By their fruit. So who's right?

Jonathan Brennemann shares

 https://www.harvest-now.org/index.php?id=50&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=424&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2017&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=04&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=01&cHash=1922a43925a034e9e6037ea67f263eda&fbclid=IwdGRjcAOVo7RjbGNrA5WjpGV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHjCMOZFpdObm9-XCPFy7IN0lmfk6ctJFotp3mF0GVzXD36VzdTGCUXZbZY1y_aem_pTsbksWeDw1VVbN2SnB1gQ

In one place, Western missionaries showed up and the church immediately stopped growing! Why?

It's easy to think as if the place we live is the center of the world, as if our culture's version of Christianity is the norm. But China, India, Iran, Indonesia, and Pakistan together hold over 3.3 billion people and 100 million Christians. 

These countries are among the places where Christianity is spreading the fastest and reaching those who never heard the gospel. Many Christians have been beaten and persecuted for following Jesus. They operate so differently that many Christians in the United States and Brazil would criticize them. But they have results that our churches can't replicate.

Andy Rayner shares how they asked a missions agency to care for a growing movement with 18 churches. The agency brought in five missionary families, and the church growth stopped immediately. After four years of stagnation, the agency asked them to return and help diagnose the problem. 

As they talked, the missionaries heavily criticized a certain uneducated, rural native farmer. Andy responded by asking how many churches they had planted there. "None." 

He replied, "Well, that farmer you are criticizing has brought the gospel to nine villages. With no pay, no salary, no expense money, no bible college training, and he did it without your fancy training programs designed to teach him, and the others how it's done. (Same for every community. No western money was used for salaries, positions, constructing church buildings etc.) I share his story, and how this farmer has more gospel living and church forming experience in his pinky fingernail, right now, than all five Western families will ever have in a lifetime, combined. So why don't we get out of the people's way?" 

The missionaries agreed to step back. A new church was planted in a month, and four new churches in three months. 

I keep challenging the religious status quo. Some people may get offended or claim these are new ideas and whoever is sharing them is rebellious, unteachable, and unsubmitted. But the truth is, I've had the humility to learn from the church worldwide, especially from movements planting thousands of churches in contexts that were considered the most difficult in the world, among people groups considered unreachable by others. 

Maybe those who can't learn from real apostles planting thousands of churches among the unreached, in the face of persecution, are the ones who are really stubborn and unteachable!

The religious may criticize me, but I ask, "What percentage of people in your church have seen someone healed or delivered from a demon as they prayed, or shared the gospel, in the last week?" I experience this every week, but many religious people think something's seriously wrong with how I think, but not with a paradigm that produces powerlessness

The church as we've known it has been quite ineffective at making disciples, producing Christian maturity, and fulfilling the Great Commission. So why don't we humble ourselves and learn from those who have been effective? 

Let go of human traditions and control. You stick to your role and let Jesus be the head of the church and the Holy Spirit build it. He can do a much better job than you can! Do what Jesus said to do, and stop doing what Jesus didn't say to do! What is the gospel message the apostles preached which gets the results the apostles got, turning the world upside down?

Is Facebook Church and the internet valid asks Jonathan Brennemann ?

 

Jonathan Brennemann asks 

Are Facebook and the internet valid ways to have "church?" They aren't perfect and may lack a few things, but many people receive more of what church is supposed to be on the internet than in "church services."

Churchianity is concerned more with appearances than with the heart. It's concerned with people "finding a pastor," but the Bible is concerned with pastors finding the lost sheep. It's upside down. The Bible is concerned with people actually being pastors, with real fellowship, relationships, life, not just appearances. Churchianity is often concerned with spectator events, hierarchies, and titles.

Churchianity doesn't understand that "walking alone" isn't always a sign of rebellion. Curry Blake said, "If you're going to walk with God, at some point you're going to have to walk alone." The apostle Paul said, "Everyone abandoned me." There was a time he had to walk alone. Jesus said the people were like sheep without a shepherd, not because they didn't have religious programs or leaders, but because those leaders were abusing them, not shepherding them. Paul said, "I have nobody like Timothy who genuinely cares for you."

So it is possible for people to be immersed in churchianity, have their "pastor," their "church" programs, and be lonely and like sheep without a shepherd.

I love face-to-face interaction, and I think it's important to seek it in some way. The early church met around a table, not around a sermon. The communion meal is one of the scriptural essentials and teachings of Jesus, and it's hard to really have what that is supposed to be without face-to-face interaction. Also, the laying on of hands is one of the foundational doctrines of Hebrews 6, and it happens in person.

But how much of what the Bible teaches actually happens in a typical church service, and how much happens on the internet? Communion happens maybe once a month and isn't really a meal in most cases in the church service. You can't have it as a communal meal online, although you can eat a wafer and drink a shotglass of grape juice on zoom just as you can in a church service.

The one-another commands? Teach one another, instruct, confess your sins, exhort, encourage, love...very little of that happens in the typical church service. The church functioning as the body of Christ as described in 1st Corinthians 11-14? Barely at all! I've never been in a church service that embodied all 1st Corinthians 11-14 describes. There's a big difference between Biblical Christianity and churchianity.

Many people experience far more of what is supposed to happen in the body of Christ on Facebook, Zoom, and online venues than in church services. When I moved to Brazil as a missionary, most abandoned me, and I found fellowship online.

I've experienced far more teaching each other, encouraging each other, confessing your sins to each other, exhorting one another, fellowship, seeing godly examples, godly counsel, and functioning as the body of Christ over Facebook than in any religious institution. Many have the same experience.

Really, ALL of the people who inspire and challenge my faith, I am connected with over the internet or in some other way, not in a local institution. Even when there are people whose life is a godly example in the local institution, the constant programs and busyness aren't a good context to allow people to see that example.

I see far more testimonies in one day on Facebook than I would hear in a year in most institutions. I have probably a few hundred friends who heal the sick and preach the gospel. Some of raised the dead. Every day, I see friends posting testimonies of deafness healed, the blind seeing, the lame walking, cancer gone, paralysis healed, sometimes the dead raised. I share more of God's word and testimonies and do more to encourage others on Facebook than I could in a local religious institution. If I want godly advice, the people who I feel I would like to talk to are are not in a local church. Many are on Facebook or WhatsApp. And our relationship is mutual, not "You're my pastor."

I have experienced far more miracles, words of knowledge, healing, and most of what is supposed to happen among us as the body of Christ over the internet than I feel would be possible in any local institutional church.

If I want edification, testimonies, good teaching, I go to YouTube and find there what I don't find in any local church. I watch a Jesus Encounter Ministries meeting, or listen to Curry Blake or Dan Mohler...

I believe it's ideal to also have face-to-face fellowship in some way, not necessarily in the way churchianity prescribes. But can we also have church over the internet? Is it valid?

Of course it is! Didn't Paul disciple and teach people through his letters? Were they not valid because he wasn't present face-to-face with them, even though he wanted to be?

I am aware of many people finding Christian fellowship primarily on the internet. Sometimes people immersed in Churchianity are judgemental of those who find fellowship online and not in their programs. But instead, they should be humble and realize that their programs are not edifying people, and what is happening in their programs is mostly not how the Bible says the body of Christ is supposed to function. People are going online to find what is lacking in their religious institutions!

I have both face-to-face fellowship and an extensive connection to the body of Christ worldwide over the internet. We have miracles happening all over the world, salvations, deliverance, godly counsel, repentance, exhorting and encouraging one another, and most of what is supposed to happen in church over the internet. And most of that is NOT happening in the religious programs.

People immersed in Churchianity think something isn't healthy in my life because I don't think in terms of "What church do you go to?" but in terms of relationship and healthy interaction with the body of Christ. I don't think in terms of "so-and-so is my pastor," but in terms of eldership, godly example, mutuality, relationships. They think I need help and correction, but I consider them to be living in spiritual poverty when riches are available, because they are experiencing very little of what church is supposed to be according to the Bible.

They think my relationship to the church isn't healthy, but I think that in most cases, it's far more healthy, involved, and extensive in almost every aspect than theirs is!

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My reply

YES but what is church ? Rabbi synagogue or ecclesia ,the word  God uses .

Id like to put this up on my blog.....because the questions stir people to see what God says .
You are using the same word church all the time but describing what is all over the world which is one rabbi synagogues then comparing that to the Biblical word and practice of ecclesia .Ecclesia is a very accurate word .
Called out peer group....which as I write this it dawns upon me that the devil has done the same with the word peer ....the Peers in the House of Lords is now the very opposite from what peer group means .

Ecclesia as you know is a called out group in Greek for political administration purposes,  but God uses it to get over the idea of
Gathering for His purpose....
Worshipping together and all the activities described by Paul , but with a Divine form of legislating also in the Spirit .
A declaring of the psalm 149 judgments written
A ruling as Paul says in the Spirit " Would that you were kings ." The breadth of ruling in the Spirit is called the Crown of 12 stars in Revelation 12.1.
As yet theres only beginners versions of many  things manifest with baptism in the Spirit .
I keep referring to the Bible and how the OT 12 elders came into being , and the NT elder apostles came into being through Jesus .
I keep referring to conferences of 3 to 5 days where we might see some or all of the three 1 Corinthian 12 diverses in action .
Because falling into the ground like grain ....
Because becoming like little children....relearning everything Proverbs 3 .6 but this time inside the whole of life exchange at the Cross Galatians 2.20
Because of the Abide in My Word  .....Truth ....freedom sequence

If people go through the New and living way of the Holy Spirit uprooting Genesis 3 independent godhood in my soul we quite literally come into the reign of God ....that is the Kingdom . That is the facing of the three control hooks the devil has in our being in the Lords Prayer ....money /supply /food / needs
Relationships in the form of not being bitter but forgiving
Pulls to do what God isn't doing....not necessarily overt sins either .

The life of God breaking out in a soul starts finding others in this freedom......thats what a bunch of conference speakers are but only for a few days .....that has to find local permanence as an ecclesia in a location. As long as persecution will allow.

The block everywhere is that different people types can't read each other . That's the 1 Corinthians 12.14-26 barrier both Jacobs sons and the apostles had to crash through .
Our human juries only last during a court procedure because people can't really stand each other Cross spectrum .
In the flesh these friction are called party spirit and schisms .
So thats what God is fixing to have all over the Earth like Acts Jerusalem church .
Its been done but its supernaturally accomplished. If we persist in the New and Living Way that's the City on a Hill , Light on a Hill effect  of the Word we are believing upon .
The pastor rabbi teaching centre isn't what a local ecclesia is . Its in the meaning of the word ecclesia .
This is what Bible Houses were training us in .....but we didn't have the articulation of Romans 6 to 8 yet until Norman Grubb .
This is the soul transformation process of which the born again baptism in the Spirit process is the exchange of the spirit man in the outer courts entrance to the inner courts at con version ......now in the holy place this is a transforming of soul . We don't exchange our soul ....Its just a vessel .....so it was subject to the devil.....now its being made subject to our new born again spirit which Colossians 3.3 in Greek says is intertwined like rope ( English hidden ) with Christ .
All this plus anointing produces what the 12 apostles were living together in .

Tabernacles the Feast is a series of open plan stable relationships.
In the Spirit its the 1 John 2 father realm where by now the Holy Spirit has brought forth some Christ in their soul and psalm 84....reveals them before God in Zion ....like conference leaders . But this should all be local if we obey the whole gospel.....not the cheapskate one leader version which doesn't PROVE Kingdom.

Jacobs sons
The 12 apostles
Were an early ' proof ' of Kingdom and still are because they are the 24 before The Throne .

A Body with power. Jonathan Brenneman, Chris Welch

Chris Welch
  There's something about pastor rabbi shaped synagogue style churches that is killing saints, killing evangelism, killing what Paul calls the King factor, the moving towards a spiritual authority in a location. Would that you were kings....notice...plural. Like OT Israel, like Jerusalem Church , there's a beautiful and mystical mix of authority through elders, people feeling relaxed to do what Jesus is doing through them spontaneously. In Acts we see what Jesus prophesied into being ....Now is Isaiah 61 fulfilled in your midst.....Now is the Kingdom of heaven at hand ....You are light on a hill ....a city on a hill. So we see Stephen and mercy ministries. We see Philip who I guess was just one of the evangelists. We see father level apostles going house to house. They were all doing outstanding miracles. There's 14 different ministries listed by Paul in 3 lists. Have your heart fixed on one ecclesia in one location as a demonstration of One Lord who can fix all sorts of personalities comfortably together if He is in our midst. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 describe the tender heart the Holy Spirit creates, coupled with tremendous authority that isnt like the world's pyramid authority which is purely a might is right system. We are eunuchs. "Do not lord it over one another as you see the Gentiles do." Believe for real ecclesia that really lifts up Jesus as Lord and sees all men drawn in unto Him. Jesus Presence isnt mushy. It's authoritative, clean holy , rich , loving yet it has God the Father's fear. What's that ? He fears lest He ever once should act out of self for self. he has sworn that He shall never lie. Satan is the Father of lies. We join God in His own godly fear, and His Presence is spread abroad so wonderfully like perfume. Who is up for real church? Like Jacob's sons and the apostles, can we get through the 1 Corinthians 12;14 -26 barrier and operate together as a whole spectrum of Holy Spirit people , honoring each other, and manifesting Kingdom instead of ONE PASTORDOM? Our generation was spoilt . We tasted all this in Jesus Move, and we can read it in Acts. It's not fiction !!!!

Jonathan's New book The Mechanics of Miracles

Healings are for all to move in

Jonathan Brenneman writes

I went to a church service last night, hoping to have some fellowship with friends, hoping they would go out or something after the meeting. I left frustrated. It was good for a church service...good songs, a more biblical message than most...

But it was another show. No fellowship. Little supernatural manifestation of God's grace. It would have been much better to stay home and spend time with my daughters.

As my understanding grows of how rich and how generous God is, I am increasingly becoming convinced that if the church doesn't have revival, it's because that's not what the church wants. If the church doesn't have God's grace manifesting supernaturally, healing, powerful prophetic words, people being set free from demons, people laughing with the joy of the Lord and weeping because they want their lives to reflect God's holiness, and all kinds of other manifestations of God's grace, it's because that's simply not what the church values.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. What revival has ever come without a message that offended some, requiring humility to receive? Read the instructions for Christians meetings in 1st Corinthians 11-14. The meeting included a meal, and every member flowing supernturally in God's grace with the various manifestations of the Spirit. Anything less was failing to discern the body of Christ and one member saying to the others "I don't need you." Read chapter 12 and tell me how a spectator event or one-man show is not in disobedience to these instructions. Chapter 13-the goal is love or we are like a noisy gong or clanging symbol. (Currently it usually feels like an event to hype the people up and keep them needing the people who get their tithes, keeping those people in control, growing the organizations' power and numbers....not really about the church edifying itself.)

Chapter 14, all can prophesy, if a revelation comes to someone else let the first one sit down and allow one or two other prophets to speak. And who are you to say women can't speak...did God's word originate with you? Finally, let everything be done in an order that facilitates the operation of the whole church as one body, with no member being left out.

If we dishonor any member of the body of Christ, we dishonor Christ. If Jesus wants to manifest himself in some way through anybody and our regular Christian meetings don't facilitate that, then it is as if Jesus showed up but we didn't have room in our program for him. When most members are doing nothing to build up the whole body of Christ in our meetings, it is as if the body of Christ in that place is paralyzed.

This is just one example of how it is pride that is keeping the church from revival. Scripture's commands are clear. Romans 15 says you are brimming with knowledge and able to instruct each other. Colossians says to teach and exhort each other. Hebrews says "By this time you should be teachers."

That is not to say we can "NEVER" have a big meeting with a special speaker, or that there isn't a context for it. Jesus and the early church had big meetings, but they were mostly evangelistic, not for regular fellowship or discipleship. There are times when a visiting speaker comes who is building up the church, we have a special meeting, that's totally legit.

But many church communities have NO context in which they obey the Biblical instructions for a regular meeting. Even the small groups and weekday meetings are often like miniature church services, spectator events.

Humility receives corrections and obeys. Pride says "We do it this way, it really isn't so bad." I'm finding locally that many people just want to do what they've done before, they think they are rich but they are living in spiritual poverty. They like their church services and then when people aren't edified and don't find God's grace flowing or any opportunity to obey Jesus in their meetings, they call those people "unchurched."

They think they can do church fine. There's no dependance on the Holy Spirit, saying "Holy Spirit, help! We can't do this without you! It's no good if you don't move, touch people, and do what only You can do! We yeild to You." They don't have revival because they don't want it, and they would have it if they did. Some of the very people in that service went to a restaurant with me and saw the whole staff receive prayer with everyone in need receiving healing miracles....but they don't have that happening in their church services and they are happy with the way it is. Some of them have seen us pray for people outside of church services and they fall on the concrete under God's power, no emotionalism. They have seen that, they know it's available. Why don't they have it in their church services? They Holy Spirit's work and what only He can do is not what is valuable to them. It's not what's important to them. They have their pastor and their program.

So by now it's so hard to even sit through their program, especially if they sing songs about wanting revival and I know they don't.

If we aren't having revival, then pride needs to be confronted, and it is going to offend some people. There is no revival without repentance. There is no change without first recognizing that you need change, that you are poor, blind, and naked if you're doing it on your own power, and that you are helpless without the Holy Spirit. And then there is no change if we do not change. God says "Listen to my reproof, and I will pour out my Spirit on you."

Price hack: The Mechanics of Miracles is now available as an audio book. The Audible Book is 8.99 by itself, but if you have bought the kindle version first, which is currently on the 99 cent promotional launch price, Amazon gives the option to add the audible book for $1.99. You get the kindle and audible book for 2.98 rather than just getting the audible book for 8.99!

Enter a "new normal" of God's glory and miracles! After experiencing thousands of miracles over the last 19 years, missionary Jonathan Brenneman shares nearly 100 supernatural testimonies and a detailed study of how God’s invisible Spirit manifests tangibly in power among us.

“I probably have more than two dozen healing works on my shelf published in the last few years. Some of these works are quite good, but I don’t think any of the authors have gone where Jonathan has gone. I would consider him an expert on this topic.”

-Pastor J.D. King, Author Regeneration: A Complete History of Healing in the Christian Church

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