get near.
A redeemed place.
A place that Satan chose not for himself, in the midst of the full glories of heaven…yes by a very deliberate choice..
and we, in the face of appalling negatives, by faith, on earth, surrounded by very real opposites, have chosen…yes
God Himself.

Because we are containers of His glory…
God designed this picture of it:
A wooden (representing human flesh) Ark of the Covenant
covered on the inside and the outside with gold, representative of His Kingly glory.
Inside this Ark are the Two Tablets of the Ten Commandments.
This is Jesus life within us, in exactly the same way that Jesus on earth here , as a human, was a container for the Father’s life. He is the actual Law keeper within us.

So how does this affect us?
How does this affect us? Are you kidding? Nothing that we currently do can ever quite remain the same.

First some ground rules.
Did you notice how Nancy jumped in at the end of Part One and said this
"We have all three levels in us, when we have Christ in us"
and a few weeks ago when I was describing how it was now time for the Third level to be corporately manifested in the Church, she said "The mature Father level has always existed since the Church was born in Acts."
Do you remember me saying it is just as Ezekiel said...Wheels of prophetic outworking within wheels.
I describe this more in the Third Level audiomessage part 1 see picture link on my blog.
The arc , and probably the most important arc that Nancy is seeing began at the Cross, has always existed ever since and will culminate in ever increasing glory until the return of Jesus.

What I am declaring is quite specific and is no different , but perhaps stronger,with more clarity, than both Graham Pulkingham and later John Wimber. God's tide is no different than a gradually rising incoming sea tide. It comes in and goes out in individual waves, but the net effect increases until hightide is reached.I speak of the revelation of the Church, both local and corporate, which in the Spirit have little to differentiate them.

Something ,as I have stated repeatedly on my blog, of unique importance happened around 1906 as a man called Evan Roberts lay , conducting meetings, face down on a Welsh chapel floor. Yes, the return of the Holy Spirit supernatural form of Christianity returned in Wales,The Black Forest and Azusa St, but something even more incredible was happening. It was the birth of a Church actually beginning to function corporately, and not just as a man in a pulpit pulled strings. This was the Order of the Holy Spirit.The Order of heaven. A manifestation of the all but forgotten heavenly realm that Jesus Our High Priest moves in, the Melchizedek order of Hebrews chapter 7.


These sort of waves, only God knows about. Specific historic timings in God.

What Nancy is talking about is our foundation.
The Cross favours all or it favours no one
Jesus died to bring absolutely everyone back into a full and complete restoration to God the Father.
"The Fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily in My Lord (the song from Colossians says)and we are complete in Him." We have everything pertaining to life and godliness in Christ NOW." We don't need to go up for it,that's to bring Christ down, we don't need to go into hell for it, that is to bring Christ back out of His sacrifice. As stupid as it may seem to our left-brains locked into what we can see hear touch and taste....our lives may not look like what we consider is Him....but if we just believe ON Jesus, on the very Power of His Life within us,He has promised to bring us ably to full maturity. It is not dependant on us willing and striving, it is dependant on the Power of His Life to get us there, from wherever we may be now.
Is that not rather cool?
As I stated in Part One, the order, the timing,the way,is entirely up to Him...providing we keep our hearts open to Him and don't as it says...harden our hearts, or allow any root of bitterness to rise up and take us clean out of His plans for us.This is why we encourage one another. Not just with friendly words...but because our words have spiritual power and strength as they come from the Holy Spirit.
As insane a thought as watching a cell divide and so develop into a complicated human Body....I mean the initial division doesn't look anything like it will look...so in the Spirit, our initial experiences may seem to be of absolute irrelevance to what we're aiming for. But that is just the nature of this present universe!!!!
The second ground rule
In every church, however dire,even the ones that have no idea about the gospel based on the finished work of Christ and not of works.....somewhere even there, is the stubborn "twinkler" in God who has somehow in this parched desert environment,reached full maturity in God...though he or she is blessed if she can tell why....they just...well....and tears fill their eyes at this point.....are in love with God...you see.

I know the Holy Spirit is a gentleman etc, and doesn't force Himself on anyone....yet I have noticed , because He only sees a full complete work of Christ at the Cross...He does tend to ignore the religious restrictions and mindsets of His people. Quite often He shocks those with little or no faith, byanswering their prayers and absolutely clearing someone's body of cancer. This is because when you are All powerful, and a full and complete annhihilation of all the Devil's works has been accomplished by the Son, Your co-worker at the Cross....it is terribly easy , by accidentally flicking your finger a bit too much, to 150% answer someone's prayer when they are only in faith for 10%. This is what is meant by He is well able to accomplish far above what we can even dream or think.

The power of the Word and faith over decades seems to have sufficient power to bring on even those who have spent their life kicking and screaming against loss of control, and baptism in the Holy Spirit, such that even they too reach an incredible maturity. It's just that the original plan for the Church was that this take 3, 4,5 years and not 70. If the disciples took only 3 years, what is possible in the Holy Spirit according to Jesus phrase "Greater things than these shall you see".

So the Holy Spirit is continually ignoring any first and secondlevellers plea for the quiet life, and rudely sends thirdlevellers in whose job it is, as it says in Isaiah, to stir the nest of the eagles, that they may be pushed out and forced to find their wings.

In general the Holy Spirit ignores all man made traditions and ideas of what Christians think Christianity is, to continually get believers to read of their position in Ephesians chapter 1 and 2, and in Colossians and Romans. He even gets the complete Bible to be read out in Anglican Churches. And gradually at least some start to get the hang of the radical stuff that Jesus has done for us.

The third ground rule
What is meant by a first, second or third level church?
Well according to the Tabernacle picture, a church that does not accept it's need for the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross to re establish and reconnect people back to God the Father, does not understand the brazen altar at all, and as such have not even begun to enter the real Presence of the Living Lord.
They are doing acts of religion, but the reality is not inside them, in their hearts.We have to ASK Jesus in.
No I am talking about the three personal and corporate stages of maturity as outlined in 1 John 2:12ff "Children, young men,fathers." This is spiritual development , not age.
It is not possible to have a church full of people at one level, nor, as in life, desirable.It is not like a school. No , I am talking "destination".
Imagine buses. Say London ones : Watford, Golders green , Marble Arch,Waterloo station,say. ie going south. So you wish to get to Waterloo, but your bus only takes you to Golders green (incidentally it's Jewish).
A first level church will only take you as far as evangelicalism. Faith in Christ. A basis of faith for living.
A secondlevel church can either like Keswick, point you to the exchanged life, or be charismatic, and teach you functionally about entering into, and moving in the Power of the Spirit.They are rarely both, I have found.
A thirdlevel church, has as its end goal, mature sons of God. Now, as we will see, every other level will claim they do this...because no one likes to think of themselves as immature....but the Holy Spirit will soon find you out if you are faking it.
So, I recommend looking into the destination on your church wall...it will save future frustration.
The fourth ground rule
If you have ever read the Intercessor magazine produced by the people Norman Grubb was with called Zerubbabel, or if you have read my blog " 080808 On,now,to the third level" you can be excused for mistaking "the independent self" teaching and Christ as me in my form, for the third level.
This is NOT so. Sorry. The believing of these things into being is equivalent to the reckoning that goes on in Romans 6 and 7. It is NOT Romans 8,9,10 11 and 12....which actually, as Nancy points out with Norman, IS the third level.
The third level is like Ephesians, where you have spent Chapters 1 to 5 being matured into a position of KNOWING who you are in God. Then ON that basis....and only that basis....you move into battle and intercession as described in Ephesians 6. The THIRD level is the Poured Out Life for Others. You can have all the theory...but if the "fruit" of John 15 is not popping out the end of your branches...well, you ain't got it....or else, as it says, you are going through another season of pruning.

By the third level, you are not allowed your little quirks anymore,(quirks being what you personally like to believe in because it suits you. Jesus is King, and He decides what you get to believe in.)
You have to be what Smith Wigglesworth calls Word and Spirit.
If before, you were exchanged life....but had great hangups about Toronto...and you were blowed if you were going to stagger about looking silly....and you were going to remain in control at all costs....
Guess what?.....You can forget that! The Holy Spirit is coming to tickle you....so you lighten up!!
If before you were charismatic...with a particular predilection for funny tic noises and movements at strange times.......well, you're going to be learning about the Exchanged life, that you've skilfully avoided up until now....hmmm.....BIG TIME.

How can you tell a 2nd level church ?
The easy thing would be one sentence here. Read Jack Fortenberry's "Corinthian Elders",Darin Hufford on Free Believer's Facebook blog, and Stephanie Macentire. They have all done an excellent job at nailing the externals of 2nd level churches. They don't call it that, but that's what it amounts to.

There are two types. Some that are really quite happy and will remain as they are for years, maybe forever. Some, like Havant, or Rob Rufus's church in Hong
Kong "City Church International" are genuine "seeking the Lord as the face of the God of Jacob type churches". Perhaps they are TWOPLUS. If the hunger is genuine, you just know they are going to meet with God as a Church, as indeed He is doing.
TWOPLUS churches are interesting because certain Thirdlevel facets are already arriving.

I hope it's not too much exposure to say Havant are already pretty dead to "ministries". In the third level you just are ministry...so you don't bother ever talking about it.Most people in Havant are extremely prophetic...but they don't talk about that with anyone. Rather they talk about opening up wells of healing...that is the current faith challenge. In Havant, leaders are not always prominant at all.Christine and I spent 8 or 9 months not knowing John and Wendy Wilbraham were the pastors.There is a very high participation level. These are all good features.The best meetings are the Key of David meetings.I feel slightly less like a kamikazi suicide bomber in these when I bring some snippet of what I'd really like to share lots about.

You have to go through the young men reckoning stage to get to be a thirdlevel church.Many churches have made the charismatic realm a dead-end, with no vision for ever going further.These I am calling 2ndlevel churches.The destination on the church wall is 2nd level only .

First and secondlevel churches have this feature. Control.
They are still to some extent absolutely locked in their left-brains.Locked into step by step thinking. Pulling strings. They're frightened God won't show up, so they won't allow Him to be God.

Related to this, but by far the biggest feature underneath everything, they are still locked in the delusion of the independent self. This is the lie that the devil sowed in Genesis 3:5. that if you just take of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil you will be like gods....able to be self-running beings in your own right. It sowed the lie about the Father being a rather distant angry God who doesn't really love us nor want the best for us, which has remained inside us for millennia. And it failed to say that there is no independent position anyway, so we switched by default to being run by Satan himself....for as Bob Dylan sang...we gotta serve somebody....and we became containers for another deity, little d....the devil.

2ndlevel churches universally don't want to hear this....and consequently cannot take on board huge sections of New Testament scriptures. They are like the multitude listening to Jesus message "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you cannot have life within yourselves." And nearly everyone withdrew saying "This is a hard saying". This is the gospel of the Exchanged Life that very few want to hear. (Read Sylvia Pearce "Two deliverances at the Cross)

2nd level churches, in my experience, spend little time in Romans, Colossians and Ephesians. They have little or no overarching revelation on these, so therefore cannot begin the reckoning process needed for them to break into the third level. "Break in" is a good phrase, because it describes the energy needed as violent men/women of the Spirit, to take the Kingdom by force.

2nd level churches believe that Romans 6 and 7 is a repeat of Romans 3,4 and 5, which it isn't, it describes instead a new phase entirely.

Relationships are enormously affected by these lacks, because by not knowing properly who they were, and who they now are, they are unable to fulfil the scripture "henceforth we see no man after the flesh"...for their entire walk is to see people after the flesh, as independent beings.

I began part One describing John the Baptist very deliberately. Charismatic pioneer ministries today like Morris Cerullo, Rheinhard Bonnke, David Hathaway, Youth With a Mission, all stride the globe at a rate of knots, leading people into 2ndlevel revelation. It is true to say they almost bust a gut doing so, while secretly being very frustrated that so few are out there helping them.

Third level ministry is of such a higher order, that asJesus said about the Kingdom as to John the Baptist, so it is to the current "flatout" ministries....."the least of these is greater".


Why? Morris Cerullo's gospel, Benny Hinn's gospel, only talks about salvation and deliverances.
Well, you can deliver someone and then 7 times as many devils can come back in. But the thirdlevel gospel gets the root....Jesus said "I came to lay the axe to the root".

So as fast as Winkey Pratney(YouthWithAMission training course) is training up a friend of mine who came into Bible House Emsworth with me later, just as fast this lad is marrying, getting divorced, and having to completely rebuild his life, because at no point....even in all the subsequent Word of Faith teachings of the Copelands which he attended, were the real roots of the gospel explained or preached to him.

Out of my whole Live in Community Bible College I attended, very many have divorced already, and even a surprising number are dead. It is a very dangerous thing to half build the Tower of God. We expose ourselves to ridicule and open ourselves to much danger spiritually.

2ndlevel Christianity does not work. It is flawed. Even in the time of Israel, all of them were intended to go right into the Land, not die in the Wilderness. 2ndlevel Christianity was NEVER meant to work....it was only ever meant to be a through stage to get to the third level.

If you are a 2ndlevel leader it is exhausting, because nobody reaches the stage where they take your place as a father ministry. This leaves only one option:install a leadership that you can trust while you remain at the top of the pyramid.Who can you trust? Well on the one hand it's the blessing of God that your kids have followed you into the Kingdom....but it's quite another to say they should be given positions over the same work....and especially if you are still the string puller at the top.And where do you get the idea that YOU do the installing anyway? A man's gift makes way for itself. All a ministry is, is the grace ability to move people on inthe Spirit by transplanting Christ, transplanting Word. What's this CEO corporation you are building anyway?

So you are left with a bunch of unmotivated disappointed people who believed Christianity should work, but plainly doesn't, and now you have to work twice as hard motivating them to keep coming. Ofcourse huge numbers come in the front door of the church and walk straight out the back.

2ndlevel churches don't get the Cross and the Communion as Sylvia Pearce has shared.
If you are in a 1st or secondlevel church watch the Communion closely. Outside the revelation of the Holy Spirit it is almost impossible to maintain the right tone with the Communion.

It either becomes extremely heavy and as in Transubstantiation in Catholic churches...possibly very weird indeed...if not connected to simple faith....
or as in most new Protestant independent churches...an incredible levity bordering ludicrous.There will be an appreciation of the Blood of Jesus, but nearly no revelation at all on the Body of Christ.
Why?
This Body revelation (see Two deliverances at the Cross article by Sylvia Pearce June 2010 on my blog.) is precisely the missing ingredient which takes you on to the Third level.

Likewise 2ndlevel churches have no real idea how to maintain the wonderful Presence of the Lord in meetings, when outside. There is a similar kind of effect to Communion goes on. Struggling not to be too spiritual, nor to revert back to the flesh.....(it's an awkward time)

when ofcourse once your interior believing has changed in the third level....you are fully convinced of who it is living your life AND YET

it's not theory, because for some months ,years,decades you have learned to distinguish between "independent believing" and believing in your new life as Christ as you....having your senses trained as mature people ....

In the 2ndlevel , because you do not know who you are with any confident assurance, you put intolerable pressures on your congregation, on your spouse, your children, all those around you.

You spend way too much time organising outreaches not realising your extreme Body Odour is making people run a mile.

2nd level churches arrange house groups or cellgroups of people that normally would not be seen dead together. In one sense this is good discipline, to learn to relate to those you would not ordinarily be with. On the other hand, if you taught the gospel properly, so that as Paul said....I looked for Jesus crucified among you....and by this time, that everyone knew in the Spirit that they
have all died with Christ and that
it is not them who live, but it is Christ who lives within them....
such a savour of Christ is now swirling around...
like in the best Key of David meetings...

that you actually do want to spend the rest of eternity together like the Fisherfolk Community with Graham Pulkingham.

I was in a community where , at the highpoint there were 30 all together in a standard three storey house in Emsworth. It fell to me to build the rabbithutches...then using much of the same technology I built 3 x 2 bunkbeds for us lads. OK, we were all cramped together....but our hearts were never melded, so one person's bunk could have been a million miles away. We had separate existences because we were a 2ndlevel church...so none of us knew who we were yet.

2ndlevel churches are filled with political intrigue. They are pyramid shaped with a pastor at the top.The devil only understands pyramids. God the Father builds open relationship families.
2ndlevel churches have hidden and open structures. They have pecking orders.

1st and 2ndlevel churches have a reality problem. This becomes more intense, not less after having been baptised in the Spirit, because you now know for certain that God exists, and you are familiar with His actual Presence. Then like Peter at the Transfiguration, you have to go down in the valley again and face all the problems in the real world. Romans 8 does not deny the real world....the persecutions , the sufferings, the problems. Rich Novek's series of posts in May on my blog are excellent on this:
Seeing God only. No more compartmentalising. All of life is His unfolding plan.Even those "drawings"and "pulls" you're not telling anyone about.It's Him, not in the sense that He is doing the drawing...for as James says God tempts no man....but He means for us to face choices....it is not outside our "earth curriculum".


What do we desire? It is legitimate to own up to what is pulling us....but what do we do with it? This is seeing God in everything. We proclaim the truth about what God has done for us in the midst of "how it looks" to our eyes. We allow the Genesis figleaves to be ripped away. We allow our shame to be covered by Jesus all sufficient Blood Covering, but we go further , believing on His very Life to birth in our being His very life...which isn't just the absence of a particular sin.....it's so far the opposite...that when later we face say a roomful of people with "stealing" problems...we irradiate them with the grace glory of Jesus own" giving" kind of life.



Helen Rubio made a fantastic point (see her message Helen Rubio and the Russian Dolls on my blog).
She made the point that she doubted if we could go a lot further in advancing in worship in what is called the 3rd heaven...without going a lot further in our daily walk. Ofcourse this is said very much from a 2ndlevel framework.

The truth is.....you bettya! 2ndlevel worship is so bowed down by shame, and people wrestling with their feelings of inadequacy, because nobody has preached to them what Paul is actually writing, and what Jesus is actually saying that....yes there is a huge ceiling on our present corporate worship.
Learn the 3rd level walk and boy will the corporate level of praise and worship fly!!!!

At the moment the whole thing is a bit "ass about face" because people are trying to get into something Jesus put them in 2000 years ago. They are using the CDs of Hillsongs in a rather manic way, to plug the hole left by rather weird onesided preaching as to the true nature of the human condition.


And they wonder why it doesn't work.
So 2ndlevel churches duly send their worshipleaders off to get more training and anointing....when what they really need is to sit down and "get" the 3rd level teachings.

2ndlevel churches either struggle for cash, or make the gospel look ludicrous by using crass commercial (Jerusalem moneylender) techniques for clawing in the dosh.

The real point of the 3rd level is this. The Holy Spirit Himself brings us to the Romans 12 point of offering ourselves as a sacrifice. In my experience, this is not really a repeated thing...it is a defintion God brings us to.
Without that point being reached, you are going to spend your life as 2ndlevel churches cajoling,pleading,preaching repeatedly,generally pulling your hair out....
but the one thing necessary has never been faced...

they follow one leader
they have a handful of doctrines
they have never decided to be that person offering themselves FREELY in the day of Power
they follow man not God
they have never heard anyone preach many of the doctrines in the NT
they certainly have never heard one message on hebrews 7 about the Melchizedek order
they still think if you give money to God you'll run out
they've never grown up and they never intend to grow up
for faith comes only by "hearing"(gaining a spiritual capacity to hear) and hearing by the Word of God.
they live in cliques and sects.
they relegate all NOW words of God like Martha to the day of resurrection

they are 2ndlevel
Cindi Estep and Francois Du Toit like this.
Francois Du Toit check out Athanasius on the Incarnation, http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_1
Yesterday at 12:12 · Chris Welch thanks Francois will do
Yesterday at 12:22 · Cindi Estep Wow Chris! I will read over again a time or two, maybe three or four! Much to absorb here....To see Him in everything! Blessings ♥
Yesterday at 13:11 · Chris Welch Think I will too Cindi
Yesterday at 17:13 · John Madden thanks Chris and Joanne
19 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

The Order of the Holy Spirit

One Hundred years ago something started to shift.
Something seismic happened, which the devil wanted to make sure never happened again.
So , in direct response, his ragings increased something like 10 fold. History is now there for everyone to see, but in the space of one short century, lest we concentrate any more time and energy to what just happened in Wales and Azusa Street and the Black Forest in Germany, he pulled and nudged and guided and directed left-brain locked humans:
into two world wars
inwhich callous generals sent wave after wave of human flotsam into the path of new killing machines in trench warfare
he inspired men to think it a good idea to arrange for themselves an Acts paradise of shared property and possessions without new birth and by superimposition from above in the name of atheism (Communism by way of Marx)
and to do this in such a way that in both Russia and China the biggest swathes of indiginous population up until this date were simply vaporised at the whims of dictator leaders.

Using age-old spiritism on one side and a hubristic left-brain hook-up on the other, he inspired the cleverest nation on earth to think they were weaving for themselves a completely new salvation that somehow involved the Aryan race, and the destruction of every living Jew in range by means of a clever mass organised purpose-built infrastructure that involved gas ovens.
And so the century continued, interspersed with other huge scale disasters such as the 1918 flu pandemic which killed more than the rest of the First World War.

Through the direct cat and mouse influence of one totally given to his schemes, the devil-inspired Chairman Mao Tse Tung, the Americans were drawn in hook line and sinker to a war that was impossible to win in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, the pincer movement back in the west was to so use the domestic disillusionment caused by this raging to further lock people up in their left-brains, such that by now all intelligentsia were now continuing in the very thought processes that had led up to the second world war in Germany..."the fact that clearly God was dead", "church was finished" and all that remained was the French philosophic movement of Sartre and Camus and existentialism. I was in University at the very tail end of this and read every so often of another student's death as in direct logical conclusion, another would hurl him or herself to her death off a high building.

So what was this thing that the devil was so sure he did not want further investigated?

Listen! It wasn't just the rediscovery of the baptism in the Spirit and the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit as principally outlined in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and referred to continuously if not obliquely at several points in Acts, as well as phrases such as "laying on of hands" in Timothy, and "powers of the age" to come as in Hebrews.

No.Something far greater was happening on the floor through Evan Roberts. Something that has scarce been mirrored since through nearly 100 years of programmed, progressive Pentecostal effort.

It was a COMPLETELY new Order. The Order of the Holy Spirit.
Where the One actually sent to prepare a Bride for the Son was allowed to fulfil His task, probably for the first time in such a corporate way since the Book of Acts was first written.

Now although, initially , in Wales at least, it was only one man who really got this order, who really understood how to move with it, a man called Evan Roberts, IT was Never
I repeat Never
I repeat Never
the Holy Spirit's intention to ever again raise up another human pyramid around a charismatic man,
a charismatic leader,
who would continue the line that the devil began in the garden
after his own order
which always involves pyramids of power based on the most willing to fall into line with his whims.
The devil only understands pyramids.
It's how he runs his own unseen kingdom.
Anyone falling into line with his unseen kingdom will build according to this pyramid.
The most obedient will look like the Italian mafia. Or Chinese Chairman Mao. Or Russian Lenin and worse still Stalin.
The less obedient will look like
Bill Johnson
Joseph Prince
Morris Cerullo
Benny Hinn
Yongghi Cho
Terry Virgo
Frank Viola
People who cultivate a culture that revolves around them. Without meaning to.
Simply because they have never learned to listen to the prophetic.
That somewhere within them is a blueprint of "the fathers" and how they have always run things, rather than being diligent to seek out how the Holy Spirit runs His church
as laid out in new books appearing by people like Jack Fortenberry (Corinthian Elders).
And with each new insight or angle, these other charismatic dazzlers write a book in their name which further cements
the idolatrous notion of a symbiotic relationship in the people of God.

Remember, the same spirit that works in unbelievers to call the Apostle Paul Zeus one minute, then when he refuses to play ball, they stone him,
is the same spirit at work in the church....
To the extent that the "independant self delusion is not dealt with". (See the rest of the contents of this blog or read the link to Norman Grubb's book "Yes I am".)

If I may I will write that again.
To the extent that a gathering of believers do not believe or are muzzy about who they are now since the Cross, is the extent they are still able to be manipulated by the spirit that takes its blueprint from the devil's pyramid order.

So God has instituted a way of running things
that does not involve a Pastor at the head of it.
That does involve apostles and elders.
But obliquely and subtly.
Like Evan Roberts.

If you can understand how a man can run things face down on the floor.
Then you can understand the New Order.
If you can understand how a man can run things by appearing to do nothing directly then you can start to understand a third level church.
If you can understand Moses standing on a hillside with a battle raging, with two men at his side lifting his arms....then you are starting to see it.
If you can see a group of men kind of piggybacking each other in a kind of tag game, delivering the Word in sequence , in the sequence the Holy Spirit shows, as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and all in the powerful Presence of the Holy Spirit

such as we saw oh so briefly in the London brothers at Friends meeting House in 1974-5.
As we saw oh so briefly at the beginning of their influence in the 70s, the brothers in Fort Lauderdale , Derek Prince,Don Basham,Ern Baxter,Bob Mumford etc.that so radically changed the way we did things in Britain.

If you can see the outbreak in Toronto in 1994, and understand that although it appeared to revolve around the couple John and Carol Arnott- THAT WAS NOT THE SUM OF ITS STRUCTURE.

If you can start to see in the Spirit what He was wanting to start doing through the platforms of Lakeland ,Florida in 2008.....and those who were there, it was not simply to build around the one man flame thrower Todd Bentley, although we must honour him as the fire-starter...well this end of heavenly proceedings...

But an order was starting to form. The same order that would have matured a hundred years earlier if Evan Roberts not been knocked out of the flow.

Yes God uses ministries. Men and women. Yes there is a sort of structure to things. Kind of familial. Yes there is mutual respect. Actually it is more like a dance in the flow of the Holy Spirit.

But once people actually understand what a ministry before God is. Once people understand the first ever post I wrote which can be found in Dan's Vaults and on his site....which was the words of Ed Miller.
A ministry is just a taxi driver to the throne of God. Once he has brought a believer there, his role is finished.

Ministry, and in particular 3rd level apostolic ministry is simply the presentation of Christ as a believer. Laying the foundation of Christ AS that person in a believer.
Ripping away the false delusion of an independant self, so that a human being can begin for the first time to live as was always his or her destiny....knowing Christ in them as them.

The point of what we are calling the Key of David way of running meetings is that believers experience this new order.
That they learn how to function in it, as was happening in Florida, and now appears to be continuing in IHOP Kansas.

All the men in the ministry list above are people with a David heart. Yongghi Cho even calls himself David.
But the first David, probably through exhuberance, and a lack of due diligence

returned the Ark to Jerusalem on a New cart. He was returning to "the fathers way of doing things"...by this I mean, not his spiritual fathers...because he would have then known to do it right, according the Levitical pattern...
No I mean "fathers" in the generic sense.
The way the world does things. The humanly expected method. The way that does not involve knowing the heavenly pattern. The default "pyramid" pattern that was drawn up by the father of lies. The one that does not involve relationship. Sensitivity.

A pattern which may not reveal itself straight away, but one that emerges pretty soon in the form of anger, frustration, fear, domination, and ultimately if not corrected
ICHABOD - the Glory is gone.

I believe when we receive revelation and the manner we receive revelation to be important. Like the heaps of stones, the waymarkers of the patriarchs.

I received the revelation of the New Cart way of doing things, the incorrect way, in precisely this context. Now God never allowed me to bring what I was seeing, He used me to bring something else. But it all surrounded, funnily enough in the context of this post, Wales.

I was in a Cinderella role in a Welsh Conference quietly helping out with some children's work. Actually not in the meetings at all. This was around 1983. There was an oppression affecting all of us. One aspect to it was some kind of Jezebel spirit coming through the women as well as control I guess coming through the men.
So the leader doing the kid's work and myself really gave ourselves to intercession. Actually we had no choice. Our guts were gripped by such an intense feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, and here we were trying to look a bit encouraged for the conference kids. Precisely then, and in that conference did I then get this whole gripping revelation about charismatics bringing the Ark back home on a New cart. But it is not until this blogin the last 2 years, that I have seen so clearly what we have been doing.
As soon as I got this clear breakthrough in revelation, the very next morning absolutely everybody was called into the main hall to seek God together. God used me to give a breakthrough prophetic word for the conference. I think that was my first in a conference setting. It was a clear prophetic promise concerning the significance of that conference for the whole of Wales. At that time there was so little happening in Wales as compared with England.

A breakthrough Word sets the tone of a conference or meeting. It is like an invasion of the Kingdom of God into what may have felt up until then quite a staid, normal human gathering, with nothing happening.

I am sharing this, not to draw attention to myself, but simply to say this post has already had accompanying signs to it. The material is not new, although it comes with greater clarity.
If we want the glory of God to return to God's House, we have to learn to do things according to the heavenly pattern and be extra diligent about not building any more symbiotic Zeus Clubs.
********************
This post was nudged by this Facebook post below and my personal desire to nail exactly what my misgivings are with people being so evidently used by God like Bill Johnson and Rob Rufus and Joseph Prince.
New Creation Church Is NOT A Cult!Share
Stanley Wong
Sunday, 07 February 2010 at 23:30
For the past few weeks, I have been playing Joel Osteen's DVD sermon, "A New Season of God's Mercy (Favour)", at my stall over and over again. Last Saturday, a first-time customer saw the DVD sermon and warned me to be careful of his teachings. She learnt that I was from NCC and immediately gave me a disapproving look and told me to "be careful of these cults; their teachings are not based on the bible". She also said that the preachers are promoting themselves only.

Despite she being my customer, I could not resist telling her off. I told her that she can disagree with NCC's teachings but she cannot label NCC as a "cult". It seems that the term "cult" is freely thrust upon any church that does not seem to conform to the preaching or theologies of mainstream/traditional churches, especially if the church in question does not belong to any recognized denomination. I'm sure that Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals and other denominations differ and disagree with one another on certain aspects of theology but you don't hear their church members labeling the other churches as cults.

Since 17 Dec 2008, I have been regularly attracting hits on my blog through google search. Anyone want to venture a guess on the googled keywords? Yes, you've guessed right: "new creation church cult" (see picture, left) and the reason why google direct them to my blog is because of the article I posted on 17 Dec 2008 - "Is New Creation Church a cult?".


In that post, I reprinted an article which described the characteristics of a cult, and I think it is worthwhile to reiterate the key points of that article here:

1. A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers.

2. The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

a) A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

b) A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person.

c) A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

The three elements listed above are very successful ways to create a group mentality, an us-against-them way of looking at things. This is essential for any cult that wants to keep its members. The more afraid of the outside world the members become, the more strongly and faithfully they will keep within the safe fold of the cult.



I regularly attend New Creation Church's Sunday worship service together with my family and about 19,000 other people, and from my personal experience, I can tell that we are not a bunch of tightly controlled zombies worshiping Pastor Prince. Pastor Prince himself has also encouraged us not to just blindly accept everything he says but to check his preaching with what we read in the bible for ourselves.


Pastor Prince's sermon CDs are available for sale at the Rock bookshop and on the online store, and those sermon CDs, which date from the year 2000 and represent hundreds of hours of preaching, are easily accessible to any critic who wish to mine for any evidence of Pastor Prince preaching heresy or focusing the attention and veneration of the members upon himself.

Sad to say, many of these critics shoot their mouths off based on hearsay rather than examining the evidence at the source. At this juncture, let me express my utmost respect for Pastor Kenny aka blogpastor who, in his blog post "Give Joseph Prince A Fair Hearing", said "Pastors should not just go by hearsay and what they read of others’ comments, but actually go to the source and give Joseph Prince a fair hearing: read his books or listen to his tapes. Put down your guns and set aside the warning label called “antinomian” for the time being, roll the sleeves, and do some honest research."

Without a doubt, Pastor Prince is a charismatic preacher but I challenge anyone to produce evidence of Pastor Prince preaching a sermon which promotes only himself. Every Sunday, we hear Pastor Prince preach only Christ and His finished work on the cross. Of course, not everyone agrees with all that he preaches, and over the years there have been people who left NCC because they could not accept his preaching but looking at how NCC has almost doubled from 10,000 members in 2004 to 19,000 today, it is obvious that many more have come than left. However, my point is not to boast about NCC's church growth but to highlight the fact that NCC's members are FREE to come and go, which certainly is NOT the characteristic of a cult.

About 2 weeks ago, a customer patronised my stall. I chatted with him and discovered that he also attends NCC. He said, "Coming to NCC was the best thing that happened in my life." He is not the only one to feel that way. I also feel the same and hearing the testimonies read in church every Sunday, I know quite a few others from America, Europe and other parts of the world feel the same too. Again, my point is not to boast about NCC but to highlight the fact that for every critic out there who objects to and disapproves of Pastor Prince's preaching, there are many more whose lives have been transformed for the better because their eyes have been opened through his sermons.

Am I asking you to agree with Pastor Prince's preaching? NO! I am asking you to listen to Pastor Prince's sermons and read his books for yourself before you condemn him, NCC and its members!! Don't you dare call NCC a cult without producing any evidence to support your accusation!!!

My reply and that of Geraldine Tan -Wee
Chris Welch The drawback with Pastor Prince is not Pastor Prince.The drawback is that it is like Acts 2 but with only Peter preaching.Now we know he was the first preacher, but he stood up with the other 11 surrounding him, and all of them were used to preach from house to house and probably in ongoing meetings. Pastor Prince as wide as he is on the very key subject of grace, needs the other 11, who have received the other revelations in God's Word. It would be like only feeding on Rob Rufus of Hong Kong or Ern Baxter in the 70s without all the other 70s preachers. Things Pastor Prince does not preach on yet, presumably because he hasn't met them yet, is "the dark night of the soul, and Romans 7 from this perspective, the Total exchange that took place at the Cross, and how we live our lives now Christ as me in my form, with my personality. He has that joy to come!!!
Today at 11:03 · Chris Welch But he is not a cultleader!
Today at 11:05 · Chris Welch For more light on all this read Jack Fortenberry's new book "Corinthian Elders". See my blog or Amazon
Today at 11:07 · Geraldine Tan-Wee The thing is this- the Holy Spirit teaches all things. PP(Pastor Prince, she means.Call no man father...or anything else for that matter! Receive them for their gift , yes, but the fruit is not your lips, it is actually hearing, understanding, and doing what they bring that you become a Living letter describing what they were bringing - then move onACW) does not have exclusive insight because the same teacher that teaches Him, teaches us. That said, some people have greater discernment than others. We all have the same source of wisdom, but not every one taps into it.

IMHO Why PP is a good pastor is because he boldly preaches grace without letting the naysayers faze him. And I am glad that he has a group of very good pastors (after 37 years of this stuff, this is a very chilling phrase indeed ACW)that also provide very interesting insight into the Word. Because most the sermons from our church that is shown overseas is that of our senior Pastor (just as Hillsong's is Brian Houston, CHC's is Kong Hee and Lakewood's is Joel Osteen, etc.) you have not met our other anointed pastors- Ps Matthews, Ps Gabriel, Ps Mark, Ps Lian, Ps Keith, Ps Christina, Ps Lawrence, Ps Benjamin, Ps Daniel, Ps Barnabas Kim, Ps Henry, Ps Darren, Ps Wee Soo Teck, Ps Joshua, .... hey! What do you know? That's more than 11 other pastors that share the pulpit and help lead the church along with him! =)

What is good is that he doesn't just feed the church members, he teaches them how to study the bible (and the writings of other grace based writers) in the right context. Most NCC-ers are able to discern the Word and study the Word in depth because sermons in NCC do go into the original Hebrew and Greek of the Word, as well as touch on biblical symbols and types. ... See more

And yes he is NOT a cult leader. I can still make my mind up about everything in my life. A cult leader won't allow that. =)

Today at 11:30 · ReportChris Welch It is very good that you write and make clear what is not clear to external televised audiences. Thankyou. I feel strongly the Holy Spirit is not letting your church off the hook though and I have tried to put it down in a long post here. Please understand I am not into destructive criticism.What the Holy Spirit is always doing is Yea and Amen ... ...Ever since the the 70s in our home town revival here in 72, followed by reading about Mel Tari, then subsequent meetings in London...I see the continuation of another order entirely emerging.
http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/order-of-hoy-spirit.html
17 minutes ago ·